Brown or Tatum?

Ok, here's a hypothetical for you.  Danny gets/makes an offer for, let's say, Anthony Davis but the deal requires at least one, if not both, of the J's being included (I know there are people who don't think Kawhi isn't worth either one, so I'm baiting the hook with an irresistible worm).  There would have to be more included just to make the numbers work (probably the Sacto pick) but let's focus on the question of which J you'd be willing to part with for Anthony Davis.  Jaylen Brown or Jayson Tatum?

Jaylen is blossoming before our very eyes.  He is showing he is a big game player.  His offense, which was the weakest part of his game, is now quite robust.  Jimmy Butler 2.0?  Easily, in a another year or two at most to polish his game some more, easily.

Jayson has had a fantastic rookie campaign.  He came in as a great mid-range shooter, but not a good 3pt shooter, and an adequate defender.  He has turned out to be a 43.4% NBA 3pt shooter and a defender that Brad has confidence in (over the more veteran Marcus Morris).  Paul Pierce 2.0?  Also, easily.  His rookie year was better than Pierce's in fg%, 3pt fg% and ft%.  Pierce played more mpg, took more fgas, rebounded better and assisted more, but he was also on a bad team.  Tatum is competing with touches and rebounds with good players on a good team.  He wasn't just given the keys to the family car and told he could do whatever he wanted (it wasn't until Doc got here that he was told otherwise).

Anthony Davis is, arguably, the #1 big in the game.  Embiid is impressive but night-in-night-out Davis can, and often is, a monster.  What he has done since Boogie went down has been nothing short of amazing.


What would you do?  Which would you be willing to part with for Davis?  Brown?  Tatum?  Brown AND Tatum?  Or nobody, noway, nohow?

I realize I have not proposed a complete package, so there is some lack of clarity here, but the key is that at least one of those players would be gone.  If you want to fill out the deal with some players/assets of your own choosing, please do.

And if you don't think Trader Danny wouldn't pull the trigger on a deal for Anthony Davis, you're nuts.  Danny knows we're loaded with wings, especially when Hayward comes back next year, what we need is a young, dominating big and nobody fits that bill like Anthony Davis. Furthermore, with a starting 5 of Horford, Davis, Hayward, Kyrie and even one of the J's we are in a position to win #18 now. Lordy, that starting 5 is triggering a drool reflex in me!


bob


.

Hi,
I voted "neither".
IMO, Danny bet on 3-headed monster (GH-JB-JT); so far, all indications are that he's going to cash out huge. So, I'm putting my chips there, too.
If we talk realistically, in order to get AD Danny has to part with either AH, GH or KI because all other salaries don't work, unless of course there's 3rd or 4th teams included which is unlikely. Therefore, I'd rather ask which of the above 3 you trade.
Sure, AD would be a great addition. But I believe that next year, if GH and KI come back 100%, the #18 is well within our reach.

AK

Bob,

I voted Brown.

I tried to answer the poll along the lines you laid out; a deal for a major addition.

This is a topic that keeps coming up for several reasons, and I've waded into the pool before. To be sure, I don't want to see any among Brown, Tatum, Smart or Rozier depart. But, to my way of thinking, it makes too much sense, and is too big a likelihood to happen to shy away from the topic. With a very aggressive President/GM managing a roster this close to championship contention, how could he not start some serious dealing?

Start off with the trio of Hayward, Brown and Tatum. You can find ways to insert two or even three into the lineup together, but they are all SF/wings at the bottom line. Anyone think one of them is going to be willing to accept less than starters minutes next season? I'd argue it makes no sense to start all three if it means Horford is the center and one of the trio in question is power forward. That's not getting us the rebounding and defense we need in the front-court to contend. All three are players almost any team would be happy to have. Hayward is probably least likely to depart, although, personally, I'd deal him in a NY minute for the value he'd bring back and in order to keep Tatum and Brown happy. That leaves Tatum and Brown. To me, Tatum already has a few more developed skills than Brown, and appears to be developing further at a decent pace. So Brown goes.

You're not asking about others, so I'll just say I expect a valuable guard to go too. I'd be willing to put money (or beer, depending on one's favored currency) on a big deal or two this summer. Not because I think they should, but because I think it makes too much sense that they will. I think it starts with Brown as too obvious a choice to ignore. Other GMs surely know it too. Think that was Danny's phone ringing just now?

Regards

BTW Bob... I love to see topics that are bound to stir impassioned debate. Nice that we can always count on you to come up with some thought provoking topics that fit that mold.

You should retitle this post "Sophie's Choice" or maybe "Danny's Choice". First, I would try and sell NO on some combo of Al, Terry, and picks. Assuming they insist on Brown or Tatum...Ughhh... I don't know?? The argument to trade Tatum; his greatest strength is scoring, and with AD, KI, GH (and now Terry), scoring may not be the greatest need for that team. Jaylen is showing he can be a scorer, is the better defender, could be more versatile, and might be a better fit for that team. The argument to trade Brown: Tatum is turning out to be a better defender than anyone thought, and his 3-point shooting, which is essential to Brad's system, has also been much better than anyone thought. Tatum could end up being a super-duper star, and he has one more year on rookie contract. I need to think about it more....

