Horford To BOSTON

bobheckler wrote:Ramona Shelburne
Ramona Shelburne – Verified account ‏@ramonashelburne

Al Horford's four-year, $113 million deal with the Celtics includes a player option after the third year,...  http://es.pn/29hQtRh
7:15 PM - 2 Jul 2016



bob


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That's still virtually four years guaranteed. You think Horford at age 34, when he most certainly will be on the downside of his career, would ever turn down $28.25 million for the 2019-2020 season? Not a chance.

‘I’m gonna play for the Celtics, Dad. I don’t know who else they might get, but I’m here.’ Story of Horford signing:


https://t.co/BHDScZ49S0





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bobheckler wrote:‘I’m gonna play for the Celtics, Dad. I don’t know who else they might get, but I’m here.’ Story of Horford signing:


https://t.co/BHDScZ49S0





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This is what I get when I click on that link:


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Anybody have any suggestions on how to get around that?

Steve,

It is better then what we have had since Perkins was traded.

Horford does multiple things very well > sets great picks > plays angles well and is quick > can score > can defend well > and is athletic.

But who is a dominate center in the NBA now besides the boggie man in Sacramento............most teams are going to versatile athletic centers who can play down low or go out to defend and who can run.

112288

112288 wrote:Steve,

It is better then what we have had since Perkins was traded.

Horford does multiple things very well > sets great picks > plays angles well and is quick > can score > can defend well > and is athletic.

But who is a dominate center in the NBA now besides the boggie man in Sacramento............most teams are going to versatile athletic centers who can play down low or go out to defend and who can run.

112288

"It is better then what we have had since Perkins was traded."

Certainly not arguing that. We've been pathetic at center since then. No rim protection and no offensive post presence on offense from the five spot. Those two things have been our most glaring need since the days of KG and Perk. Just ask Cowens.

Horford is definitely an upgrade. But don't go crazy over him. He's just a very nice player.

112288 wrote:Steve,

It is better then what we have had since Perkins was traded.

Horford does multiple things very well > sets great picks > plays angles well and is quick > can score > can defend well > and is athletic.

But who is a dominate center in the NBA now besides the boggie man in Sacramento............most teams are going to versatile athletic centers who can play down low or go out to defend and who can run.

112288

Dwight Howard just came to the East, so he'll be a pain in the az for us. And Atlanta appears to have just chosen Dwight over Horford. I wouldn't mind bringing Sully back for depth and insurance purposes.

Al Horford vs Dwight Howard NASTY BIG-Men Duel 2015.12.29 - 30 Pts Each!

In fairness, Horford isn't much on the defensive end.  As I said earlier, combine this signing with a big defensive center who can board and we've really got something.  The signing is OK, as long as we can eventually get Horford back to PF and get a center.

(Anyone else's spell correct keep turning Horford into Hereford?)

Just got the news.
Buckle up guys, we're on our way and if we get Durant too - #18 will be ours within two years at the latest!

Berlin-T

NYCelt wrote:In fairness, Horford isn't much on the defensive end.  As I said earlier, combine this signing with a big defensive center who can board and we've really got something.  The signing is OK, as long as we can eventually get Horford back to PF and get a center.

(Anyone else's spell correct keep turning Horford into Hereford?)

Isn't much you say?

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/120856/al-horford-will-bring-consistency-and-defense-to-boston-celtics


Quote from the above piece.

"Horford ranks as one of the league’s best post defenders, as shown through video review. Horford defended 262 direct posts in the 2015-16 regular season (that's a post-up attempt in which a player shoots, is fouled, turns the ball over or passes to a shooter), more than any other player in the NBA.

He allowed players to score 0.84 points per direct post. Among the top 12 players with the most direct posts defended, only defensive player of the year runner-up Draymond Green allowed fewer points per direct post (0.72).

Horford had a career-high 121 blocked shots in 2015-16 and will fill a need there; the Celtics ranked 22nd in the NBA in blocked shots. Last season was the first in which he played all 82 games."


He is certainly better than anything we had in the post the last 2 seasons. Plus he made 88 treys and shot 34% from behind the arc


beat

Gang, I'm traveling to Quebec by car but finally got online to celebrate the Horford news Whoopee!!!!!
Go Celtics! Much rather have him the=an Howard. What was Atlanta thinking? Oh yeah, their fans could care less anyways!

worcester wrote:Gang, I'm traveling to Quebec by car but finally got online to celebrate the Horford news Whoopee!!!!!
Go Celtics! Much rather have him the=an Howard. What was Atlanta thinking? Oh yeah, their fans could care less anyways!

both of them !!

beat

Beat,

Watch some extended game video of Horford.  He gets pushed around by bigger centers all the time.  Interesting statistics, but watch him play.  If we're thinking build for a championship, that means ultimately playing against some of the big centers out west.

