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Retooled Celtic Defense Should Turn Some Heads
by bobheckler Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:48 am
http://www.celticsblog.com/2015/7/30/9072109/on-jae-crowder-amir-johnson-perry-jones-and-a-revamped-celtics-defense
On Jae Crowder, Amir Johnson, Perry Jones and a revamped Celtics defense
By evansclinchy @evansclinchy on Jul 30, 2015, 12:00p 50
/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/46863484/usa-today-8519613.0.jpg)
Jae and Amir are now united. - David Butler II-USA TODAY Sports
The Celtics retooled this summer by adding a handful of active, versatile defensive players. How will it help them this coming season?
There's an annual ritual that occurs every summer in the NBA, like clockwork - the moment the final buzzer sounds on the Finals and a winner has been crowned, all 29 other teams in the NBA begin positioning themselves to emulate the new champion. Or, at the very least, they pay a little lip service to the idea of doing so.
It's been going on for a while now. When the Celtics won the title in 2008, every team in the league was racing to tell their fanbases about their vision for the future - one built, no doubt, around veteran leadership, teamwork and defense. When the Heat finally broke through and won the Finals in 2012, then again in '13, everyone wanted to imitate Erik Spoelstra's offense and build a team that could pace, space and hit open jump shots. When the Spurs dethroned Miami in 2014, the words "play like the Spurs" were the league's new favorite mantra, and they were applied to everything from ball movement to managing players' minutes to the way team personnel handled the media. It was an epidemic. No one could be Spurs-like enough.
Now, in 2015, the new champions hail from Golden State, and that means everyone in the league is searching frantically for a way to play like the Warriors. When it comes to the current champs, there are certain things you can easily emulate and certain others you can't. As for the latter: Part of the Warriors' identity is their two leading scorers, Stephen Curry and Klay Thompson, who together constitute quite possibly the best-shooting backcourt in the history of the game. Talented players like that don't just grow on trees. You can't imitate Golden State simply by scooping up a couple of shooters in free agency. The Warriors' guys are next-level.
However, it's worth noting that it was Golden State's defense, moreso than the offense, that was truly the team's calling card. Forget not that the Warriors ranked first in the NBA in points allowed per 100 possessions, with only 101.4; in points scored, they finished the season second behind the Clippers at 111.6 (and for much of the year they trailed Dallas as well, though the Mavs slipped at the end of the year while integrating a certain new point guard who shall remain nameless, but that's a sore subject). In any event, the Warriors were a defensive team first and foremost.
The Warriors' defense, if you ask me, is a far more imitable aspect of their game than their O. It's not about finding "once in a generation"-type talents - guys who go No. 1 in the draft or command $100 million in free agency. It's more about a style of play. The Warriors thrived because of their hardworking, collaborative play on the defensive end of the floor. They also - and this part is really important - gave a lot of minutes to versatile players who had the size and speed to guard multiple positions. They could switch every pick-and-roll, no matter the personnel involved. Point guard on power forward, shooting guard on center, it didn't matter - everyone could guard anyone.
Here's the weird thing: Golden State made the leap from "good" to "great" last fall, and it was largely by accident. They had David Lee penciled in as their starting power forward - a former All-Star and a productive player in terms of points and rebounds, but the complete antithesis of the "all-purpose defensive juggernaut" type the Warriors are now known for employing. Then Lee injured his hamstring during the preseason, and Steve Kerr was stuck with starting Draymond Green instead.
The results were better than anyone - even Green himself - could have imagined. Green meshed beautifully with Harrison Barnes, Thompson and Curry to form a spiderweb of suffocating defense. Bolstered by Andrew Bogut at the rim and Andre Iguodala helping off the bench, the six men teamed up to win 67 regular-season games and an NBA championship.
A month ago, the Warriors won the Finals by taking down the Cleveland Cavaliers - incidentally, the team to which they almost traded Thompson last summer for Kevin Love. Like Lee, Love would have been precisely the wrong player for the type of defensive system the Warriors wanted to implement. As it turns out, they won the title thanks to their Draymond-fueled defense. It makes you think about their team-building strategy (though calling it a "strategy" feels weird because, again, it happened by accident). Here's a relevant tidbit from what Grantland's Zach Lowe wrote about the Warriors' grand experiment during the Finals last month:
"I had no idea Draymond was going to be this good," Kerr admits. "But you look at the way the game is played now, and it’s all about versatility and two-way players. Can you score a basket and then go guard three positions?"
