CORRECTION: POST-GAME Thread: Celtics vs. Suns in Boston, 11/17/14

[Sam]

This game will go down in history as a loss.  But, in terms of its contribution to the growth of a rebuilding team, it seems to me that it could be looked at as a significant win from a number of perspectives:
 
• The Celtics didn’t try to slow down the Suns, which would have been a very difficult task for the defense-challenged Celts.  Instead, the Celts (and Rondo) matched pace with pace.  In fact, while the Celts trailed the Suns in fast break points during the first half, 15-12, the Celts reversed the pattern in the second half, 11-6.
 
• The Celtics had 66 points in the paint, with Tyler Zeller and Jeff Green being particularly effective down low.
 
• The bench (mainly Zeller but also some input by Phil Pressey) was +2 for the night against a vaunted Suns bench.
 
• The close score against a difficult team, plus the number of Celtics fast break points (23) compared with the number of points from behind the arc (12) suggests that the Celts are more effective when they push the ball than when they keep firing away from deep.  I hope Brad’s metrics guy can somehow impress this fact on Brad.
 
• I’d be willing to wager (although I have no proof) that the average Celtics possession included a Celtics shot earlier in the shot clock than has been the case all season long.  And I’d further bet that the great majority of those circumstances resulted in scoring possessions, whether through initial shots or putbacks.
 
• The Celtics did a good job with their “fall back quickly” defense but still outrebounded the Suns on the offensive boards, 11-9.
 
• Despite the debilitating pace, the Celtics shot at a 51.7% clip for the game.
 
• The Celtics virtually doubled the Suns in free throw attempts (31-16), underscoring the fact that the Celts were going to the basket all night long.
 
• Perhaps my favorite outcome of this game was that the Celtics showed no signs of withering against a relentless Suns attack.  They bent but never broke, and the game was definitely winnable down the stretch.  It was a fun slugfest to watch.
 
Although there were a number of “glimmers in the making” in this one, it was a loss; and there were a lot of negatives:
 
• Kelly Olynyk looked lost at both ends of the floor, to the extent that Brad limited him to 13 minutes while playing Tyler Zeller twice as much (27 minutes).  Kelly’s 4 personals and 3 turnovers more than outweighed the value of his zero points and 4 defensive rebounds.  He took only 2 field goal attempts in his 13 minutes.  Small wonder that Tyler played much more and was called a “dependable” player who plays hard by Brad after the game.
 
• Avery Bradley is turning into a trick-or-treater.  He had 16 points on 7-13 shooting.  But his ball-handling is poor, not just for a floor general but for a shooting guard as well.  There can be no excuse for his throwing a lazy crosscourt pass late in crunch time with the Celtics still in the game.  My grandmother could have picked that one off, and she’s been dead for 20 years.  I still cannot envision him, under any circumstances, being a starting off guard on a seriously contending team.  He may rack up positive stats from three-point land.  He may be a decent defensive player, although I believe his days of being a dominant defensive player are in the distant past.  But he’s not all that effective in the half court defense, being picked off frequently and losing the defensive battle to taller opponents who can easily shoot over him.  On offense, jump shooting is his primary weapon, and the Celtics need more tricks from their ponies at the guard position.  I definitely would have had Marcus Thornton in at SG in the last minute of the game, although Brad chose to give Marcus only 10 minutes all night long.
 
• Steady Eddie Bass had one of his poorer games: 4 points (no field goals), 5 rebounds, 2 turnovers in 23 minutes.  As his minutes become more restricted with the logjam at the PF position, he seems to have become almost a forgotten man on offense.  He seems to be trying as hard as ever; but, for one reason or another, the results have not been as consistent.
 
• Evan Turner, who many seemed to view as a savior at the “1” position with Rondo out early in the season, had some pretty decent stats last night, with 7 points, 4 rebounds and 6 assists in 22 minutes.  But somehow they didn’t seem like high-impact stats.  Sadly, I’ve lost the confidence I had with him on the floor earlier in the season.
 
• Phil Pressey performed okay, with 4 points (2-4), 2 assists, and a couple of good defensive plays in his 17 minutes.  But, at his best, he seems like an different look to show opponents once or twice a game—but certainly not a lead floor general on a regular basis.
 
• And then there was Rondo.  His stats are usually very good.  Another near triple-double last night.  His play down the stretch is typically positive.  Some nice long touchdown passes last night.  But I have to wonder whether he has the goods to be a consistent winning catalyst.  There used to be a Detroit Lions quarterback named Bobby Layne.  He was a renowned drinker on the nights before games.  His stats we nothing to rave about.  Yet he somehow had a winning nature—especially in the clutch.  I wouldn’t wish drunkenness on Rondo; but I do wonder whether he has a winning nature in the clutch.  Sure, he won a championship; but he was clearly behind three “go to” guys on that team.  Rondo’s strengths seem to be offset by his vulnerabilities—especially down the stretch.  It’s too easy to sag off him and congratulate him if he somehow scores.  Two for ten from the line?  And three misses in three attempts at the end?  Something is definitely wrong with this picture, and those who have said his free throw failures are sufficient to reduce his value must be smirking tonight.
 