He may be better than what we've had at center, but he's way better as a power forward in today's game.  Especially now that he's developed that perimeter shot. Also, his 15/7 averages are below his capability. In the right position and system, he's quite possibly even a 20/10 guy. We need to put him in the right situation to achieve that.

Regards

cowens/oldschool wrote:

NYCelt wrote:In fairness, Horford isn't much on the defensive end.  As I said earlier, combine this signing with a big defensive center who can board and we've really got something.  The signing is OK, as long as we can eventually get Horford back to PF and get a center.

(Anyone else's spell correct keep turning Horford into Hereford?)

whats the matter? don't we have Olynck?

NYCelt wrote:Beat,

Watch some extended game video of Horford.  He gets pushed around by bigger centers all the time.  Interesting statistics, but watch him play.  If we're thinking build for a championship, that means ultimately playing against some of the big centers out west.

He may be better than what we've had at center, but he's way better as a power forward in today's game.  Especially now that he's developed that perimeter shot.

Regards

Just how many GOOD big centers are there?
And what do they do?

Just not that many out there and who pray tell who is even available ?

beat

NYCelt wrote:Beat,

Watch some extended game video of Horford.  He gets pushed around by bigger centers all the time.  Interesting statistics, but watch him play.  If we're thinking build for a championship, that means ultimately playing against some of the big centers out west.

He may be better than what we've had at center, but he's way better as a power forward in today's game.  Especially now that he's developed that perimeter shot.  Also, his 15/7 averages are below his capability.  In the right position and system, he's quite possibly even a 20/10 guy.  We need to put him in the right situation to achieve that.

Regards

Only Steven Adams and DeAndre Jordan are big centers out west on contenders for a title and I'm not worried if Horford is guarding them. Same with Al on Green/Bogut or Aldridge, or Thompson of the Cavs. 

He is a very good defensive player. 

His rebounding numbers on the other hand are nothing to get excited about.

But, will he continue to wear a t-shirt under his uni? Just like the horrid NBA "jerseys" - ugh. Maybe playing without the t-shirt would allow for more arm freedom, but he's very welcome under any circumstances. Who's next - sign or trade?

I'm not sure I understand the negative undercurrent on this thread.

Horford is a 4x all-star, including last year and the year before.  So it's not like he had a few good years when he was young and burst onto the scene and has fallen off in his 30 year old dotage.  

A 4x All-Star is not "a nice player".   That's a player that was selected by the All-Star coaching staff, who determined he was worthy of being on that squad, not by the ballot-stuffing buffoons who voted Kobe Bryant onto the All-Star team as a starter in 2013-2014 even though he tore his Achilles 6 games into the season.

I'd love the hear the opinions of board members like dboss and kj88 (or any others), who live in the Atlanta and have watched many Horford games.  I, for one, am not paying attention to his stats.  Horford is not a Dwight Howard/Hassan Whiteside/DeAndre Jordan type of center.  He is a modern, mobile center who will stretch and spread the floor on offense and can cover the perimeter on defense when there is a mismatch.  If you're out at the 3pt arc running a shooter off the line you're probably not going to get that rebound but you are the one responsible for creating the rebound by forcing a harder shot or a 2pt fgm rather thana  3pt fgm.

And even if one of those 3 are better and more desirable than Al Horford only Howard was available.  Whiteside was locked up and taken off the market by Pat Riley immediately.  Would you rather have Dwight Howard or Al Horford?  I'd rather have Horford. Then again, I'd rather have a colonoscopy without anaesthesia than the Dwightmare.


bob


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So where does the KG signing stand with you? I know he was traded, but had refused to sign any extension with them foIr a couple of years. KG finally gave in when they traded for Ray and decided that this was a place where he could win a title. So...............that to me is an important signing as he extended after he go traded.
If he continued to refuse to play here, NO TITLE 17.

I love the Horford signing but everything in it's proper perspective. If this, by any chance, brings us KD, then I would have to agree. Until such time, I will go with other signings as being just as pivotable.

"Those two things have been our most glaring need since the days of KG and Perk. Just ask Cowens."