Gathering as many two-way players as possible seems like an obvious goal, but it has become even more urgent for front offices to do this as teams trend toward fast-paced, drive-and-kick offenses heavy on passing and 3s. It's harder to be one-dimensional, on either end, when everyone is moving. Doing everything at a "B" level is the new NBA skill.
...
Most perimeter players can switch among themselves without creating fatal mismatches, but that doesn't do much good against a pick-and-roll involving a point guard and a big man. A power forward who can switch that play has unique value. He is the pivot point between a normal NBA defense and a switching machine that walls off the paint. In a pick-and-roll league, more teams want that player. More teams want their own Draymond Green.
Think about that for a moment. More teams want their own Draymond Green. It's brilliant! Unlike finding your own Steph Curry, which is freaking impossible because Steph Curry is a world-beater, finding your own Draymond is actually a realistic goal. I say this because players like Draymond are still out there to be found, like diamonds in the rough. The real Draymond Green just signed an extension with Golden State for five years and $82 million, but there are probably dozens of guys out there with the potential to play that same role. They just need the opportunity. And they don't all demand massive contracts. It's a market inefficiency - much like baseball players who draw walks back in the pre-"Moneyball" era, switchy defenders in basketball are undervalued, and it's only a matter of time before the market corrects itself. The smart teams know to find talent now, before it's too late.
So. About the Celtics.
The ironic thing is that Danny Ainge went out this summer and did the exact opposite of finding his own Draymond Green - he literally acquired David Lee from the Warriors, taking on precisely the player that Golden State won a championship by benching. However, the Celtics' basketball ops guru also made commitments to a few other guys who I find rather interesting because of their potential Draymond-iness.
Lee was introduced this week at a press conference in Waltham, and standing next to him at the podium holding their own green jerseys were four other recent acquisitions - Jae Crowder, Amir Johnson, Perry Jones III and Jonas Jerebko. Crowder and Jerebko are holdovers from last year's playoff run, of course, while Johnson left the Raptors in free agency this summer and Jones was salary-dumped a couple of weeks ago by Oklahoma City. None of the above four guys is expected to be a difference-maker on a championship team - forget being the next Steph Curry, none of them even looks like Draymond Green. But who's to say that one or more of the Celtics' new guys can't play that same role, serving as a "jack of all trades" defender who can guard multiple positions?
Let's look at a few examples.
This is a play from the Celtics' Game 2 against the Cavaliers this spring. It's a fairly forgettable one - just a basic drive to the basket by Kyrie Irving that ended with a missed layup. But watch what happens at the beginning of this clip. It's quick, but notable - LeBron James brings the ball up the floor, and he's guarded by Crowder. The moment Kyrie even approaches Crowder to begin setting a screen, Crowder switches instantly with Isaiah Thomas, picking up Kyrie while Isaiah takes LeBron. Kyrie takes his chances driving against the bigger, supposedly slower defender; he ends up with an off-balance attempt at a layup, which misses.
Crowder's switch with Thomas was automatic. It was effortless. And it's amazing that the two Celtics defenders moved so seamlessly - after all, you're asking Crowder to transition from guarding the NBA's biggest, baddest man-beast in LeBron to picking up one of the quickest, most agile scorers in Kyrie. Who else in the game could guard both players comfortably? Not Paul Pierce, that's for sure. Against the Celtics of three years ago, this play would have been an automatic two points.
Next, an Amir example:
This play, from a Raptors loss to the Wizards in the first round of the playoffs this year, begins with Johnson guarding Kevin Seraphin, who's milling around at the elbow while the play develops. Louis Williams is guarding ball-handler Ramon Sessions at the top of the key, while Greivis Vasquez is sagging off of Bradley Beal in the left corner, giving him plenty of space. As Beal starts cutting around the arc to meet Seraphin at the top of the key, he loses Vasquez easily. Johnson, who's a bit of a lumbering power forward, is forced to switch onto the lightning-quick, energetic perimeter guy in Beal. Beal drives right and tries to go to the rim, attacking the mismatch - Johnson uses great footwork to double back, protect the rim and force Beal to drive too hard to the right, missing the layup. That's just solid defensive play.
