Tomase: Looking to cast blame for disappointing Celtics? Start with Brad Stevens

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Post by 112288 Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:46 pm

Tomase: Looking to cast blame for disappointing Celtics? Start with Brad Stevens

WEEI John Tomase

With the regular season winding down the Celtics are still looking for answers, which was never more evident in their loss Saturday night in Charlotte.

There's a fine line between unflappable and passive, and Brad Stevens is about to trip over it.

What was supposed to be the signature season of Danny Ainge's latest rebuild is once again slipping away, and Stevens seems not only powerless to stop it, but strangely resistant to try.

The issues that have plagued the Celtics all season -- poor shot selection and hero ball in crunch time, the inability to protect big leads or overcome manageable deficits, disjointed defense, a propensity to quit -- continue to vex with the playoffs just a couple of weeks away, and for the first time, Stevens doesn't have the answers.

That much-ballyhooed flight to Golden State now stands as a minor peak in yet another miserable valley. Including those wins out west that supposedly saved the season, the Celtics have lost 10 of 16, including four straight.

They trail the Pacers by two games for the fourth spot in the East with eight games to play and face the unpalatable prospect of needing to win three straight series on the road to reach the NBA Finals. The last team to do that was the 1999 Knicks, who finished eighth in that lockout-shortened campaign before losing to Tim Duncan's Spurs.

Stevens entered the season with the reputation as not only a brilliant tactician, but a shrewd motivator who consistently willed mediocre rosters beyond their collective talent. He did it twice at Butler by reaching national title games, and he did it four times with the Celtics, including consecutive conference finals berths.

But Stevens looks as lost as everyone else this season. The Celtics have teetered on the verge of catastrophe throughout this disappointing campaign, weathering Kyrie Irving's moodiness, Marcus Morris's contention that nothing is fun, resentment on the part of youngsters who believe they deserve more minutes, and Gordon Hayward's painfully slow rehab from a devastating leg injury.

Along the way, they've shown a shocking inability -- especially for a Stevens-led team -- to improve. They still watch Irving too much. They still play lackadaisically with leads and lack the heart to rally. They still surrender a ton of points. They still launch threes like a volley of arrows on Game of Thrones.

And worst off, they look *this* close to quitting on the season completely.

At what point do we stop ripping the players and start wondering how the coach let it happen?

Stevens has been off his game from the start. He opened the year with Hayward in the starting lineup, even though the rehabbing forward clearly wasn't ready. That experiment lasted 15 games before Marcuses Morris and Smart replaced Hayward and Brown.

Morris hasn't played well since December, but his struggles appear to have escaped Stevens' notice, because he keeps getting 30 minutes a night. Shooting .441 on 3-pointers on Dec. 31, Morris is at .324 since, including 1-for-7 in Sunday's loss to the Spurs. He no longer has any business taking Brown's minutes, especially as he reverts to his ball-pounding isolationist ways, but playing time is determined by the coach, not the player.

Meanwhile, second-year forward Jayson Tatum has failed to make a leap by exhibiting the same frustrating offensive tendencies in March that hampered him in October. It would be nice, for instance, to alert Tatum to the fact that every time he passes up a three for one dribble and a pull-up 21-footer, that's bad offense. But as he repeats that mistake nightly you'd like to think Stevens might suggest, "Take the 3," or, "Take it to the rim."

Instead, Tatum remains stuck in between, just like the rest of the team. Irving, for instance, is clearly a handful, and maybe he simply wouldn't respond to any coach. But even if he's right that the Celtics consistently watch Kemba Walker light them up without trapping him like everyone else, there's no point in calling out the game plan. That's a loser move.

Perhaps Irving wouldn't feel so empowered to focus blame consistently on everyone else and only occasionally on himself if he lived in greater fear of his coach. He doesn't play like someone who respects his boss when he makes no effort on defense or becomes a one-man offense. The ball-hawking Kyrie who willingly took charges out west is the exception, unfortunately. Too often he lamely points fingers when his man beats him off the dribble or up the floor. Would it hurt Stevens' standing to remind even his best player that big minutes must be earned?

The same goes for Hayward, who occasionally delivers hang-dog effort. Even if it traces to frustration at his inability to reach his pre-injury form, too often Hayward fails to attack loose balls or his defensive rotations. It's an extension of his offensive passivity. Surely Stevens has noticed, but what has he done about it?

