ESPN Cuts Six Celtics, Adds Three To List Of NBA’s 50 Greatest Players

https://nesn.com/2017/10/espn-cuts-six-celtics-adds-three-to-list-of-nbas-50-greatest-players/



ESPN Cuts Six Celtics, Adds Three To List Of NBA’s 50 Greatest Players 






by Dakota Randall on Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 2:15PM








When the NBA in 1997 revealed its list of the 50 greatest players, there were a whopping 11 Boston Celtics who made the cut. 




But ESPN’s The Undefeated on Friday published its updated — or “remix” version — of that list, and Green Teamers might be upset with the final product. 




Here are the Celtics who appeared on the original list:
— Larry Bird 
— Nate Archibald 
— Bob Cousy
— Dave Cowens 
— John Havlicek 
— Sam Jones 
— Bill Sharman 
— Kevin McHale 
— Robert Parish 
— Bill Russell 
— Bill Walton 




Of course, not all these players played their entire careers as Celtics, but they’re generally remembered most for their years in Boston. Now, some of these legends survived The Undefeated’s update, but others weren’t so lucky. 




Here are the Celtics who made the new list, including three noteworthy additions: 
— Larry Bird 
— Bob Cousy 
— John Havlicek 
— Kevin McHale 
— Bill Russell 
— Ray Allen 
— Kevin Garnett 
— Paul Pierce 




Again, Allen, Garnett and Pierce weren’t Celtics lifers, but they still won their first NBA championships in Beantown. And Pierce, in particular, is making sure he’s remembered as a Celtic, first and foremost. 




Listen, we understand that Celtics fans might be ticked off by this new list, but there had to be sacrifices to make room for the likes of Pierce, Allen and Garnett, not to mention players such as LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Kobe Bryant and Tim Duncan. 




And who knows, maybe when another list is compiled 20 years down the road, a few more Celtics will be on it, such as Kyrie Irving or Gordon Hayward.



bob
MY NOTE:  As far as I am concerned this is just more reason to avoid the whole inter-era comparison thing.  Ray Allen is greater than Bill Walton?  Ray Allen was an amazing scorer, the greatest 3pt shooter in the history of the game but Walton was one of the most perfect all-round centers to ever play the game.  He won 2 championships, just like Allen, but he was the Finals MVP in his first championship as well as the NBA Most Valuable Player in 1978 and Ray Allen is replacing him?  No offense to Ray, I'm not one of his big Celtic haters, but there's no way he's greater than Big Bill.  And don't get Cowens started on Dave Cowens falling off this list.

Hannibal was a great general who almost defeated the greatest military power the world had ever seen by his era and for many years to come, but would he have been able to compete against George S Patton?  Perspective is everything and we should let each era stand on their own and compete against their own.


.

No excuse for Sam Jones to be missing from the list.

Hannibal would kick Patton's ass then eat his liver with fava beans. Wait! What?

If your going to use the term greatest to describe these players - in my opinion you can make a more credible judgement if the selections are based on the generation in which the player played most of his games. The incredible increase in the talent level of athletes, over the generations, does not allow much room for the
"way back old timers" to be compared favorably with the more modern athlete.

swish

Ray Allen over Dave Cowens....???? who are the voters? PATHETIC

Archibald certainly belongs. Probably Parish.

I HATE LISTS!!!!! Boy if Sam was around today, what do you suppose his answer to this 'LIST" would be?? Give me a break

These lists are drawn up by people who have no idea of the past players, so what the hell, just take them off.

One more reason to hate ESPN

Should have made a completely new list for modern era players. I'm not down with them tarnishing established legacies.


KJ

KyleCleric wrote:No excuse for Sam Jones to be missing from the list.

Totally agree!

bobheckler wrote:https://nesn.com/2017/10/espn-cuts-six-celtics-adds-three-to-list-of-nbas-50-greatest-players/



ESPN Cuts Six Celtics, Adds Three To List Of NBA’s 50 Greatest Players 






by Dakota Randall on Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 2:15PM








When the NBA in 1997 revealed its list of the 50 greatest players, there were a whopping 11 Boston Celtics who made the cut. 




But ESPN’s The Undefeated on Friday published its updated — or “remix” version — of that list, and Green Teamers might be upset with the final product. 