Now here's PJ3 (or are we supposed to call him PJ38 now? I'm not sure):
This one is just awesome. While the Nets frantically shuffle the ball around the floor, looking for an opening to attack the basket, Jones manages to guard three guys at once. He starts out checking Deron Williams, but as Deron cuts along the baseline to the opposite corner, PJ abandons him and picks up Brook Lopez instead. He does a good job on Lopez, first deterring him from the paint and then fronting him in the post to keep from getting the ball inside. Meanwhile, Kevin Garnett curls over to the elbow and demands the ball, and it quickly becomes clear that Kendrick Perkins is in no position to stop KG from driving to the rim. Desperate to prevent the easy layup, Jones decides to re-switch at the last second, leaping into the paint to contest KG's drive and alter his attempt at a layup. KG misses, Reggie Jackson snares the rebound and the Thunder take over.
Jones is a unique player. He's 6-foot-11, 235 pounds, boasting a crazy combination of strength, wingspan and quickness. And it's a good thing, because it takes a unique player to guard Deron, Brook and KG all on the same play. (That's 19 total All-Star selections, if anyone's counting.) It's not easy to find players who can do this stuff; the NBA is still in the early stages of moving toward a positionless game. Most players still have rigidly defined roles. They either guard point guards or power forwards; doing both at once is ludicrous.
Unless, of course, you're Perry Jones. Or Amir Johnson. Or Jae Crowder.
No one's going to put these recent Celtics acquisitions up against the LaMarcus Aldridges or Greg Monroes of the world. These are not marquee signings. But if you ask me, they are meaningful. The Celtics are a young squad that's still building for their long-term future; they're a lump of clay that still needs to be shaped into a team with a real identity.
They don't have that identity yet. It would be just about impossible to expect them to. They have about 94 guys on the roster at the moment (that's only a slight exaggeration), and they can't even say definitively who will see the floor come November, who will warm the bench and who will be looking for work. You can't start scheming to win a championship if you don't even know who you are yet. This roster is not Danny Ainge's finished product. It's a bus stop somewhere in between Rebuild Road and Banner Boulevard. It's not clear whether anyone in this current group is capable of being the best player on a title contender. Maybe not even the second-best.
But in committing to the three players you see above (and the Celtics have more than just those three - Avery Bradley and Marcus Smart are no defensive slouches, either), Ainge has made a statement. He's made it known the kind of talent that he believes in. He's found an archetype of player that he believes will be successful in tomorrow's NBA. He may not have found his own Draymond Green, exactly, but he's building a team full of guys who can do a solid impression.
bob
.
On Jae Crowder, Amir Johnson, Perry Jones and a revamped Celtics defense
By evansclinchy @evansclinchy on Jul 30, 2015, 12:00p 50
Jae and Amir are now united. - David Butler II-USA TODAY Sports
The Celtics retooled this summer by adding a handful of active, versatile defensive players. How will it help them this coming season?
There's an annual ritual that occurs every summer in the NBA, like clockwork - the moment the final buzzer sounds on the Finals and a winner has been crowned, all 29 other teams in the NBA begin positioning themselves to emulate the new champion. Or, at the very least, they pay a little lip service to the idea of doing so.
It's been going on for a while now. When the Celtics won the title in 2008, every team in the league was racing to tell their fanbases about their vision for the future - one built, no doubt, around veteran leadership, teamwork and defense. When the Heat finally broke through and won the Finals in 2012, then again in '13, everyone wanted to imitate Erik Spoelstra's offense and build a team that could pace, space and hit open jump shots. When the Spurs dethroned Miami in 2014, the words "play like the Spurs" were the league's new favorite mantra, and they were applied to everything from ball movement to managing players' minutes to the way team personnel handled the media. It was an epidemic. No one could be Spurs-like enough.
Now, in 2015, the new champions hail from Golden State, and that means everyone in the league is searching frantically for a way to play like the Warriors. When it comes to the current champs, there are certain things you can easily emulate and certain others you can't. As for the latter: Part of the Warriors' identity is their two leading scorers, Stephen Curry and Klay Thompson, who together constitute quite possibly the best-shooting backcourt in the history of the game. Talented players like that don't just grow on trees. You can't imitate Golden State simply by scooping up a couple of shooters in free agency. The Warriors' guys are next-level.