I voted both, since no decision needs to be made anytime soon.

I love them both, but I think Tatum will be the better long term, as his game is predicated on positioning, footwork and his length....all things that can sustain an injury or two.

Brown is a freak athlete, but god forbid - if he blew out his knee and lost a step, he would be in trouble as a player.

mrkleen09 wrote:I voted both, since no decision needs to be made anytime soon.

I love them both, but I think Tatum will be the better long term, as his game is predicated on positioning, footwork and his length....all things that can sustain an injury or two.  

Brown is a freak athlete, but god forbid - if he blew out his knee and lost a step, he would be in trouble as a player.

Blow out a knee....

That could happen to anyone, anytime

It sure has happened to us enough over the years


beat

beat wrote:
Blow out a knee....

That could happen to anyone, anytime

It sure has happened to us enough over the years


beat

Yeah, didnt mean to curse the guy - just saying. Usually, super athletic players like Jaylen are like sports cars that need to be in perfect working order to perform.

Other players, like say Paul Pierce or Kyrie - seem to be able to work with an injury and still deliver.

mrkleen09 wrote:

beat wrote:
Blow out a knee....

That could happen to anyone, anytime

It sure has happened to us enough over the years


beat

Yeah, didnt mean to curse the guy - just saying.  Usually, super athletic players like Jaylen are like sports cars that need to be in perfect working order to perform.  

Other players, like say Paul Pierce or Kyrie - seem to be able to work with an injury and still deliver.

Kleen look at Lebron speaking of freak athletes, he’s still an incredible force at 33. There is so much outstanding in depth sports physical therapy type stuff that keeps on getting better and better. I believe our training staff under Dannys watch is on par with all the best in training, therapy and nutrition that could be out there. I voted neither because the trade will not happen and both these kids are gonna be perennial all stars for years, Jaylen is already better than Jimmy Butler.

The Celts are blessed with 3 young players with outstanding potential for immediate success in the NBA -  who will be competing for playing time at just 2 positions . Now that's a luxury that opens the door to future trades to shore up a perceived weakness at the center position.  But there are problems here. Which team out there has the strength at center to be able to trade off a player of matching potential to any of the 3 Celtics - In terms of player talent probably not too difficult , but here's the hard part - It's the matching of salaries that is a problem. Which team do you think has an expendable big man with a contract in the 5 million dollar range, which is needed to match Brown or Tatum The only team that I can come up with is Indiana - Turner and Sabonis

   swish

Any trade for AD would require one of our big salary guys in return. Hayward, Horford or Irving.

One of them, plus one of the J's, plus a pick? No thanks.

gyso

gyso wrote:Any trade for AD would require one of our big salary guys in return.  Hayward, Horford or Irving.  

One of them, plus one of the J's, plus a pick?  No thanks.

gyso

+1

I think Tatum will be the better of the two in the end.

but based on the players under contract next season, I would move Tatum and keep brown to get Davis.

obviously, Browns ability to swing to the back court and Hayward under contract are my two reasons.

of course in reality , even IF NO was going to trade Davis it would require one of our big money players being moved for him....in that case I would send Hayward for Davis and keep both of our young guns instead.

I voted neither. I find Brown the most complete player right now but they are both so new. I think he will have the better overall career. But they are both going to be stars in the NBA. So I don't want to give up either one. An argument can be made to give one up in such a trade but certainly not both. AD is good but not that good. Everyone else is so good on this team that Big by committee as we have with Baynes and Monroe is probably good enuf.

kdp59 wrote:I think Tatum will be the better of the two in the end.

but based on the players under contract next season, I would move Tatum and keep brown to get Davis.

obviously, Browns ability to swing to the back court and Hayward under contract are my two reasons.

of course in reality , even IF NO was going to trade Davis it would require one of our big money players being moved for him....in that case I would send Hayward for Davis and keep both of our young guns instead.

kdp59

From a New Orleans viewpoint - is even up good enough for Davis ?

swish

I absolutely would not trade either JB or Tatum for anyone in the world.

But having said that, as an aside - with the way New Orleans is dismantling Portland, without Boogie, why are people so quick to assume that Davis is even available?

mrkleen09 wrote:I absolutely would not trade either JB or Tatum for anyone in the world.  