Here are the Celtics who appeared on the original list:
— Larry Bird 
— Nate Archibald 
— Bob Cousy
— Dave Cowens 
— John Havlicek 
— Sam Jones 
— Bill Sharman 
— Kevin McHale 
— Robert Parish 
— Bill Russell 
— Bill Walton 




Of course, not all these players played their entire careers as Celtics, but they’re generally remembered most for their years in Boston. Now, some of these legends survived The Undefeated’s update, but others weren’t so lucky. 




Here are the Celtics who made the new list, including three noteworthy additions: 
— Larry Bird 
— Bob Cousy 
— John Havlicek 
— Kevin McHale 
— Bill Russell 
— Ray Allen 
— Kevin Garnett 
— Paul Pierce 




Again, Allen, Garnett and Pierce weren’t Celtics lifers, but they still won their first NBA championships in Beantown. And Pierce, in particular, is making sure he’s remembered as a Celtic, first and foremost. 




Listen, we understand that Celtics fans might be ticked off by this new list, but there had to be sacrifices to make room for the likes of Pierce, Allen and Garnett, not to mention players such as LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Kobe Bryant and Tim Duncan. 




And who knows, maybe when another list is compiled 20 years down the road, a few more Celtics will be on it, such as Kyrie Irving or Gordon Hayward.



bob
MY NOTE:  As far as I am concerned this is just more reason to avoid the whole inter-era comparison thing.  Ray Allen is greater than Bill Walton?  Ray Allen was an amazing scorer, the greatest 3pt shooter in the history of the game but Walton was one of the most perfect all-round centers to ever play the game.  He won 2 championships, just like Allen, but he was the Finals MVP in his first championship as well as the NBA Most Valuable Player in 1978 and Ray Allen is replacing him?  No offense to Ray, I'm not one of his big Celtic haters, but there's no way he's greater than Big Bill.  And don't get Cowens started on Dave Cowens falling off this list.

Hannibal was a great general who almost defeated the greatest military power the world had ever seen by his era and for many years to come, but would he have been able to compete against George S Patton?  Perspective is everything and we should let each era stand on their own and compete against their own.


.

Disagree with you about Walton. If you just compare him to Ray, Ray contributed more to that 08 championship team then Walton to 86 team. Also Sam and Cowens should be ahead of old Dr. Scholls (as Kareem called him)

Ktronic1 wrote:

bobheckler wrote:https://nesn.com/2017/10/espn-cuts-six-celtics-adds-three-to-list-of-nbas-50-greatest-players/



ESPN Cuts Six Celtics, Adds Three To List Of NBA’s 50 Greatest Players 






by Dakota Randall on Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 2:15PM








When the NBA in 1997 revealed its list of the 50 greatest players, there were a whopping 11 Boston Celtics who made the cut. 




But ESPN’s The Undefeated on Friday published its updated — or “remix” version — of that list, and Green Teamers might be upset with the final product. 




Here are the Celtics who appeared on the original list:
— Larry Bird 
— Nate Archibald 
— Bob Cousy
— Dave Cowens 
— John Havlicek 
— Sam Jones 
— Bill Sharman 
— Kevin McHale 
— Robert Parish 
— Bill Russell 
— Bill Walton 




Of course, not all these players played their entire careers as Celtics, but they’re generally remembered most for their years in Boston. Now, some of these legends survived The Undefeated’s update, but others weren’t so lucky. 




Here are the Celtics who made the new list, including three noteworthy additions: 
— Larry Bird 
— Bob Cousy 
— John Havlicek 
— Kevin McHale 
— Bill Russell 
— Ray Allen 
— Kevin Garnett 
— Paul Pierce 




Again, Allen, Garnett and Pierce weren’t Celtics lifers, but they still won their first NBA championships in Beantown. And Pierce, in particular, is making sure he’s remembered as a Celtic, first and foremost. 




Listen, we understand that Celtics fans might be ticked off by this new list, but there had to be sacrifices to make room for the likes of Pierce, Allen and Garnett, not to mention players such as LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Kobe Bryant and Tim Duncan. 




