Somebody,please explain this to me

A lot of people here say that Danny Ainge have done a great job drafting players and making trades(sometimes I agree and sometimes I don't) but every time I came to this forum I only see post about how bad the Celtics young players are,how bad is Kelly O,Sully is fat and should be traded,James Young is thw worst player in summer league(I am not if I read it here or in another forum)Boston don't have players with trade value,Evan Turner should be release and many others.In my over 45 years following sports teams in the USA I have never seeing fan as negative as the Celtics.Sometimes i think that maybe i am wrong thinking that the Celtics have a good bunch of young players with a great future,but ......i don't see the fans of other teams acting this way,for example The fans of the Lakers are talking about how good is DAngelo Russell and how good he played in the summer league ,when anybody know that he did not play well and the same with Julius Randle.

international,

I honestly don't know what you are referring to.

1.  Let's talk about the Laker fans and D'Anglo Russell.  I don't know what they were saying on the Laker boards, but here is a cut-and-paste of a report about Laker fans IN VEGAS at the games.

News, Notes from Summer League Monday: Lakers fans boo their team
Kurt Helin Jul 14, 2015, 1:12 AM EDT

LAS VEGAS — Monday in Las Vegas and nothing has slowed down — this is Vegas, baby.

There was a full slate of games at the NBA Summer League, and the effort was still there, with players trying to make teams, impress scouts, and put on a show. Here is some of what we saw (notes are from Kurt Helin and Sean Highkin).

• Lakers fans again filled the Thomas & Mack to see their young stars, but this time they booed them after a brutal first quarter — the Lakers had more turnovers than points (seven to five) and shot 2-of-17, trailing the Knicks by 15 after one. The Lakers got back into it and made it interesting in the end, but their Summer League team largely remains the Jordan Clarkson show. (KH)

The Lakers have potential but a long way to go, look for more on the Lakers tomorrow on PBT.


2.  Not only have this board been quite supportive of the rookies, even Cowens is singing their praises now.  I'm talking about a die hard Celtics fan who had the long knives out for Danny after drafting them, and now he's feeling good about them.  There is a thread in which the author tries to make the case for starting RJ Hunter.  I think it's too soon to do that, but that's not because I'm not supportive, I've said quite clearly he's a keeper, it's because he has never laced up an NBA sneaker yet and the Celtic way has been to break rookies in slowly and off the bench (e.g. Havlicek, McHale). I predict that RJ Sniper will get more minutes this year than most #28 picks usually get because his shooting and good court vision will open up the middle for Johnson and Lee and that is exactly the direction Brad wants to go in.

3.  Sully is fat.  Danny Ainge all but stated the abundantly obvious.  As far as Kelly goes, there's mixed feelings on this board.  Rambone is a big fan, I believe KDP is too.  I'm trying to see his advantages, especially in the context of Brad's type of motion offense, even though the "stretch 4" is not one of my favorite basketball mutations.  There are others who see Kelly as a center and they expect centers to be dominating defensively, as opposed to stronger on offense and/or a stretch 4, and that is the source of their discontent.

4.  If Ralph Sampson III gave the Celtics summer league team it was that he was the only player on the Celtics team that was worse than James Young.  If James Young was playing for a contract like Phil Pressey was he wouldn't be on the team next year based upon his summer league performances.  That doesn't mean the end of the world, I just hope he either ups his game or it's the end of the world for James Young in Boston.  There are tons of wings who are more right-sized for a SF than him and are looking for work.

I cannot speak to what other Celtic fans on other boards are saying, you are probably correct about them, but I would ask you to re-read the Game On threads for the summer league games on this board and re-read some of the threads on this main discussion page and I'm convinced you will realize it is other fans you are talking about and not us.


bob



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Yeah, all the enthusiasm and excitement was on the game on threads.

Which makes me wonder if the game on threads should be a little more conveniently located, like a sticky right up on this home page.

rambone wrote:Yeah, all the enthusiasm and excitement was on the game on threads.

Which makes me wonder if the game on threads should be a little more conveniently located, like a sticky right up on this home page.