• At least most of my negatives were reserved for individual players rather than the team as a whole.  I thought that, for a team still trying to gel in the first 15% of the season, they looked pretty good.  The main exception, of course, has to be the defense.  I know some (perhaps all) will disagree with me, but I regard Smart and Wallace as the only truly high-impact defensive players on the team.  For my money, Zeller, Jeff Green, Bass, Bradley and Rondo rank in a second echelon of acceptable defensive players but aren’t stoppers on their own.
 
• In the absence of a lot of individual stoppers, the Celtics’ team defense must be in the spotlight.  And it continues to be wanting big time.  I don’t see much (if any) improvement over last year’s team’s woeful defense against the pick-and-roll, cuts down the lane, and offenses that spread the floor for a lot of corner threes.  Last night, the Suns also had 66 points in the paint.  Other teams are gearing their defenses to stop the Celtics.  Some simply extend their defense and collapse when the Celtics penetrate.  Last night, the Suns didn’t try to keep the Celtics’ bigs from receiving passes, but they collapsed on any C’s big who did catch a pass; and the Suns were highly successful in blocking or deflecting or intimidating shots with that tactic—especially in the first half.
 
* In a more positive vein, Jared Sullinger has to be one of the hardest workers in pro basketball.  Last night, he scored 18 and had 8 rebounds.  But a lot of his effort is expended in trying to outwork opponents who have physical superiority (in height and/or agility).  When he’s playing center, as he sometimes did when the Celtics went small last night, he’s at a serious disadvantage at both ends.  At least, last night, he took only two threes and made one of them down the stretch.
 
• Jeff Green certainly looked like a “go to” guy last night.  He relentlessly attacked the rim (28 points), outran opponents in the open court, and played a heck of a defensive game with 3 steals (including a beauty leading to his own breakaway with the game still on the line) and 2 blocks despite playing much of the time against one of the dangerous Morris twins.  (I used to know them when they were called the Suns’ Van Arsdale twins.)  Jeff shared my game ball.
 
• And the guy he shared it with was Tyler Zeller.  Talk about trying hard!  He frequently was ahead of all others down the floor in transition, finishing several breakaways with authoritative scores.  In the halfcourt, he ran the pick-and-roll to perfection, scoring again and again.  When he was stopped one time, he casually flipped in a lefty hook from the right side. His defense produced only one block and one steal, but he did a better job of bothering the Suns’ bigs than the other Celtics’ bigs did.  One problem was that, when he’d switch onto an opponent driving for the basket and the shot was missed, no Celtics teammate put a body on other Suns’ bigs, who swooped in and got putbacks.
 
• Dwight Powell got 21 points and 13 rebounds; and James Young scored 21 points with 7 rebounds.  The only problem was that they were toiling for the Maine Red Claws at the time.
 
The extensive list of positives and negatives combined to make this one of the most entertaining games of the season.  They came close to a win against a tough opponent, and I was particularly proud of how they never quit, even after being down by 16 early in the game.
 
Go Celtics!
 
Sam 

[kdp59]

thanks Sam, good read and I agree with most of your observations.

It was also good that the Celtics took my advise about getting down early this game. Well, at least it was better for me, as I took this loss a lot better than losing a big lead in the 4th quarter!

Rondo again had a chance to pull us close and couldn't hit his shots. he can't have the ball late, with the game on the line folks.

[hawksnestbeach]

In our wildest dreams, the C's would be in first place now, dominating the League, but short of that, I like where we are now. This is a rebuilding year, yet no team is safe against these Celtics. They can beat anyone, from Cleveland to Texas, but still they have a losing record. In some ways, this is perfect, as they may get one more trip to the well next June and come up with another smart choice.
One more Smart-like pick, only taller, and watch out. Zeller was a steal. Smart is the real deal. Green is showing more and more. I agree with Sam's analysis, wouldn't object if we traded Bradley, Turner scares me, Kelly will never be a good defender. Rondo is not really trying to sink those free throws; I cannot believe if that were a playoff game, he'd miss 8 of 10. If you put a blindfold on him, he'd get at least one more.
So much of the game is mental, but unless you have the physical talent, that never comes into play. We have that talent, minus a monster in the middle, and I think we'll be contending for a banner next year.
This year will be frustrating, a close but no cigar campaign, but that's infinitely better than watching yesterday's stars fading before our eyes in the Garden. Hawk.

[Berlin-T]

I can only agree with most of the comments expressed here. I'm enjoying very much watching this young team improve game after game. What they lack is mental toughness down the stretch and I think that will come with time.