No, please don't ask Cowens, PLEEEEASSSE!!!  I think I've almost finally calmed him down a bit.


bob


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arambone,

I don't think Atlanta chose Howard over Horford.  I base that upon their mad scramble to sweeten the offer to him by adding a 5th year and by actively shopping Millsap around the league to make the salary cap room for Horford.  I think what they were counting on was Horford's loyalty to the only team he has ever played for.  That's why they didn't offer him 5 years right off the bat, they thought he'd say "ok, whatever, good enough".  Furthermore, I think they expected him to be ok with moving to PF.  They misjudged him, obviously, but I'm not sure that fully translates to "they chose Dwight over Horford".  They wanted both and got greedy.  They snapped at the bait dangled by Howard and thought they would still have the inside track with Horford as if nothing happened. Now, they have Howard instead of Horford. I'm not sure that's an upgrade in Mike Budenholzer's system. They also probably have a pissed off and insulted Paul Millsap.



Turns out Horford is even smarter than we give him credit for:

Factor No. 1, according to league sources: Horford was none too pleased with how reluctant the Hawks were to come forward with a full five-year max. Factor No. 2: Atlanta’s signing of Dwight Howard. Could there be a more contradicting force in the NBA to Horford than Howard, in terms of substance vs. style? “He didn’t want to play with Dwight,” a person familiar with the situation told CBS Sports. 7 hours ago – via CBSSports.com

Horford’s father, Tito, said in a telephone interview Saturday night that his son had narrowed his choices down to the Hawks and the Celtics. As the family discussed the options, the conversation often returned to the uncommon passion of Boston’s fans. In Atlanta, support at home games was sometimes tepid, despite the fact that the Hawks had gone 108-56 over the last two years. “There wasn’t as much motivation for him when he saw all the empty seats when they were winning,” Tito Horford said. “He said to me, ‘Dad, when we were playing Boston, they were down 15 points and they were cheering their team like they were winning the game. They’re so into the game.’ This is special for us, especially for him.” 13 hours ago – via Boston Globe


bob


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http://basketball.realgm.com/analysis/242617/Grading-The-Deal-Al-Horford-Chooses-Boston



Grading The Deal: Al Horford Chooses Boston
BY CHRISTOPHER REINA

JUL 2, 2016 8:22 PM


There is very little immediately exciting about Al Horford’s game but he’s one of the NBA’s most consistent, versatile and well-rounded talents. Horford offers a ton of lineup combination possibilities with his unique versatility on both sides of the floor. Horford is an All-Star caliber talent not because he changes the game as much as he accentuates the positives his team already possesses.

Horford quintessentially demonstrates the sum of being pretty good at everything makes you really good in the aggregate.

This is also the type of team the Boston Celtics have been over the past two seasons under Brad Stevens as a surprise playoff team in 2015 and nearly a 50-win team in 2016. The success hasn’t translated in the playoffs when their dearth of truly elite players becomes more problematic.

But after two long days of negotiations, Horford agreed to sign with the Celtics on a four-year, $113 million full max contract. The Atlanta Hawks improved their five-year offer up to $136 million but were never prepared to go all the way up to his full max of $153 million.

Horford attempted just 16 three-pointers in his first six NBA seasons combined, 11 in Year 7 and then 256 in Year 8 while shooting at a very competent 34.4 percent. Horford hasn’t merely been a corner three-point shooter even taking above the break three-pointers with regularity. If Horford hadn’t developed that part of the game, it would have been interesting how his free agency at the age of 30 would have played out; certainly with far less dollars and teams interested.

Horford has also become a gifted passer in Atlanta’s ball movement offense and also as a passer and scorer as the roll man. Horford scored 1.13 points per possession as the roll man, which was one of the best rates in the NBA amongst such heavy volume bigs.

But for as much as the Hawks’ offense was celebrated in 14-15 when they ranked sixth in points per 100 possessions, they swiftly dropped to 22nd this past season.

Horford does well defending just about any opposing big regardless if they’re athletic power forwards that also play on the perimeter, or if they are strong centers who score in the post. Horford isn’t a natural rim protector but he maximizes whatever length and athleticism he has by playing smart defense. While the offense dropped, the Hawks ranked second in the NBA in defense and were 1.8 points per 100 possessions better with him on the floor. Horford doesn’t solve Boston’s rim protection issues but they’ve already proven to be a great defensive team without it and he makes them substantially better.