But having said that, as an aside - with the way New Orleans is dismantling Portland, without Boogie, why are people so quick to assume that Davis is even available?

mrkleen,

Not even if the contracts could be matched ? Not even for Davis who this past year excelled in 3 statistical categories ? Ranking per game --- Points 2, Rebounds, 5, Blocks, 1, plus all nba and All nba defensive teams.

swish

swish wrote:

kdp59 wrote:I think Tatum will be the better of the two in the end.

but based on the players under contract next season, I would move Tatum and keep brown to get Davis.

obviously, Browns ability to swing to the back court and Hayward under contract are my two reasons.

of course in reality , even IF NO was going to trade Davis it would require one of our big money players being moved for him....in that case I would send Hayward for Davis and keep both of our young guns instead.

   kdp59

From a New Orleans viewpoint - is even up good enough for Davis ?

      swish

No, I do not believe a Hayward for Davis deal would ever happen. But I also see no way that Davis will be traded right now. IF they make the mistake of trading Davis, it would only happen the year his contract will expire and only IF he tells them he will NOT resign with them.

he is just playing too well (especially early in these playoffs) for them to make that mistake.

but IF NO were that stupid to make him available, I personally would move Hayward and Multiple first round picks for him. I do think he is that good. He may be the most under-rated player in the NBA right now, IMO.

swish wrote:

mrkleen,

Not even if the contracts could be matched ?  Not even for Davis who this past year excelled in 3 statistical categories ?  Ranking per game --- Points 2, Rebounds, 5, Blocks, 1, plus all nba and All nba defensive teams.

  swish

No.

In modern sports, contracts are just as valuable as players. JB and Tatum have VERY favorable contracts for the foreseeable future. If you could replace Horford in a year or two, with a player that is 80% as good as Davis - for less money AND KEEP Jaylen and Tatum, that is far favorable to blowing up the future for one player.

mrkleen09 wrote:

swish wrote:

mrkleen,

Not even if the contracts could be matched ?  Not even for Davis who this past year excelled in 3 statistical categories ?  Ranking per game --- Points 2, Rebounds, 5, Blocks, 1, plus all nba and All nba defensive teams.

  swish

No.  

In modern sports, contracts are just as valuable as players.  JB and Tatum have VERY favorable contracts for the foreseeable future.  If you could replace Horford in a year or two, with a player that is 80% as good as Davis - for less money AND KEEP Jaylen and Tatum, that is far favorable to blowing up the future for one player.

but with our cap situation replacing Horford (once his contract is done) with a player even of Horford's ability's right now, will be very difficult at least in FA'y.

Maybe one of those draft picks will bring in that player, which is why I would make an effort to move up in this years draft for Bamba or Jackson (top 5 pick). I'd be willing to move Rozier and a couple of Danny's draft stash picks to get it done even.

I have no idea what the cap will be next summer or the summer after. All conjecture at this point.

mrkleen09 wrote:I have no idea what the cap will be next summer or the summer after.  All conjecture at this point.

The NBA cap is estimated at $101 million and the luxury tax line will increase to $121 million next season.

I read 108 for 2019 and 120 for 2020, which is my point. It is a moving target, so if you have the chance to build using affordable homegrown talent - you do.

So, we have to lose a up and coming superstar to trade for ???
Anthony Davis???Kwahi Leonard???? I voted the wrong way, I would trade neither. I just wouldn't do it. I take great pleasure in watching this team grow up together, get better together, and become superstars together. Why do we even have to think about losing one or both of them? Just not a decision that I would make. Who knows what lies ahead as far as a
big man is concerned. Maybe a sleeper is out there in the draft that no is recognizing.

On top of all this, Anthony Davis is going to have to demand a trade for New Orleans to trade him. From the way they are playing, New Orleans is not giving him away to anyone, they are building a good team down there all around him. Kwahi, ? I have already said I would leave him in San Antonio. Pop would want the sun, the moon and the stars for him and he would like nothing better than to pick Danny's pocket and take the guys that are maturing here into stars.

Go with what you have, a center will come along and we will not have to blow things up to get him

RosalieTCeltics wrote:So, we have to lose a up and coming superstar to trade for ???
Anthony Davis???Kwahi Leonard????  I voted the wrong way, I would trade neither. I just wouldn't do it.  I take great pleasure in watching this team grow up together, get better together, and become superstars together.  Why do we even have to think about losing one or both of them?  Just not a decision that I would make.  Who knows what lies ahead as far as a
big man is concerned.  Maybe a sleeper is out there in the draft that no is recognizing.

On top of all this, Anthony Davis is going to have to demand a trade for New Orleans to trade him. From the way they are playing, New Orleans is not giving him away to anyone, they are building a good team down there all around him.  Kwahi, ?  I have already said I would leave him in San Antonio. Pop would want the sun, the moon and the stars for him and he would like nothing better than to pick Danny's pocket and take the guys that are maturing here into stars.

Go with what you have, a center will come along and we will not have to blow things up to get him

+1

I believe that the question, as written, about the possibility of trading either Brown or Tatum or both for Davis is not a logical option ( salary gap). What is possible how ever, is putting together a trade involving Tatum. Any interest ? Far-fetched for sure - but doable.

swish