Houston, (OK, Atlanta) Do we have a problem?

kelly - Put Sheed in a trio of KG, Duncan and himself and Sheed defensively is "probably the best or second best of those players"??? What have YOU been smoking? Both Duncan and KG have made 8 All-NBA Defensive first teams and 2 Defensive second teams in their careers. Sheed? 0.

steve3344 wrote:kelly - Put Sheed in a trio of KG, Duncan and himself and Sheed defensively is "probably the best or second best of those players"??? What have YOU been smoking? Both Duncan and KG have made 8 All-NBA Defensive first teams and 2 Defensive second teams in their careers. Sheed? 0.

If Rasheed wins another championship this season, he will be in the discussion for sure. 4 time all star, 16,000 points, numerous runs deep into the playoffs, all rookie team etc.

He absolutely is in on the list of Top 5 Power Forwards of his era….Tim Duncan, KG, Dirk, Chris Webber and Sheed.

His attitude and the fact that he played within the system of the Pistons and never went for big big numbers will hurt him…but to say he isn’t in the discussion is equally ridiculous.

Steve, I added Duncan as an after thought after I wrote the rest of the post. That said, I don't think Sheed's too far behind either KG or Duncan defensively. You make it sound like I just told you Gerald Green is better than Michael Jordan. Calm down there, maybe you ought to get yourself something to smoke!

speaking of which, Rasheed is know to partake in the herb from time to time.

I read he had some run-ins with the law about that back in his JailBlazers days, does anybody think he still dabbles?

Maybe in the off season...but I am sure he is HIGH on the random drug testing list....no pun intended.

Mrkleen

Can it really be "random" if you are high on the list?

beat

True....but if he is smart (which is still up for debate), he is not smoking during the season.

mrkleen - Rasheed Wallace will be nowhere in any serious discussion for the Hall of Fame for a multitude of statistical reasons. First of all, his career scoring and rebounding numbers at the moment (and they are sure to go down the next two or three years as he finishes playing) are 14.9 and 6.9. Those are VERY pedestrian numbers for a premier player and no frontcourt player has ever gotten anywhere close to the Hall of Fame with numbers like that. Secondly, he has never even averaged 20 points in a season! Not once. HOF players do that (or even average 25+ ppg several times) six, eight, ten times (or more). For a C/PF he has never averaged more than 8.2 rebounds in any season. Very unimpressive. HOF bigs usually average DOUBLE FIGURE rebounds for more than a decade.

14.9 and 6.9 is a fine career. But "fine" doesn't get you into the Hall of Fame.

The other things you pointed out - 16,000 points, that's nothing in the grand scheme of things compared to HOF requirements. 4 all-star teams? HOF players often do that 10 times. All-rookie team? Come on. Hundreds of players made an all-rookie team and it's not a major deal. And "numerous runs deep in the playoffs"? If you don't distinguish yourself in those playoffs (and Wallace's playoff numbers are even a bit lower than his regular season numbers), no one cares. Lots of players happen to be on a succession of good teams that regularly make playoff runs.

Rasheed is a nice player who in no way is Hall of Fame material.

Steve

There are PLENTY of players in the HOF that didn't average 20 ppg....and lots that were role players of much lower stature than the Rasheed.

Wayne Embry, Joe Dumars, Arnie Risen, Calvin Murphy, Bill Walton, KC Jones and on and on.

If Rasheed wins another Championship this season, he will have made the playoffs all 14 years of his career - winning 2 championships - having played in 4 championship series - 6 Eastern Conference championships - and will finish in the top 50 All Time in more than 10 offensive and defensive categories.

I am not saying he is a lock. I am not even saying he is on the fence, as his attitude will keep him out no matter what.

