COMING TOGETHER AS A TEAM

Sam in his post yesterday inadvertently may have identified the answer as to Our Teams' problem. There have been many theories, speculations and plan old pot shots as to the reasons why we are failing, and I probably fall in all three categories myself, all driven for the love of the Celtic's and no special agenda.

But after a fresh morning brew of coffee and shaking off my frustrations of last night, I read Sam's tread in his post game post and one thing he said made a whole lot of sense. If I may paraphrase. Sam said that after trades or what ever takes place, he will wait to watch the team come together. Then I asked myself, did the team ever come together this year? Was the team really together last year after KG went down? Our record at Christmas Day was fantastic. But was their winning all due to the fact that they are individually great talented players and not so much due to a team oriented concept of basketball that gave them such a great league record and a past Championship?

When KG went down, then Daniels, then Pierce, team basketball was required to over come such a deficit of talent. However could their slow deterioration which has lead to this massive implosion be caused by the fact that they never knew how to play team basketball 'cause it was never there from the beginning of the season? Well, this sound more plausible as to what the real underlying problem maybe.

If you want to find the mark in the sand that I believe started the Celtic's current problems based on my statements above, go way back to the article during the summer when Doc discussed the "Rondo Team Meeting" that took place between two groups of players and how Doc told Rondo it was a bad idea but the meeting took place anyway with, what Doc said, no useful resolution.

If what I have said is nearer to the truth of the problem, Doc was the obvious person to mediate and resolve this problem. Obviously he failed in his mission to where the team is tuning him out during games. The next step to resolve this situation now comes from Ainge and management through a trade(s) to weed out the discontented and bring in players who best can exemplify "CELTIC TEAM BASKETBALL".

112288

112288,

It's not all that inadvertent. It's been pretty declarative and consistent, to the point of being boringly repetitive. It's what the word "discontinuity" is all about. Substitute some meaningful continuity and the regimen of a few decent practices, and see me in April.

Sam

112288,

If I read your post right, you are saying that the reason that the team hasn't "come together" this season is perhaps agenda based, going all the way back to the referenced team meeting. It involves some kind of Old Guys vs. Young Guys thing or some other kind of power struggle.

At least that is how I read your original post. Let me know if I am missing anything.

That isn't the same as a message that the team hasn't "come together" due to injuries, possible vet player over use, or the fact that all the tream members haven't "been together as a team" at the same time at any time in this season, so the team never got to gel. This issue (IMO) goes all the way back to about one year ago, when KG went out the first time. Players added to the team for one role were asked to move up to another role, with the full range of results. More injuries shifted the roles further up the depth chart and after a full year of this, well, here we are!!

Two different concepts with no link between them.

Regards,

gyso

gyso,

That's what Heinsohn's been talking about. Guys having to step into unfamiliar roles and, just when they're getting a bit familiar with those new roles, moving either to new roles or relearning the old ones. It's been a constant shuffle.

Sam

gyso wrote:112288,

If I read your post right, you are saying that the reason that the team hasn't "come together" this season is perhaps agenda based, going all the way back to the referenced team meeting. It involves some kind of Old Guys vs. Young Guys thing or some other kind of power struggle.

At least that is how I read your original post. Let me know if I am missing anything.

That isn't the same as a message that the team hasn't "come together" due to injuries, possible vet player over use, or the fact that all the tream members haven't "been together as a team" at the same time at any time in this season, so the team never got to gel. This issue (IMO) goes all the way back to about one year ago, when KG went out the first time. Players added to the team for one role were asked to move up to another role, with the full range of results. More injuries shifted the roles further up the depth chart and after a full year of this, well, here we are!!

Two different concepts with no link between them.

Regards,

gyso

Gyso,

My post was aimed at Agenda based theory (could be old vs. young, could be some other classification) but ya. I know everyone including myself have had several theories but as I thought about it this morning, this made the most sense. I have listened to may of Doc's post game interviews and you can see that the majority of them were filled with bogus excuses for losses. Doc tipped his hand this Sunday after the loss to Orlando.

112288

112288,

I don't get a lot of real insight when I listen to Doc before a game, let alone after a painful loss. I understand "company speak" when I hear it. I don't remember what he said after the loss to Orlando, but sometimes frustration can lead to one being more "frank" then one wants to be.

I am not stuck on it being only one thing that has caused our current affairs. I believe it is a mix. Heavy on the "discontinuity" of the roster, followed closely by gross mismanagement of veteran player minutes (there, I've said it!!), with a little "agenda" driven issues thrown in for spice.

Notice that I did not list the big three being "old" as a contributing factor. Their current physical shape is a result of being driven until the wheels come off, not part of just being "old". History may judge Doc as being the right coach for the first season of the big three, but exactly the wrong coach from then on.

Unfortunately, we won in the first year (just joking a little bit there) and because of that, Doc's place at the table was guaranteed. We were doomed from then on with the whole veteran team concept.

Anyway, with everyone throwing their theories into the hat, I thought I'd mention that one. I will be sure to hear from the ones that think Doc brought us #17, so he can do no wrong. To be honest, Doc has always baffeled me with his substitution patterns, even in the championship season.

gyso

GYSo,

You have a great angle on Doc. Right coach 2008, wrong coach now. That sure makes a lot of sense. Would Tom T. make more sense now or is he in the same mind set as Doc.

In one of Red's books ( On & Off The Court) Red speaks about how modern day coaches seem to talk too much to a point that they lose the team. I wonder if Doc is at that point right now.

112288

Hi,
I guess there're more theories than the members of this forum.
I tend to agree with Sam and gyso. Now, $1M question is how to get out of this hole?