Horford allowed just 0.80 points per possession in the post against the most attempts in the NBA.

Horford also ranked 27th in Real Plus Minus in the entire NBA this past season.

The concern with Horford’s contract has been his anticipated decline in the final years of the contract. This is why the Hawks were so reluctant to go big in Year 5 and it becomes far less problematic for Boston on a four-year deal. Because he’s become such a quality perimeter shooter, Horford should remain a productive, playable player but is still was a harrowing proposition for a smaller market franchise like the Hawks.

Boston has infamously had a ton of assets and a ton of role players and now they finally have a legitimate All-Star who can play both big positions while also spacing the floor. The Celtics sign Horford without giving up any of those assets, which makes it easier to get another star and the versatility he brings makes a number of combination of player(s) a logical fit. Boston had an easier time trading for Kevin Garnett in 2007 after already acquiring Ray Allen in June, so this first signing mirrors that one except it cost Danny Ainge nothing but cap space.

Grade for Celtics: A

Horford could have gone down as the most important player in Hawks’ history, eclipsing even Dominique Wilkins, had he re-signed and played out his career with a single franchise. Horford instead played a lot of quality basketball in Atlanta and 74 playoff games.

The Memphis Grizzlies gave Mike Conley the full max on the first day of free agency, yet the Hawks were never prepared to make that type of commitment to Horford and he was wise to instead move onto a new challenge. The Celtics are capable of evolving into title contenders with their collection of assets and Horford becomes the first major player to choose to join the project.

Horford also received a player option for Year 4, which will allow him the opportunity for one more significant multi-year deal if he maintains his form.

Grade for Al Horford: A

The Hawks have gone 0-for-8 in playoff games against the Cavaliers over the past two offseasons, which made continuing the relationship with Horford uncomfortable, as does the fact Paul Millsap and Kyle Korver are 31 and 35 respectively. Atlanta has been between a retool and continuing their successful regular season status quo this season. While it is unclear if the Hawks will be better or worse without Horford and Jeff Teague, they will certainly be different.

Atlanta seemed to preemptively move on from Horford in signing Dwight Howard on the first day of free agency but they continued to see if a deal could be reached up until the very end, even reportedly shopping Paul Millsap in trade scenarios. It was unclear how earnest their attempts at re-signing Horford actually were or they were playing a PR game.

The Raptors had a similar decision to make with DeMar DeRozan and they chose to keep it rolling even if the deal will hardly seem like a team-friendly one by Year 4 or Year 5. It is admirable, especially for franchises with limited sustained success, to choose loyalty and inertia instead of the commodification of players.

Grade for Hawks: D



bob
MY NOTE:  I think this says something about Horford's defense.

"Horford does well defending just about any opposing big regardless if they’re athletic power forwards that also play on the perimeter, or if they are strong centers who score in the post. Horford isn’t a natural rim protector but he maximizes whatever length and athleticism he has by playing smart defense. While the offense dropped, the Hawks ranked second in the NBA in defense and were 1.8 points per 100 possessions better with him on the floor. Horford doesn’t solve Boston’s rim protection issues but they’ve already proven to be a great defensive team without it and he makes them substantially better.

Horford allowed just 0.80 points per possession in the post against the most attempts in the NBA."


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As I see it, we have currently at hand, three low cost possibilities at finding a player that can play defense against (and spend fouls on) the bigger centers, when needed.  

Yabusele, Zizic and Iverson.  

Yabusele isn't all that tall, but he is built like a brick $h!t house.  Zizic and Iverson are taller and are likewise built like rocks.  Perhaps any one of these three players can play the Perk role; not so much offense, but great defense, especially on the bigger centers.

gyso

Only Celtic fans can have 22.7 different views on a given topic and every one of them have legitimacy. For those, like me, who see this as a significant signing, even with differing reasonings. we are happy as can be. For those worried that Horford may not be the rim protector we need, who want to make him into a PF I offer Ante Zizic as the center for that lineup. For multiple lineups is what this team is going to have. We're going to have a solid 10 deep bench even if Guerschon stays in France. (yippie summer league tomorrow!) I'm kind of wondering how Danny is feeling right about now? If he is thinking that perhaps this year, he has gotten each draft pick that he really wanted, and now he is getting the FA he wanted. Every choice so far has been an upgrade of talent individually and more importantly TEAM wise. Every choice so far has reflected Danny and Brad's desire to win now but to do it the right way. One would almost think that Danny had KD's personal wish list and has just about completed it.