But his resume is not nearly as far from other Hall of Famers as you are trying to claim.

mrkleen - I wasn't saying Rasheed has to average 20 ppg for his CAREER, I was pointing out that he never even averaged 20 ppg in any SEASON. You mention a few other players who got in. Let's look at them. First, you mention Wayne Embry. He got in in 1999 as a CONTRIBUTOR, for his work primarily in the front office, not as a PLAYER. Embry was the first African-American general manager (with the Bucks in the 70's), then Cleveland and then Toronto up until a few years ago. He was named NBA Executive of the Year in 1992 and 1998. And even as a player, he had seven seasons of averaging at least 9 rebounds a game. Rasheed has had none. Next, you mention Joe Dumars, one of the premier guards of his era and winner of back-to-back NBA championships with the Pistons. Wallace, albeit playing a different position, is not in his league as a player but the point is, you just cannot compare guards with frontcourt players with regards to their justification for the NBA HOF. You need to compare players of the same position. Arnie Risen, another one you mention, got in FORTY years after he retired and it was due to the era he played in (he entered the league in 1948) being a pioneering big man (for his time) when the NBA was in its infancy, even though he was only 6'9" and 200, which funnily enough, was the same height and weight as super-skinny Louie Orr! Imagine Louie Orr manning the middle for an NBA team! And I can't believe you actually mention Bill Walton as justification that Rasheed should get consideration. The consensus of opinion of NBA experts is, that when Walton was healthy and at the top of his game ('77 and most of the '78 season before his foot injury) he was among the top three centers of all time in terms of his ability to control and influence a game. I saw him a lot back then and I agree. Walton won the MVP award in '78 after finishing 2nd in '77 (plus a Finals MVP that year) and had one of the Top 5 collegiate careers in history (one of the considerations for the NBA HOF). Rasheed? Nowhere near those kinds of accolades. And lastly, you mention another guard, K.C. Jones. K.C. was the winner of EIGHT NBA CHAMPIONSHIPS HIS FIRST EIGHT SEASONS IN THE LEAGUE! PLUS winning ANOTHER two titles as head coach of the Celtics in '84 and '86. As a coach, K.C. won the division in all five of his seasons guiding the Celts and reached the Finals in four of his five years. Why is he mentioned in any discussion of Rasheed Wallace's Hall of Fame chances? Entirely different position, entirely different career.

Again, Rasheed has about as much of a chance of getting into the Hall as I do, even forgetting about his "attitude problems."

hey steve good to see you posting,you know your shit.....anyway still glad we got Sheed,he may not be HoF worthy,but with Perk and KG has got to be the best 3 man defensive rotation at PF-C in the league.

Hey cow, yeah, when HEALTHY, we've got the best frontcourt rotation in the league. And pray to God we get healthy soon. I want best overall record in the league. But if not, at least let us be completely healthy by mid-April. Nice to see the Lakers got trounced by the Spurs tonight 105-85. With all of our troubles, we're still only one game behind them in the loss column now and they've played TEN more home games than road games. The Celtics have played four LESS home games than road games. BIG difference.

And since you're following this thread and our debate on Rasheed Wallace and his consideration for the Hall of Fame, I will add one final thing:

No frontcourt player who averages as little as 14 points and 7 rebounds for his career and wasn't a pioneer of the NBA's early days of the '50s has ANY shot at the HOF no matter how many post-season appearances he makes. Those numbers are just too ordinary.

For point of reference, see Maurice Lucas: career numbers of 14.6 and 9.1 and never even came close to getting enough votes. Won a championship, 11 years in the playoffs. Not a sniff of the Hall. And he even had ELEVEN years averaging more than Rasheed's HIGHEST season in rebounds per game of 8.2. Lucas also had six seasons averaging double figure rebounds. Plus he had two 20 ppg scoring years.

Lucas played for the Lakers in '85-'86 and had a shot a playing against Bill Walton and the Celts that year in the Finals in what would have been an emotional and fascinating match-up of those two former Blazer buddies but the Rockets threw a monkey-wrench into those plans by knocking the Lakers out of the playoffs. I remember being very happy about that after the Lakers had beaten Boston the year before. Absolutely LOVED Ralph Sampson's miracle buzzer-beater and watching the Lakers' stunned expressions as they dragged their beaten asses off the court.

I guess we will have to see what happens Steve.