We could keep going. Smart still takes bad shots. Terry Rozier likes to play 1-on-5. The Celtics treat big leads as the perfect opportunity to launch 3's early in the shot clock, which is how they blew another easy W vs. the Hornets over the weekend.

A team built on defense hasn't played much of it since January, allowing at least 120 points eight times in its last 20 games. Can Aron Baynes really be that important?

All I know is the Celtics possess the talent to compete for a title, but they appear headed for a first-round flameout, so here's a simple question: is Brad Stevens going to do anything about it?

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Post by cowens/oldschool Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:52 pm

This mess started in game 7 vs Cavs, we would have given the country a way better series than the Cavs. In game 7 he did a terrible coaching job, hey Jaylen and Terry your long ball is off we’re still in it, drive, drive, run, fastbreak, get to the line....instead those guys kept chucking 3’s. Now we’re so far gone from that team. Hayward keeps taking baby steps, Tatum’s game is a mess, how did he turn into looking so much like Jeff Green? Kyrie throws everyone under the bus, his game doesn’t look so scintillating lately, he’s missing bunnies, getting his shot blocked, he looks unhappy and he’s lost his fight. If he thinks it’s better elsewhere, go there, he’ll wear out that welcome too. Most important thing now is getting Tatums game back. On our playoff run last year, we played hard, instinctive, shared the ball, got into the opponent defensively, played for each other, this latest stretch I see terrible fundamentals and too much iso/hero ball. Whenever Kyrie has been out, it seems the ball moves more, we share it, we take advantage of mismatches. Kyrie has been putrid end of games lately. Stevens lost this teams identity, last year we knew we had to play hard, we were fearless, confident, we could pull out a lot of games. This team has no direction, it seems when we get challenged and the game gets tough, we fall apart and execution is terrible. If we execute and play hard I can live with that, this team’s confidence is shot. Stevens is too soft, I don’t think Kyrie respects him, if he is the cancer in that lockeroom, get rid of him.

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Post by hawksnestbeach Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:19 am

IMO, Danny and Brad share responsibility for this year's team. If the Cs re-group and win rings, I'm ready to retract everything below.
Otherwise:
Danny didn't find a center other than the oft-hurt, earthbound Baynes, and a rookie Brad wouldn't play. Bringing Monroe back now is an admission of failure (may as well bring back Perk).
Brad favored Hayward with undeserved and precious PT early on and this killed team spirit. IMO, no player deserves to play based on his salary or what he did years before.
Of course, Danny grossly overpaid Hayward, which pressures Brad to play him.
Hayward was never a super star, and now post-injury, he is at best, good.
Kyrie is a bigger force in basketball than Brad. The player's won it all; the coach hasn't been to the finals. In that situation, it's hard for the coach to be the top dog, but right now, the tail's wagging the dog and that's never good. Other players see Brad defer to Kyrie, allowing hero ball, ignoring mood swings, and gradually the coach has lost them, too.
Larkin is better than Wanamaker - a small difference, but in small doses last year, Larkin came through repeatedly.
The team has told us what's wrong: when Kyrie's razzle-dazzling, they become spectators. When other teams' bigs drive to the hoop against our soft middle, we lose heart. When Brad has no solutions, and as injuries take a toll but the paychecks still keep coming, it becomes more of a job, less of a game. Hawk

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Post by cowens/oldschool Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:52 am

Two plays that one we do too much and one we don’t do enough.

How many times have we seen Baynes roll and he can’t finish the lob/alley op? I love the toughness that Baynes brings, but you can’t keep running that play when he doesn’t have the attributes to make that play!!!

Jaylen should be getting more lobs without the pnr, just post him, lob it to him ala Pierce, this was a bread and butter play of Pierce’s for decades. Jaylen is perfectly built for this play, but Brad doesn’t seem to use it. The few times we have tried it, it works, why doesn’t he see this....and use it? If Jaylen ever got unleashed, I have no doubt he could make this play consistently and even better than Pierce.

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Post by dboss Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:09 pm

We know what the players are doing and not doing and I bet we could go down the line and quickly identify the strengths and weaknesses of every player.

We have seen some beautiful basketball this year where the defense plays as a single unit, perfect rotations and hard nose defiance.  We have seen spectacular offense when the ball is moving and shots are being taken within an offensive flow that demands a pass first mentality.

We have also seen the exact opposite.

If there is a single thing I would point to, regarding coach Stevens,  is that he cannot get his team to do the things that win games consistently from possession to possession, quarter to quarter or from one game to the next.