However, it's worth noting that it was Golden State's defense, moreso than the offense, that was truly the team's calling card. Forget not that the Warriors ranked first in the NBA in points allowed per 100 possessions, with only 101.4; in points scored, they finished the season second behind the Clippers at 111.6 (and for much of the year they trailed Dallas as well, though the Mavs slipped at the end of the year while integrating a certain new point guard who shall remain nameless, but that's a sore subject). In any event, the Warriors were a defensive team first and foremost.
The Warriors' defense, if you ask me, is a far more imitable aspect of their game than their O. It's not about finding "once in a generation"-type talents - guys who go No. 1 in the draft or command $100 million in free agency. It's more about a style of play. The Warriors thrived because of their hardworking, collaborative play on the defensive end of the floor. They also - and this part is really important - gave a lot of minutes to versatile players who had the size and speed to guard multiple positions. They could switch every pick-and-roll, no matter the personnel involved. Point guard on power forward, shooting guard on center, it didn't matter - everyone could guard anyone.
Here's the weird thing: Golden State made the leap from "good" to "great" last fall, and it was largely by accident. They had David Lee penciled in as their starting power forward - a former All-Star and a productive player in terms of points and rebounds, but the complete antithesis of the "all-purpose defensive juggernaut" type the Warriors are now known for employing. Then Lee injured his hamstring during the preseason, and Steve Kerr was stuck with starting Draymond Green instead.
The results were better than anyone - even Green himself - could have imagined. Green meshed beautifully with Harrison Barnes, Thompson and Curry to form a spiderweb of suffocating defense. Bolstered by Andrew Bogut at the rim and Andre Iguodala helping off the bench, the six men teamed up to win 67 regular-season games and an NBA championship.
A month ago, the Warriors won the Finals by taking down the Cleveland Cavaliers - incidentally, the team to which they almost traded Thompson last summer for Kevin Love. Like Lee, Love would have been precisely the wrong player for the type of defensive system the Warriors wanted to implement. As it turns out, they won the title thanks to their Draymond-fueled defense. It makes you think about their team-building strategy (though calling it a "strategy" feels weird because, again, it happened by accident). Here's a relevant tidbit from what Grantland's Zach Lowe wrote about the Warriors' grand experiment during the Finals last month:
"I had no idea Draymond was going to be this good," Kerr admits. "But you look at the way the game is played now, and it’s all about versatility and two-way players. Can you score a basket and then go guard three positions?"
Gathering as many two-way players as possible seems like an obvious goal, but it has become even more urgent for front offices to do this as teams trend toward fast-paced, drive-and-kick offenses heavy on passing and 3s. It's harder to be one-dimensional, on either end, when everyone is moving. Doing everything at a "B" level is the new NBA skill.
...
Most perimeter players can switch among themselves without creating fatal mismatches, but that doesn't do much good against a pick-and-roll involving a point guard and a big man. A power forward who can switch that play has unique value. He is the pivot point between a normal NBA defense and a switching machine that walls off the paint. In a pick-and-roll league, more teams want that player. More teams want their own Draymond Green.
Think about that for a moment. More teams want their own Draymond Green. It's brilliant! Unlike finding your own Steph Curry, which is freaking impossible because Steph Curry is a world-beater, finding your own Draymond is actually a realistic goal. I say this because players like Draymond are still out there to be found, like diamonds in the rough. The real Draymond Green just signed an extension with Golden State for five years and $82 million, but there are probably dozens of guys out there with the potential to play that same role. They just need the opportunity. And they don't all demand massive contracts. It's a market inefficiency - much like baseball players who draw walks back in the pre-"Moneyball" era, switchy defenders in basketball are undervalued, and it's only a matter of time before the market corrects itself. The smart teams know to find talent now, before it's too late.
So. About the Celtics.
The ironic thing is that Danny Ainge went out this summer and did the exact opposite of finding his own Draymond Green - he literally acquired David Lee from the Warriors, taking on precisely the player that Golden State won a championship by benching. However, the Celtics' basketball ops guru also made commitments to a few other guys who I find rather interesting because of their potential Draymond-iness.