Rambone,

All the more reason for people to join us on the Game On threads.


bob


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International, it's possible that you're being influenced by other forums more than by ours. There's no question that posters on our forum do a very good job of being objective, meaning they're very candid in recognizing both positive and negative things about the Celtics.

But I've been rather amazed about how the initially lukewarm observations about the Celtics' recent draft have become much more favorable during the Summer League. Now I'm reading (and writing) about how some of the drafted players might even make other Celtics tradable at some point. Just based on eight summer games, that's a pretty positive point of view.

Yes, there have been a few complaints about Danny's transactions over the years, but most of those complaints have dealt with the past rather than the present. The prevailing opinion seems to be that, considering the limitations Danny has had to deal with, he's had a pretty good track record with the Celtics. I recall comparing the quality of Danny's draft picks with Red Auerbach's draft picks over the years, and Danny looks pretty good by comparison.

It's an undeniable fact that the Celtics haven't had a really good defensive center for several years, and we're all being pretty realistic about that. If Danny can come up with a player who can defend down low, I think you'll see a more upbeat reaction on this board.

Young has been a disappointment for a lot of us, and we say so. But we also express our hopes that his situation can change for the better. Part of being a Celtics board involves conjecture on trades that might make sense. It's not that we're just being unfair in our comments about players such as Turner and Bradley, but we're simply wondering in print how the time-honored practice of trading could help make the Celtics better. On the other hand, check out all the positive comments on relative newcomers such as Crowder and Jerebko. We call them as we see them.

I can't speak for other boards, as my general impression is that some people join those boards largely in order to bitch, moan, and fight with other posters. This board offers much more thoughtful opinions—and in a remarkably civil manner. We even hold the media up to a very high standard because we have a low tolerance for wanting less than the best in everything associated with the team we love so much.

I'm extremely proud and happy about the overall results of the posting on this board. And I guarantee that there's no one on earth who wears greener glasses than I do.

All the best, and I look forward to your comments on the coming season.

Sam

Hi,
I think Danny should double the number of his bodyguards after each draft no matter who he picks. Unless, of course, he drafts MJ, Kobe or Dunkan. Even then, I'm sure, there'd be some complains from Celtics fans.

As for this draft, the No. 16, 28 and 33 showed up really good, so far. But until we see them playing in NBA regular season we can only guess: maybe yes, maybe no, maybe rain, maybe snow.

AK

Simple question.
True or false the majority of Celtics fans believe that we don't have assets to make a trade for a star player?I have seen people in this and in oters forum saying that we did not have good players to offer for Kevin Love or another star.When I see fans making comments like this..Lets trade Sully for Mayers Leonard or trade Avery Bradley ,Kelly and a first round pick for Eric Gordon I can believe how underrated are our players and wait this is the best of all...next year with the additional cap,we should sign O J Mayo,that is really stupid.

Don't take too seriously, International. People are just throwing out ideas for the fun of it. We do know for sure that Danny tried to move up in the draft using Smart (one of the Celtics' hopes for the future) and he was rebuffed by two other teams. That doesn't speak too well for the overall quality of our players. However, the good news is that a team doesn't have to have a bunch of stars to win a lot of games due to good chemistry. That's what happened to the Celtics after last year's sll-star game.

Sam

international wrote:Simple question.
True or false the majority of Celtics fans believe that we don't have assets  to make a trade for a star player?I have seen people in this and in oters forum saying that we did not have good players to offer for Kevin Love or another star.When I see fans making comments like this..Lets trade Sully for Mayers Leonard or trade Avery Bradley ,Kelly and a first round pick for Eric Gordon I can believe how underrated are our players and wait this is the best of all...next year with the additional cap,we should sign O J Mayo,that is really stupid.

International, if I may speak vaguely for a few others here, I think we've just been generally rather quiet, but we had a thread about a week ago talking about how a big trade for a big player might be coming right up, and coming right out of nowhere.

I think this team could stumble to the championship trophy with some luck, and I think there will come a day this season when ... BOOM!, and there's a blockbuster trade for a star player, or at least a Joakim Noah or Rudy Gay or Jusuf Nurkic, or even Tobias Harris.

Then there are the less obvious but still plausible scenarios, like a solid team suddenly blows it up, like Mark Cuban almost said he did before DeAndre Jordan, lol.