This team lacks leadership from the coach because there is no accountability.  There is no consequences for not doing your job.  When a player is not doing what he is supposed to do regardless of who that player is you have to take him out of the game.  That is the only way to instill discipline.  Stevens allows his team to run amuck.  He is like a lot of young parents these days that let their kids run the show.  Raising hell in public!

Stevens treats these guys like men and professionals but he believes too strongly in self-correction.  How about sit your ass on the bench, the ball is sticking in your hands or sit your ass on the bench since your ball watching.  Now you can see the whole game.

The team just keeps doing the same FU s... and Stevens does not know how to stop them from doing it.

Stevens is a very intelligent coach but he is weak and his team knows he's weak.  I do not think they respect him enough.  He certainly does not instill fear in them because there are no consequences for their actions.
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Post by dboss Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:55 pm

I am not looking for a tyrant in him but the team needs to be disciplined.  If coach Stevens truly believes in his understanding of the game and if he truly believes that what he wants to see is a correct take on how to win then he simply has to discipline players when they consistently do not perform their jobs.  

Players have already acknowledged that when they play the right way they can beat anyone.  
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Post by jrleftfoot Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:02 pm

Danny Ainge put this team together and Stevens is supposed to be coaching it. Some guys have had up seasons and some down. Hayward, for instance, through no fault of his own , has been much less than we hoped.Rozier has demonstrated that one  great playoff run doesn't necessarily change who you are. Most of the guys have played to the back of their basketball cards. If they aren't up to the challenge , that's on Danny. The best teams in the East have improved their rosters this season. We haven't. To me, the worst part of this season has been the many large leads we have blown.The players, of course , are to blame, but Stevens passivity is ,I believe, a significant factor.
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Post by tardust Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:42 pm

I can sum it up in one word CHEMISTRY. We had it last year and don't this year. I can't believe I would ever say this because I have always been a Kyrie fan but I hope he walks. If he could stay and learn how to make the players around him better and not dominate the ball I would be for keeping him. Like I have said he has never been a winning player without Lebron. Championship team in Cleveland would lose when Lebron was out-nearly every game. Pre Lebron the Cavs were horrible with Kyrie scoring his 25 points a game. They gave the Warriors all they could handle with Deladova taking Kyries place. Pretty easy to see how we play without him this year and last. I don't know if he respects anyone on the team. Maybe Al.

Its not just Kyrie but most all the superstars think its all about them. Not very many point guards can carry a team without having other top tier players on the team. I would love to see Kyrie get 15 assists and 15 points a game. He also has to realize he is not the only player on the team the last 5 minutes of a close game. Tatum got a last second shot against one team and missed and Kyrie was all over Hayward for not giving the ball to him.

Brad has a lot of the blame as well. He did nothing in my opinion to make sure Brown and Tatum took another step forward. Tonight Brown plays 18 minutes. Not sure what the deal was. Tatum has a very good game tonight, of course if you read the game on thread you could never tell it.
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Post by jrleftfoot Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:31 am

OK. I am convinced. Get rid of Kyrie and this team will suddenly be transformed into an unbeatable dynasty. My bad. Can' t wait.
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Post by cowens/oldschool Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:39 am

Tonight at crunch time with not even the best lineup, we stepped up enough with everyone sharing the ball and moving/playing with purpose. Smart made some drives and plays, Tatum had a great pass, Al did his job. It was refreshing to see, everyone was capable of making plays for each other, whether it was a drive, pass, shot. With Kyrie, Stevens let’s him do too much as he’s the only one that can make the play, shot or pass and Kyries never been in this role before. On Cavs it was Lebron with the ball making all those decisions, Kyrie just had to play off him, go for an open catch and shoot, or drive off of a defense geared to stop Lebron first. Kyrie has great skills, but he’s not the incredible super closer he thinks he is, he can do some damage, but to his own team too. He’s obviously no where near as clutch as Bird or Pierce. I hope it’s not too late to have some plays in the clutch where the ball can go through Smart or Tatum or Al first, enabling Kyrie to get even a better look. This shit of Kyrie bringing the ball up and having all the say in a shot, drive or dish at the end game is getting old and coaches have already figured out how to defend it.