And who knows, maybe when another list is compiled 20 years down the road, a few more Celtics will be on it, such as Kyrie Irving or Gordon Hayward.



bob
MY NOTE:  As far as I am concerned this is just more reason to avoid the whole inter-era comparison thing.  Ray Allen is greater than Bill Walton?  Ray Allen was an amazing scorer, the greatest 3pt shooter in the history of the game but Walton was one of the most perfect all-round centers to ever play the game.  He won 2 championships, just like Allen, but he was the Finals MVP in his first championship as well as the NBA Most Valuable Player in 1978 and Ray Allen is replacing him?  No offense to Ray, I'm not one of his big Celtic haters, but there's no way he's greater than Big Bill.  And don't get Cowens started on Dave Cowens falling off this list.

Hannibal was a great general who almost defeated the greatest military power the world had ever seen by his era and for many years to come, but would he have been able to compete against George S Patton?  Perspective is everything and we should let each era stand on their own and compete against their own.


.

Disagree with you about Walton. If you just compare him to Ray, Ray contributed more to that 08 championship team then Walton to 86 team. Also Sam and Cowens should be ahead of old Dr. Scholls  (as Kareem called him)

ktronic,

Yes, Ray Allen did contribute more, when he was a starter, to the 08 Championship team than Walton did to the 86 team where he came off the bench.  Was Ray Allen a bigger contributor in Miami, when he was coming off the bench, than Walton in 86?  Was Ray Allen a bigger contributor, as a starter in 08, than Finals MVP Bill Walton was in 77?


bob


.

Reggie Miller and Ray Allen over Clyde Drexler and Sam Jones? Those guys couldn't even hold the Glide and Sam's jockstrap.

Walton's career was culminated with his win here in Boston, but remember, he DID win a championship in Portland. He was one of the greatest passing centers I ever saw. He is, was, and always will be one of the greatest players to play in the NBA. I was a Ray lover, and loved every minute he was here. Sure, he hit alot of three pointers, but he is NOT above Walton, period.
These comparisons are just not fair. Half of the people doing these lists have no idea of the impact of a guy like Sam Jones, the greatest bank shot shooter I ever saw. Sam deserves to be on this list also.

This is why I hate all these comparisons. Ignorance is bliss.
They all think they know more than anyone else. I said I was done with this stuff, it just irritates the heck out of me.

I hate the concept of comparing eras in this kind of competitive context. Maybe they could do the top 50 from the 1990s onward?


KJ

Debates over which era, player, or team is better is a time honored part of being a sports fan. It's one of the primary way sports stays in the minds of the people and young fans learn about the legacy of the sport. I would suggest the start of the Bird/Magic years, 1980. But I prefer to challenge anyone to tell me about a "modern era" center as good as Wilt. Or a better hitter than Ted or a better hockey player than Bobby. That's a funner conversation. See what I mean?

Player and team bias probably has a lot fans around the world disapproving the list.

swish

I totally disagree with you there. I think it is lack of knowledge of the era's gone by. There are young people out there who have no idea who Sam Jones was or what he accomplished in his career.
The 60's and 70's are a forgotten time in basketball. Who has even mentioned Bob Petitt? Oscar? Jerry Lucas??? so, I agree, do it by era's maybe. As time goes on, even Pippen will be a forgotten man with the young players coming along.
Being a Celtic fan does not put blinders on my eyes, there were some great players back then. I didn't even mention Cowens, who played the game harder than him??????

mulcogiseng wrote:Debates over which era, player, or team is better is a time honored part of being a sports fan.  It's one of the primary way sports stays in the minds of the people and young fans learn about the legacy of the sport.  I would suggest the start of the Bird/Magic years, 1980. But I prefer to challenge anyone to tell me about a "modern era" center as good as Wilt. Or a better hitter than Ted or a better hockey player than Bobby. That's a funner conversation. See what I mean?