Lee was introduced this week at a press conference in Waltham, and standing next to him at the podium holding their own green jerseys were four other recent acquisitions - Jae Crowder, Amir Johnson, Perry Jones III and Jonas Jerebko. Crowder and Jerebko are holdovers from last year's playoff run, of course, while Johnson left the Raptors in free agency this summer and Jones was salary-dumped a couple of weeks ago by Oklahoma City. None of the above four guys is expected to be a difference-maker on a championship team - forget being the next Steph Curry, none of them even looks like Draymond Green. But who's to say that one or more of the Celtics' new guys can't play that same role, serving as a "jack of all trades" defender who can guard multiple positions?
Let's look at a few examples.
This is a play from the Celtics' Game 2 against the Cavaliers this spring. It's a fairly forgettable one - just a basic drive to the basket by Kyrie Irving that ended with a missed layup. But watch what happens at the beginning of this clip. It's quick, but notable - LeBron James brings the ball up the floor, and he's guarded by Crowder. The moment Kyrie even approaches Crowder to begin setting a screen, Crowder switches instantly with Isaiah Thomas, picking up Kyrie while Isaiah takes LeBron. Kyrie takes his chances driving against the bigger, supposedly slower defender; he ends up with an off-balance attempt at a layup, which misses.
Crowder's switch with Thomas was automatic. It was effortless. And it's amazing that the two Celtics defenders moved so seamlessly - after all, you're asking Crowder to transition from guarding the NBA's biggest, baddest man-beast in LeBron to picking up one of the quickest, most agile scorers in Kyrie. Who else in the game could guard both players comfortably? Not Paul Pierce, that's for sure. Against the Celtics of three years ago, this play would have been an automatic two points.
Next, an Amir example:
This play, from a Raptors loss to the Wizards in the first round of the playoffs this year, begins with Johnson guarding Kevin Seraphin, who's milling around at the elbow while the play develops. Louis Williams is guarding ball-handler Ramon Sessions at the top of the key, while Greivis Vasquez is sagging off of Bradley Beal in the left corner, giving him plenty of space. As Beal starts cutting around the arc to meet Seraphin at the top of the key, he loses Vasquez easily. Johnson, who's a bit of a lumbering power forward, is forced to switch onto the lightning-quick, energetic perimeter guy in Beal. Beal drives right and tries to go to the rim, attacking the mismatch - Johnson uses great footwork to double back, protect the rim and force Beal to drive too hard to the right, missing the layup. That's just solid defensive play.
Now here's PJ3 (or are we supposed to call him PJ38 now? I'm not sure):
This one is just awesome. While the Nets frantically shuffle the ball around the floor, looking for an opening to attack the basket, Jones manages to guard three guys at once. He starts out checking Deron Williams, but as Deron cuts along the baseline to the opposite corner, PJ abandons him and picks up Brook Lopez instead. He does a good job on Lopez, first deterring him from the paint and then fronting him in the post to keep from getting the ball inside. Meanwhile, Kevin Garnett curls over to the elbow and demands the ball, and it quickly becomes clear that Kendrick Perkins is in no position to stop KG from driving to the rim. Desperate to prevent the easy layup, Jones decides to re-switch at the last second, leaping into the paint to contest KG's drive and alter his attempt at a layup. KG misses, Reggie Jackson snares the rebound and the Thunder take over.
Jones is a unique player. He's 6-foot-11, 235 pounds, boasting a crazy combination of strength, wingspan and quickness. And it's a good thing, because it takes a unique player to guard Deron, Brook and KG all on the same play. (That's 19 total All-Star selections, if anyone's counting.) It's not easy to find players who can do this stuff; the NBA is still in the early stages of moving toward a positionless game. Most players still have rigidly defined roles. They either guard point guards or power forwards; doing both at once is ludicrous.
Unless, of course, you're Perry Jones. Or Amir Johnson. Or Jae Crowder.
No one's going to put these recent Celtics acquisitions up against the LaMarcus Aldridges or Greg Monroes of the world. These are not marquee signings. But if you ask me, they are meaningful. The Celtics are a young squad that's still building for their long-term future; they're a lump of clay that still needs to be shaped into a team with a real identity.
They don't have that identity yet. It would be just about impossible to expect them to. They have about 94 guys on the roster at the moment (that's only a slight exaggeration), and they can't even say definitively who will see the floor come November, who will warm the bench and who will be looking for work. You can't start scheming to win a championship if you don't even know who you are yet. This roster is not Danny Ainge's finished product. It's a bus stop somewhere in between Rebuild Road and Banner Boulevard. It's not clear whether anyone in this current group is capable of being the best player on a title contender. Maybe not even the second-best.