It could be the Mavs, it could be the Bulls, looking for young talent and our Nets pick or two. And then boom we have Jimmy Butler. Or at least Joakim Noah.

Or maybe, and I mean most likely, multiple Celtics will outperform their expectations, and they collectively make us a dangerous wild card in the playoffs. Real dangerous.

This team can and will grind teams right down with no mercy, night after night after night. And nobody even has to over-extend themselves with high minutes, or playing while injured. Our guys will be able to rest and heal injuries, with talented teammates eager to pick up the slack.

Like a relay team in a marathon. And the season is a marathon.

By the end of the 26th mile, we'll be just getting finely tuned into our peak performing.

Noah would be a perfect center for this team.

international wrote:Simple question.
True or false the majority of Celtics fans believe that we don't have assets  to make a trade for a star player?I have seen people in this and in oters forum saying that we did not have good players to offer for Kevin Love or another star.When I see fans making comments like this..Lets trade Sully for Mayers Leonard or trade Avery Bradley ,Kelly and a first round pick for Eric Gordon I can believe how underrated are our players and wait this is the best of all...next year with the additional cap,we should sign O J Mayo,that is really stupid.

international,

I've already written that there is a difference between being critical, as in "analyzing a situation and critiquing it" and being fans who disappear when the going gets tough.  Nevertheless, you just asked a question that is separate from that and I'm going to take a swing at answering it as I see it.

The answer is...yes and no.

As things sit right now, we don't.  Kelly is hesitant on his shooting and is limited defensively man-to-man, Sully is fat (I saw the pic of him and I would be ecstatic to revise this opinion of him, but I don't think other GMs, who are the people who would be trading for him, has seen this new Jared Sullinger yet), our guards are nice but not great, we have no all-star nor anybody who is on the verge of becoming one.  Our draft picks are numerous but are of middling value since most of them are ours and we are on the way up.  The exceptions to this are the Brooklyn picks in 2016 and 2018.  Those might be of significant value, starting with this season as we see the fortunes of the #8 seed Nets rise or, as I predict, fall until they are out of the playoffs and possibly way down in the standings.  Who would trade a star for these assets?  If you have the stars, like Cleveland and San Antonio and the Clippers, you have no problem filling out your bench with quality talent.  As we saw in Miami when LBJ was there, players like Shane Battier and Ray Allen WANT to go there.  The Clippers just got Josh Smith for a song (it was a whiny little self-pity ditty, but it was a song) and the Spurs got David West for the vet minimum.  Those teams don't need to trade a star for their bench, their bench will be throwing themselves at them, begging them to sign them.

So, where's the 'yes'?

1.  Danny.  From the Ray Allen heist in 2007 (that was done with a #5 as bait and filled out with some spare parts.  As the Nets go, so shall the ability of Danny to use the Nets' 2016 pick as bait for a star) to buying Billy King's soul for a couple of aging warriors at the end of their contracts to convincing OKC to pay him to take PJ3 off their hands Danny has shown the ability to improve the cards he is holding in his hand.  Not every hand is a royal flush, sometimes he ends up with a busted flush, but he has had enough wins more than losses that one can say, absolutely and positively, that the wins were not flukes.  One of these little deals that makes us wonder why he even bothers might be the deal-maker, or maybe it'll be the little deal he rolls the last little deal into.  Maybe Jerebko, who was gotten by rolling the Jeff Green-for-Tayshaun Prince deal into a Tayshaun Prince-for-Jerebko/Gigi deal will be a difference maker in a big deal.  Maybe PJ3 will be the one some GM wants and not Kelly nor Sully, whom everybody has been assuming would be the ones to go.  

2.  Organic growth.  We have several players who have been in the Brad Stevens system for 2 years now (Sully, Kelly, Bradley), a couple with one year with him (Smart, Turner) and a few that played for him but never went through a full training camp and learned his entire playbook from front-to-back (Thomas, Jerebko).  That's some continuity, for a change.  Sully and Kelly now have enough experience in the league their play should reflect it and the refs will start giving them some credit.  Speaking of Sully, if that pic is the new him then I will be very interested to see what that does to his game.  Bottom line is that each player that might be traded is way too young to start worrying about decline in their athletic abilities or increased likelihood of injury but are poised to up their game.