 mulcogiseng

   I like your idea of having the "greatest ever" polls broken down by a sort of old timers vs the moderns.  I find it hard for me to support the old timers in these greatest of all time lists  - especially those that spent most of their careers in the 50's or 60's -  As to comparing Wilt to the modern BIGS.  It's a purely speculative question to which I can't (don't want to) give a specific answer.(Who is expert enough to know for sure). But in a much broader sense I will lay out some facts to show why the WILT of the 50's-60's would be hard pressed to run up the numbers now, that he did back in the dark ages of nba basketball.  Since for most Celtic old timers  Celtic history seems to start during the season of 1956-57, I'll post some numbers even though Wilt didn't arrive on the scene until 1959-60
                Wilts BIG MAN COMPETITION - back in his day - and vs now in the 90's and 2016-17
    League averages for center and center forwards with at least 1100 minutes played for the year.
    1956-57,,, Average weight = 216.9 lbs,,,,,shooting stats - 0 of 16 players shot .500 or better - 0 of 16 players shot.450 or better
    1959-60,,, average weight = 222.0 lbs,,,,,Shooting stats - 0 of 14 players shot .500 or better - 0 of 14 players shot .450 or better
    1964-65,,, average weight = 224.7 lbs,,,,,shooting stats - 2 of 15 players shot .500 or better - 6 of 15 players shot .450 or better
    1968-69,,, average weight = 230.5 lbs,,,,,shooting stats - 3 of 22 players shot .500 or better - 11 of 22 players shot .450 or better
    1995-96,,, average weight = 251.5 lbs,,,,shooting stats - 20 of 31 players shot .500 or better - 27 of 31 players shot .450 or better
    2016-17,,, average weight = 255.8 lbs,,,,shooting stats - 33 of 38 players shot .500 or better - 37 of 38 players shot .450 or better

  2 other major factors for which their are 0 stats, are the huge differences in ball handling skills - and the total lack of hard fouls. Nothing but ticky tack fouls. Many more foul shots taken in the early years of the nba. Wilt was a beast back in his day - but I suspect, would be much, much closer to a average big nowadays.  Much bigger now and with shooting skills that would have astounded their early predecessors.

  swish
 
-

Who cares.

Every person is likely to have a different list and a different frame of reference.  The HOF in Springfield is the place where legends are enshrined, and a bunch of dopes at ESPN cannot tarnish any of the names in that sacred building.

I had a conversation the other day with a 28 year old who told me that Lebron was better than Michael Jordan.  There was no common ground that could be had there, so we just moved on.

Mrkleen,

That's funny. I'm 28 myself and I still wouldn't put LeBron on Jordans level.


KJ

mrkleen09 wrote:Who cares.

Every person is likely to have a different list and a different frame of reference.  The HOF in Springfield is the place where legends are enshrined, and a bunch of dopes at ESPN cannot tarnish any of the names in that sacred building.

I had a conversation the other day with a 28 year old who told me that Lebron was better than Michael Jordan.  There was no common ground that could be had there, so we just moved on.

                I`m considerably older than that, and I think that Jordan was a great player but way over- hyped. I`d take Magic Johnson over him. It`s all in the eye of the beholder.

I think bringing up Magic in a conversation about Lebron is appropriate, as they are both great players, great facilitators and definitely transcended their positions - the first PG that tall too control a game, and Lebron being one of the best "point forwards" of all time.

But I dont see any player who was 6-0 in NBA Finals and 3 in a row, a 14 time All Star, 9 time all NBA defensive team, all time leader in play off PPG, all time leader in playoff scoring average, won 10 scoring titles - 7 of those were in a row, 3rd in NBA history in steals is overrated.  

I think Wilt and Bill Russell hold an edge in greatest of all time, but from where I am sitting - no way Lebron or Magic are better than MJ.

I`m trying to think where I said Lebron , with his 4 mvps, three times finals mvps, 11 first team all nba honors to Jordan`s 10, first player since Russell to appear in 6 straight finals, 5 time all defensive first team, 1 time defensive player of the year honors and superior rebounding and assist numbers, was better than Jordan. Guess what, I didn`t .God forbid on this forum , where Lebron is the devil incarnate, despite being far more socially active and altruistic than the self - absorbed Jordan. But I digress. I said  think Magic was better. Throw any numbers out there you want . Magic played against far better competition, the mid-80s Celtics for instance. Come back to me when Jordan switches from point guard, or in his case shooting guard, to center in the  middle of the finals with Parish and McHale patrolling the paint, and totally dominates.

Magic didn't have the defensive responsibilities or defensive abilities of either Michael or Lebron. We know how great Jordan could defend, the Bulls were the first great defensive team without a dominant center. Has there ever been anyone as great as Lebron on the chase down block? and he can cover any position, as could Jordan. Ofensively later in his career when he could hit the perimeter shot, Magic can compare with anyone, Lebron, MJ, Bird, but his lack of impact on the defensive end has me ranking him behind MJ and Bron.