But in committing to the three players you see above (and the Celtics have more than just those three - Avery Bradley and Marcus Smart are no defensive slouches, either), Ainge has made a statement. He's made it known the kind of talent that he believes in. He's found an archetype of player that he believes will be successful in tomorrow's NBA. He may not have found his own Draymond Green, exactly, but he's building a team full of guys who can do a solid impression.
bob
.
bobheckler- Posts : 62619
Join date : 2009-10-28
Re: Retooled Celtic Defense Should Turn Some Heads
by Sam Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:53 am
It's exciting to hope the defense of this team can be much better this season. But, when I think of five-man combos, my focus immediately goes to the five who are most likely to finish. As things stand right now (pending more deals by Danny), I'd nominate:
Thomas PG
Turner SG
Crowder SF
Amir PF
Lee C
This is probably not the Celtics' strongest offensive team or strong defensive team. It's more of an all-purpose compromise—a starting point from which players might be shuttled in or out depending on the situation, the nature of the opposition and the matchups. Brad's certainly not averse to interchanging players from possession to possession.
Sam
Thomas PG
Turner SG
Crowder SF
Amir PF
Lee C
This is probably not the Celtics' strongest offensive team or strong defensive team. It's more of an all-purpose compromise—a starting point from which players might be shuttled in or out depending on the situation, the nature of the opposition and the matchups. Brad's certainly not averse to interchanging players from possession to possession.
Sam
Sam- Admin
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Re: Retooled Celtic Defense Should Turn Some Heads
by cowens/oldschool Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:32 pm
I'd go with
Smart
Hunter
Crowder
Mickey
Sully
Smart
Hunter
Crowder
Mickey
Sully
cowens/oldschool- Posts : 27706
Join date : 2009-10-18
Re: Retooled Celtic Defense Should Turn Some Heads
by bobheckler Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:59 pm
cowens/oldschool wrote:I'd go with
Smart
Hunter
Crowder
Mickey
Sully
cow,
You don't see that as being small-ball? The tallest player on that lineup is Sully at 6'9". Mickey and Hunter have never laced up an NBA sneaker yet.
I will say one thing, though. You have either totally embraced Danny's drafting skills (4 out of 5 are his draftees, including 2 from this year, and the 2 from this year were #28 and #33 picks) and are also giving him credit for trades (Crowder, even though he came for Rondo) or you just hate the rest of the roster so much you see these 5 players as the best of a very bad bargain.
Which is it?
bob
.
bobheckler- Posts : 62619
Join date : 2009-10-28
Re: Retooled Celtic Defense Should Turn Some Heads
by dboss Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:39 pm
I have no idea who finishes.
I would think that Brad may very well decide that based on circumstances.
For example if the team is down and needs to put a lot of points on the board I could see
Thomas
Bradley
Turner
Johnson
Lee
If the focus is heavy on the defensive side I might go with
Smart
Bradley
Crowder
Sully
Johnson
Obviously there are so many different combinations to consider. A mix of offense and defense could look like
Thomas
Bradley
Turner
Crowder
Lee
dboss
I would think that Brad may very well decide that based on circumstances.
For example if the team is down and needs to put a lot of points on the board I could see
Thomas
Bradley
Turner
Johnson
Lee
If the focus is heavy on the defensive side I might go with
Smart
Bradley
Crowder
Sully
Johnson
Obviously there are so many different combinations to consider. A mix of offense and defense could look like
Thomas
Bradley
Turner
Crowder
Lee
dboss
dboss- Posts : 19219
Join date : 2009-11-01
Re: Retooled Celtic Defense Should Turn Some Heads
by tjmakz Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:23 pm
dboss wrote:I have no idea who finishes.
I would think that Brad may very well decide that based on circumstances.
For example if the team is down and needs to put a lot of points on the board I could see
Thomas
Bradley
Turner
Johnson
Lee
If the focus is heavy on the defensive side I might go with
Smart
Bradley
Crowder
Sully
Johnson
Obviously there are so many different combinations to consider. A mix of offense and defense could look like
Thomas
Bradley
Turner
Crowder
Lee
dboss
dboss,
I agree with you that these should be the 5 to end games.