3.  Brad.  If anybody can squeeze the last drop of effectiveness out of a player and make them look good, he can.  Last year, with mediocre talent and a roster that was churning like Danny was trying to turn milk into butter, he still got us into the playoffs.  We went 24-12 in our last 36 games after the all-star break and Danny's phone stopped ringing (or was that 'dialing'?).  Brad is the best player on our team.  People used to say that Rondo was a player who elevated the game of every other player on the floor.  So does Brad.  The difference is that Rondo couldn't hit free throws, making him a liability at the end of close games.  As we saw repeatedly last year, at the end of close games Brad is one of the best ATO coaches in the league and he just got another year of experience under his belt.  Who wants to trade for mediocre players from a losing team?  Not many.  Now, who wants to trade for young players showing growth and playing with poise and confidence in a system that is producing wins?  That's a different story, right?  Semantics?  Perhaps, but improving players in a system that is designed to employ them so they look their best is what gets GMs' attention and is what Brad Stevens is best at.

4.  Other team's dynamics.  Who knows if Mt. St. Cousins and George Karl will be able to kiss and make up?  Cousins wants to play 4.  Maybe he'll suck at it and Karl will put him back at 5 and Cousins loses it?  They have two other centers, Koufos and WCS, who are one-position players, so if Cousins is playing 5 they aren't playing.  Who knows what other teams will find themselves facing as they run into injuries, personality problems and their own player developments that make other players superfluous?  Paul George's development made Danny Grainger available, Ibaka's development made Jeff Green available, Hibbert's inability to play an uptempo game made him available once the decision was made by the front office and coaching staff that's the style of game they want to play.  This stuff needs time to play out, in their locker rooms.

Individual player development, Brad maximizing their skills and Brooklyn's hopefully fading fortunes is a stew that could produce results.  Could, therefore, 'yes and no'.

We are about to start year 3 of a minimum 3-5 year rebuild.  We are on schedule, if not ahead of schedule.


bob



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Hey Worcester, you mentioned The Quiet Man on another thread. It's one of my favorite movies. On our England/Ireland,Scotland trip next June, we're going to be visiting the little village where it was filmed . The scenes in which John Wayne basically drags Maureen O'Hara over the countryside revealed some gorgeous territory, and we're really looking forward to it. Of course I'll have to find a pub with cable in case the Celtics are in the finals.

Sam

bobheckler wrote:We are about to start year 3 of a minimum 3-5 year rebuild.  We are on schedule, if not ahead of schedule.

I'm not so sure. As I've mentioned previously, I think the Rondo fiasco set the rebuild back significantly.

international wrote:True or false the majority of Celtics fans believe that we don't have assets  to make a trade for a star player?

I'm not so sure about this, either. All the draft picks are nice assets, but from a trade perspective, I don't think Boston has what's needed to get a star player. In general, you need one or two near-stars and some draft picks to get a star in trade. Boston doesn't have those second-tier stars.

They had them with Rondo and Green, but then Rondo turned into something far less through injury, lack of motivation, psychosis, or whatever. Jae Crowder is a nice addition, but getting Crowder plus a draft pick was salvaging value for Rondo, not leveraging it to acquire a star. Unfortunately, salvaging value for Rondo was the only option left, and in hindsight, Boston looks like the big winner on that deal, but that's because Rondo's value has plummeted, not because Crowder is a budding second-team all NBA player.

In the aftermath of trading Pierce and KG, Rondo was either the centerpiece to build around or a chip to acquire a star, and Ainge routinely turned down offers for Rondo. That changed, and the impact on the rebuild was significant.

Perhaps they can get a star for a bucket of spare parts like the Knicks did in the Melo deal, but that's not likely. I'd say the Celtics' best chance to become contenders at this point is through the draft, and that's a long process.

Sam, such a good film, The Quiet Man. Gorgeous scenery too, especially the red-head!

I guess she and Wayne were great friends and had many good times together. I bet there was plenty of laughter involved when he was lugging her home.

Sam