AK

A thorough team review of the entire system. Identification of the most productive player combinations. One practice at a time. One game at a time. Consistency of roles. Tweaking to respond to inefficiencies that become apparent. More practices. More games. More tweaking as appropriate. Fine tuning. Win championship. Sounds trite, but that's the way it'll have to work.

Sam

With a veteran team a back to basics approach as Sam advocates is appropriate.............a tactic I'd recommend with the goal of forming a common 'agenda' would be meetings in which each member is expected to identify 1 problem and a strategy for correcting it in addition to 1 'glimmer' and commend it.

In this manner not only are issues and synergy addressed but the group as contributors are far more likely to 'buy off' on the plan.

Tark

I hope that trade(s) if any will help clarifying the picture.
Sad time but I hope it is the bottom.

AK

Gyso

You sound pretty down on Doc and you aint a negative guy. I tend to think he has lost the teams ear at least to a degree.

It is one very good thing that everybody is back on the floor and Glen and Quis are both growing and will help big down the last part of the season.

Man Perk looks miserable out there. Just very unhappy. Make me wonder if there aint a beef between the young and the old.

Perk does look miserable, doesn't he? I did see him up off the bench cheering on Sheed at one point in last nights game, so it doesn't seem like there's problems there. I think KG is like a big brother to Perk so I doubt that's it. Probably not Ray, he's to classy to have beef with anyone...so Paul maybe? It's an interesting theory...

Of course, it could just be that trademark scowl!

Maybe he just hates losing but I think he is a guy that benefits more than most from team harmony and togetherness. I think Perk believes all that ubuntu stuff and gets sad and really frustrated when others dont.

jeb65 wrote:Gyso

You sound pretty down on Doc and you aint a negative guy. I tend to think he has lost the teams ear at least to a degree.

It is one very good thing that everybody is back on the floor and Glen and Quis are both growing and will help big down the last part of the season.

Man Perk looks miserable out there. Just very unhappy. Make me wonder if there aint a beef between the young and the old.

Jeb,

I was listening to Pink Floyd the Wall, side two, over and over again today. It is depressing stuff, if you listen to the words. Maybe it put me in a foul mood. Perhaps I should listen to the B52's instead!!

I just think Doc would have learned from last year that you can't run the old dogs every night. Sometimes, you have to let them ride around with the guys and save them for when it really counts. It keeps the fire in their eyes but saves their legs.

Here we are, more than halfway through the season, and it looks like last year, only worse. Doc is spending them like it is the playoffs. Ray is leading the C's in percent of available minutes played, just ahead of Rondo. Drop 10% and there is Pierce at third, clearly ahead of Perk. KG is fifth, just ahead of Sheed.

KG has played 48% of the minutes available to him. Pierce, 65%. That is just crazy. I know you understand the concept because you have remarked that Phil is doing the same thing to Kobe.

Sheed has played 46%, more than the plan, I'll bet. He's the closest to AARP and sixth on the minute chart. There is a huge dropoff after Sheed, with House at 33%.

Here's the link:

http://www.82games.com/0910/0910BOS1.HTM

Min (%) = the percentage of the team's total minutes the player was on the floor.

There may be a better place to find minutes played, but this one gave me the answers to my questions.

KG came back too soon. It sounded like Pierce came back when he wanted to. Who's in control here? Perk and Sheed lead the league in technicals and Sheed is near the limit. Doc should make a rule. Only Doc is allowed to get a technical foul. That is it. Someone else gets a tech, off to the locker room for the rest of the game. It is up to the coach to argue the calls, the players job is to play the game. If they don't get it, they sit. That is how it worked for Red I believe.

You take all that and add your thought that Doc has lost the player's ears. I really hope Doc proves me wrong and takes what he has been given and puts it to better use.

Ah, just rambling. Tomorrow's another day. Maybe I'll like Doc tomorrow.

Nah!!

gyso

it's the same as with the Lakes. I understand favoring the vets as a coach. But Ray's minutes are out of control. PP needs to get healthy which should mean limited minutes and Kg needs to sit and heal...do rehab and stuff and come back when and only when he aint limping like willis reed.

I agree with you. About doc and I was slow to come to it.

I also agree and mentioned on the coaching thread that the next time sheed gets a t he is sent to the locker room. Period. Perk I give a little more leeway cause he is young. With Sheed there is nothing sadder than an old fool.

Crank up lava bro and feel better...like a red hot volcano!

As a caveat...Sheed should be benched every time he launches his third ill advised three. Even if they are good looks.

I am starting to just hate the three ball.

Its just age and injuries.....were Spurs East

Gyso,

Don't get depressed. Hey suppose management wanted to move the team to Vancouver or worst yet The Left Coast! As long as we can give a good showing and perhaps get lucky to get to the finals it was a good year.

Players and teams come and go but Management has smelled success with 2008 and Wyc as a Hedge Fund Guy carries with him an big ego in the right way of not wanting to fail so he will not put up with sub par basketball. I can rest assure everyone we will not wait 22 years for another title.

112288

Cheer up Cow...where there's life there's hope. Though I concur on KG...I think they should sit him down and let him rehab,,,however long it takes.

But hell I hear you...i was beyond blue last night.

jeb65 wrote:Cheer up Cow...where there's life there's hope. Though I concur on KG...I think they should sit him down and let him rehab,,,however long it takes.

But hell I hear you...i was beyond blue last night.

alot of good theories,but if we had the Big 3 together say anytime from 02-08,we could just play through all the little crap that goes on and still beatdown on teams.