I think you make a compelling case.....but again, IMO, Rasheed is one of the 5 best PF of his era...and is a winner in every definition of the word.

You are probably right, but it was worth a shot

mrkleen,

Here's a list of frontcourt players who are not in the Hall of Fame who have had comparable, and in many cases, better careers than Rasheed and many of these players have gotten VERY low numbers of votes in recent years:

Bernard King
Mark Aquirre
Buck Williams
Kevin Willis
Jack Sikma
Bill Laimbeer
Otis Thorpe
Larry Nance
Horace Grant
Artis Gilmore
Chet Walker
Spencer Haywood
Detlef Schrempf
Mychal Thompson
Tom Chambers
Bobby Dandridge
George McGinnis

Also, there is a rating that NBA Register does called Hall of Fame Probability. It lists the 250 players who are either in or could be looked at:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob_career.html

Rasheed is #217 on that list with a probability of 2.1%. That's right, 2.1%. Every player I listed above that has not gotten in is rated higher, some WAY higher than Wallace, up to 40%+ for Sikma, Aguirre and Haywood, 53% for Chet Walker, 59% for Dandridge and 79% for Bernard King. Can't believe Bernard is not in.

One interesting comparison just came to mind: Lamar Odom. Lamar is 14.8 and 8.9 for his career (Rasheed is 14.9 and 6.9), plus more than twice the assists per game as Wallace (4.2 to 1.9), he's 30 years old so he will have about 4-6 years to add to his stats and no one I know would ever consider Lamar Odom a serious candidate for the NBA Hall of Fame. His career and Rasheed's are, and will be, very comparable. Odom actually a little better.

I don't think you would lobby for Lamar Odom for the Hall of Fame...

Steve

Did you miss the post where I said you were right?

mrkleen - Nope, just thought that list would interest you.

one player who I believe is in and for playing ability and statistics never thought he was worthy is Bill Bradley,how is he in and Bernard King,Chris Mullin and JoJo White are not? guess it pays to be white,bright and polite.

steve3344 wrote:mrkleen,

Here's a list of frontcourt players who are not in the Hall of Fame who have had comparable, and in many cases, better careers than Rasheed and many of these players have gotten VERY low numbers of votes in recent years:

Bernard King
Mark Aquirre
Buck Williams
Kevin Willis
Jack Sikma
Bill Laimbeer
Otis Thorpe
Larry Nance
Horace Grant
Artis Gilmore
Chet Walker
Spencer Haywood
Detlef Schrempf
Mychal Thompson
Tom Chambers
Bobby Dandridge
George McGinnis

Also, there is a rating that NBA Register does called Hall of Fame Probability. It lists the 250 players who are either in or could be looked at:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob_career.html

Rasheed is #217 on that list with a probability of 2.1%. That's right, 2.1%. Every player I listed above that has not gotten in is rated higher, some WAY higher than Wallace, up to 40%+ for Sikma, Aguirre and Haywood, 53% for Chet Walker, 59% for Dandridge and 79% for Bernard King. Can't believe Bernard is not in.

One interesting comparison just came to mind: Lamar Odom. Lamar is 14.8 and 8.9 for his career (Rasheed is 14.9 and 6.9), plus more than twice the assists per game as Wallace (4.2 to 1.9), he's 30 years old so he will have about 4-6 years to add to his stats and no one I know would ever consider Lamar Odom a serious candidate for the NBA Hall of Fame. His career and Rasheed's are, and will be, very comparable. Odom actually a little better.

I don't think you would lobby for Lamar Odom for the Hall of Fame...

i can't believe Bernard King is not in either, and Dandridge is another who really ought to be. his footwork and his patented move to get off an open shot while sweeping across the lane were superb !
LEMME HAVE A VOTE TO CORRECT THESE NEGLIGENT OVERSIGHTS !

(and nice work on the research that went into your posts, Steve)

Michael in Denver

To bobheckler: This is the original post that actually had Sheed and Hall Of Fame in the same paragraph and we had a little debate about it. KellyGreen17 and mrkleen09 were pro (but in the end mrkleen came over to my side), I was con.