[Sam]

Hawk,

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Rondo wasn't trying to hit those freebies, except for the final one.  He deliberately tried to miss that one, but it looked no different from all his other losses.  But there's definitely something amiss in his mental approach to the game.  I'd like access to a reel of his best performances as a pro.  My guess (and I'm only conjecturing while influenced by recent frustration) is that the instances of his going to another level in the clutch would be in the minority.

In other words, he has the ability to get himself "up" for nationally telecast games or mano a mano duels with the top "1" guards or even for big games.  But his elevated level of play is usually over the long run rather than at the end.  That could very well be why there are so many plaudits for Rondo triple doubles (hard-earned over the duration of the entire game) but so many Celtics losses at the end.  From Cousy to DJ, the great Celtics floor generals have been great because they were winners—especially down the stretch of games.  They had that indefinable something extra that pushed them to amazing heights at the end.  I have to say that, after eight seasons of his being my favorite Celtic, I just don't see that in Rondo.

There were several memorable seasons in which Rondo didn't have to rise to new levels in crunch time.  He just had to enable the Three Amigos, who performed that duty.  Now, he's pretty much on his own as "the man," and I'm afraid he's being exposed as a very good ball-handler, passer and penetrator who is just another player in crunch time.

On the other hand, he may have it within him to rise to great heights down the stretch while not being able to summon whatever it takes to get there because he lacks adequate support.  Or perhaps there's some other reason I'm overlooking.

I may the subject of wholesale mutiny by posting these thoughts.  But, in actuality, I always try to be objective about the Celtics, even though I'm generally accused of wearing green-colored glasses.

Sam

[mrkleen09]

One comment since there has been lots of talk about the team needing a "go to guy" or a player they can count on in "crunch time"

This kind of thing only comes with the team getting behind a player and living and dying with him being "the man"....you cant complain when he misses that shot. You cant cry when he shoots 40% from the field. You cant second guess his shot making or decisions on a game by game basis. You have to give him the freedom to accomplish such a goal and then get out of the way.

The only player on the current roster who can perform this task is Jeff Green. Yet so many in the media, like so many here - have second guessed the guy for so long that now - he is forced to play the background. Sometimes getting the call, sometimes asked to step aside and let someone less capable try and win the game. This lack of a finisher falls squarely in the be careful what you wish for category.

[hawksnestbeach]

Sam, I think Rondo's free throws show lack of focus, although the rest of his game was good. The rest, for him, threading the needle, reading the defense, is instinctive, but when he gets to the line, he's like Sundance when he couldn't move his feet. However when the stakes are high, like against Miami in the playoffs, Rondo's at his best with rebounds, assists, even points if that's what it takes.
By NBA standards, he's a lightweight, physically. He's been hurt, knows injuries can derail him. I think he's working on his game now, testing himself, wants to take a core of the present team (or another team) to a higher level, but that's a later, so individual wins and losses aren't do-or-die now. And when he's not focused on the score, the freebies, never his calling card, aren't important enough to get into that zen where you know it's going in.
How's that, from the armchair? Hawk

[Sam]

Mrkleen, I agree that in appointing one player as the "go to" guy, you might as well print a target on his back.  I'm much more in favor of having "go to" responsibility spread over several players who have the ability and the guts to want to take the pivotal shot.  Easier said than done, of course.

However, it would be nice to think that Brad is cultivating "go to" mentalities in several players, even at the expense of sacrificing a few wins in the process.  And, at this juncture, I'd rather have Green or Thornton (yup, Thornton) with the ball when they need a score in the clutch.  Anyone but Rondo, at least until the rest of the team is comfortable in creating space for themselves at crunch time so Rajon has passing lanes.

As things stand right now, it appears to me that the Celtics' two greatest challenges are interior defense (what's new?) and closing out games.  Brad and Danny are going to have to figure out whether, given sufficient guidance and repetition, this bunch of players can rise to these challenges or need replacements.

Sam

[cowens/oldschool]

Sam

KO is still learning the game, but I have doubts that hes a starting level 4/5 for a championship team. His defense is just so weak and even Raef Lafrentz who I hated watching, was at a level I don't see KO reaching.

On AB, he'd look alot better on defense playing with bigs like Adams, Perk and Ibaka or Gasol and Randolph, but you put any perimeter player with Sully, KO and Zeller and theres only so much they can do. If Zeller is your best defensive big I'd say your defense is in need of an upgrade desperately.

Its early in the rebuild, but Dannys neglect to solve the center position is gonna give us this kind of product. Zeller while I like the new facets of his offensive game we are seeing and clearly needs to start, is no rim protector or physical load in the paint. Until we get that piece, all the other positions don't really matter, we'll continue to be a middle of the road team....at least our rebuild is further than the Lakers.

cow

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