Thomas
Bradley
Turner
Johnson
Lee
I feel that Smart is too erratic to be counted on down the stretch.
Maybe Smart will improve his FG and FT%, but he's not there yet.
tjmakz- Posts : 4278
Join date : 2010-05-19
Re: Retooled Celtic Defense Should Turn Some Heads
by cowens/oldschool Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:02 pm
bobheckler wrote:cowens/oldschool wrote:I'd go with
Smart
Hunter
Crowder
Mickey
Sully
cow,
You don't see that as being small-ball? The tallest player on that lineup is Sully at 6'9". Mickey and Hunter have never laced up an NBA sneaker yet.
I will say one thing, though. You have either totally embraced Danny's drafting skills (4 out of 5 are his draftees, including 2 from this year, and the 2 from this year were #28 and #33 picks) and are also giving him credit for trades (Crowder, even though he came for Rondo) or you just hate the rest of the roster so much you see these 5 players as the best of a very bad bargain.
Which is it?
bob
.
with our 2 lame 7 footers I'd rather go with a potential shotblocker like Mickey and hoping for a big year from Sully as he is our best banger, rebounder and inside finisher, you need the ball to score, Sully and Mickey may create the best opportunity to get the ball off the glass.
cowens/oldschool- Posts : 27706
Join date : 2009-10-18
Re: Retooled Celtic Defense Should Turn Some Heads
by Outside Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:13 pm
It's nice to see the article talking about the Warriors' defense as key to their identity. You obviously have to be good at both ends of the court to win a title, but the Warriors' offense gets most of the attention, especially with their small-ball lineup, while the defense is equally important.
I disagree with a couple of points the author makes. Draymond Green may have been better than Kerr thought he would be, but the player he was all year was on display in the playoffs against the Clippers last year, so Green stepping up this way wasn't a complete surprise. Also, GM Bob Myers has spent several years consistently acquiring long, like-sized guys who can play and defend multiple positions, so their switching defense wasn't an "accident" that they stumbled onto when David Lee got hurt; it was clearly created by design. But those are minor points that Celtics-centric folks here probably don't care about.
As far as the Celtics go, it will be interesting to see if Stevens buys in to a switching defense or at least regularly using lineups that can do that. They do have more players able to do that, though they have some that aren't so well equipped for that role -- Sullinger, Olynyk, Zeller, Thomas, Lee. Lineups can be effective at masking one player who is a switching liability, but no more than that.
The Crowder example points out his Draymond-ness in being able to guard Kyrie, but it fails to mention that the other half of the switch was Isaiah Thomas on LeBron, which the Cavs could obviously exploit to great advantage. The Celtics could use swarming help defenders and long arms in passing lanes to deal with that mismatch, but that type of defense takes time to get right. The split-second difference between anticipating each other's moves versus reacting to them is the difference that determines whether the defense works, and it may take a couple of seasons to get it consistently right.
The ability to have Crowder defend multiple positions is necessary to make the switching defense work, but equally important is the backside part dealing with mismatches like Thomas on LeBron. The Cavs tried to create mismatches in the finals by dragging Curry or Bogut into screens over and over, but the Warriors neutralized the Bogut issue by benching him and neutralized the Curry issue through switchbacks, double-teams, and Curry being a pretty decent defender.
Another factor that wasn't mentioned in the article is rebounding. These switching lineups are ostensibly rebounding-challenged, and players HAVE to box out and go get that ball. Once the defense is clicking, that naturally works better, because playing that type of defense requires a hyper-aggressive mindset that also works well when it comes to rebounding, and those long arms that work so well in passing lanes also work well at reaching up for rebounds.
Ainge may not have been able to pull off fireworks for acquiring impact players for the offensive end, but it will be interesting to see if this year's team will be an upgrade on the defensive end. But it's a deceptively difficult defense to master, especially for players conditioned to use a bag of tricks to avoid switching, as most teams do. If the Celtics buy in to this type of defense, it will likely take time to get it right.
I disagree with a couple of points the author makes. Draymond Green may have been better than Kerr thought he would be, but the player he was all year was on display in the playoffs against the Clippers last year, so Green stepping up this way wasn't a complete surprise. Also, GM Bob Myers has spent several years consistently acquiring long, like-sized guys who can play and defend multiple positions, so their switching defense wasn't an "accident" that they stumbled onto when David Lee got hurt; it was clearly created by design. But those are minor points that Celtics-centric folks here probably don't care about.
As far as the Celtics go, it will be interesting to see if Stevens buys in to a switching defense or at least regularly using lineups that can do that. They do have more players able to do that, though they have some that aren't so well equipped for that role -- Sullinger, Olynyk, Zeller, Thomas, Lee. Lineups can be effective at masking one player who is a switching liability, but no more than that.
The Crowder example points out his Draymond-ness in being able to guard Kyrie, but it fails to mention that the other half of the switch was Isaiah Thomas on LeBron, which the Cavs could obviously exploit to great advantage. The Celtics could use swarming help defenders and long arms in passing lanes to deal with that mismatch, but that type of defense takes time to get right. The split-second difference between anticipating each other's moves versus reacting to them is the difference that determines whether the defense works, and it may take a couple of seasons to get it consistently right.
The ability to have Crowder defend multiple positions is necessary to make the switching defense work, but equally important is the backside part dealing with mismatches like Thomas on LeBron. The Cavs tried to create mismatches in the finals by dragging Curry or Bogut into screens over and over, but the Warriors neutralized the Bogut issue by benching him and neutralized the Curry issue through switchbacks, double-teams, and Curry being a pretty decent defender.
Another factor that wasn't mentioned in the article is rebounding. These switching lineups are ostensibly rebounding-challenged, and players HAVE to box out and go get that ball. Once the defense is clicking, that naturally works better, because playing that type of defense requires a hyper-aggressive mindset that also works well when it comes to rebounding, and those long arms that work so well in passing lanes also work well at reaching up for rebounds.
Ainge may not have been able to pull off fireworks for acquiring impact players for the offensive end, but it will be interesting to see if this year's team will be an upgrade on the defensive end. But it's a deceptively difficult defense to master, especially for players conditioned to use a bag of tricks to avoid switching, as most teams do. If the Celtics buy in to this type of defense, it will likely take time to get it right.
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Re: Retooled Celtic Defense Should Turn Some Heads
by Sam Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:57 pm
One of the top priorities in selecting a five to finish is poise. Mickey and Hunter may have potential, but they'll have to prove their poiseworthiness before being in there at the end of games.
Sam
Sam
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Re: Retooled Celtic Defense Should Turn Some Heads
by dboss Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:26 pm
I am reluctant to mention Mickey in any of the lineups for finishing a game.
He is a rookie and while he has shown a lot of abilities he is still a rookie. At some point we may very well see him down the stretch because he may be our best shot blocker on the team.
This team does not have that one great offensive player but the depth of players who can play multiple positions is evident.
Adding veterans like Lee and Johnson will transform this team from good to very good.
I also want to mention Sully again. if he is able to maintain a high level of energy and stamina he can still be a force down on the block.
The Celtics rebounding should be better because they added a real solid rebounder in David Lee.
dboss
He is a rookie and while he has shown a lot of abilities he is still a rookie. At some point we may very well see him down the stretch because he may be our best shot blocker on the team.
This team does not have that one great offensive player but the depth of players who can play multiple positions is evident.
Adding veterans like Lee and Johnson will transform this team from good to very good.
I also want to mention Sully again. if he is able to maintain a high level of energy and stamina he can still be a force down on the block.
The Celtics rebounding should be better because they added a real solid rebounder in David Lee.
dboss
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Re: Retooled Celtic Defense Should Turn Some Heads
by cowens/oldschool Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:00 pm
sam wrote:One of the top priorities in selecting a five to finish is poise. Mickey and Hunter may have potential, but they'll have to prove their poiseworthiness before being in there at the end of games.
Sam
agreed, but I see alot of star potential in Hunter, he has ideal size and a very legit long range game, he has to get stronger and has alot to learn and prove, but has other passing and defensive intangibles that makes me think he'll get it. Mickey as a much needed defensive force/presence is a reflection as to what I think of our 5's as I know were loaded at the PF spot.
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Re: Retooled Celtic Defense Should Turn Some Heads
by Sam Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:27 pm
Cow,
True, but potential doesn't overcome the fact that they need to develop the kind of poise that only experience can produce.
Sam
True, but potential doesn't overcome the fact that they need to develop the kind of poise that only experience can produce.
Sam
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