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Post by BingBang! Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:19 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:Tonight at crunch time with not even the best lineup, we stepped up enough with everyone sharing the ball and moving/playing with purpose. Smart made some drives and plays, Tatum had a great pass, Al did his job. It was refreshing to see, everyone was capable of making plays for each other, whether it was a drive, pass, shot. With Kyrie, Stevens let’s him do too much as he’s the only one that can make the play, shot or pass and Kyries never been in this role before. On Cavs it was Lebron with the ball making all those decisions, Kyrie just had to play off him, go for an open catch and shoot, or drive off of a defense geared to stop Lebron first. Kyrie has great skills, but he’s not the incredible super closer he thinks he is, he can do some damage, but to his own team too. He’s obviously no where near as clutch as Bird or Pierce. I hope it’s not too late to have some plays in the clutch where the ball can go through Smart or Tatum or Al first, enabling Kyrie to get even a better look. This shit of Kyrie bringing the ball up and having all the say in a shot, drive or dish at the end game is getting old and coaches have already figured out how to defend it.
I'm not sure I agree that he's not clutch, he did hit the shot that won an NBA championship. But, I agree absolutely he's doing too much with the ball in his hands, most of the game, not just the fourth quarter. The difference, IMO between he and The Truth (it's not fair to compare anyone to Larry so I won't) is size. Paul had an unusual combination of deftness (Kyrie) but body thickness (not quite Unseld-like but Paul was a strong man). Paul could get his shot and make his shot through all kinds of contact. Paul's built somewhat like Sir Charles and at the 2/3 played a pretty similar game IMO to Charles but at a different position with different emphasis but both featuring all around capabilities and strength. Kyrie is a slight point guard with amazing moves, ball English (which I would compare positively to Larry's), court sense, shooting ability, can rebound, run fast, etc. As I said in another post, short players physically can't see the floor in a setup offense as well as taller guys; it's impossible, so for that very reason he should give up the ball in the set offense and run off screens for open looks. Who knows how they'll look with him back in the lineup, but so far the results have certainly been mixed this year. I think they can be a much better team with Kyrie on the floor than not but he has to play to Brad's coaching, not his game, and right now it looks a little late in the season for that to change much.
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Post by BingBang! Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:21 am

BingBang! wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:Tonight at crunch time with not even the best lineup, we stepped up enough with everyone sharing the ball and moving/playing with purpose. Smart made some drives and plays, Tatum had a great pass, Al did his job. It was refreshing to see, everyone was capable of making plays for each other, whether it was a drive, pass, shot. With Kyrie, Stevens let’s him do too much as he’s the only one that can make the play, shot or pass and Kyries never been in this role before. On Cavs it was Lebron with the ball making all those decisions, Kyrie just had to play off him, go for an open catch and shoot, or drive off of a defense geared to stop Lebron first. Kyrie has great skills, but he’s not the incredible super closer he thinks he is, he can do some damage, but to his own team too. He’s obviously no where near as clutch as Bird or Pierce. I hope it’s not too late to have some plays in the clutch where the ball can go through Smart or Tatum or Al first, enabling Kyrie to get even a better look. This shit of Kyrie bringing the ball up and having all the say in a shot, drive or dish at the end game is getting old and coaches have already figured out how to defend it.
I'm not sure I agree that he's not clutch, he did hit the shot that won an NBA championship. But, I agree absolutely he's doing too much with the ball in his hands, most of the game, not just the fourth quarter. The difference, IMO between he and The Truth (it's not fair to compare anyone to Larry so I won't) is size. Paul had an unusual combination of deftness (Kyrie) but body thickness (not quite Unseld-like but Paul was a strong man). Paul could get his shot and make his shot through all kinds of contact. Paul's built somewhat like Sir Charles and at the 2/3 played a pretty similar game IMO to Charles but at a different position with different emphasis but both featuring all around capabilities and strength. Kyrie is a slight point guard with amazing moves, ball English (which I would compare positively to Larry's), court sense, shooting ability, can rebound, run fast, etc. As I said in another post, short players physically can't see the floor in a setup offense as well as taller guys; it's impossible, so for that very reason he should give up the ball in the set offense and run off screens for open looks, cuts and other plays. Who knows how they'll look with him back in the lineup, but so far the results have certainly been mixed this year. I think they can be a much better team with Kyrie on the floor than not but he has to play to Brad's coaching, not his game, and right now it looks a little late in the season for that to change much.
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Post by worcester Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:22 am

The Celts are 33-29 with Kyrie in the lineup, 11-2 when he is not. If I knew nothing about basketball, and I don't know much, I'd say that's a significant stat.

Also. I see Jaylen playing too few minutes too many games. Way too many games. I just cannot imagine him resigning with the Celts in two years if Brad, who consistently disses Jaylen through his actions, remains as coach. A huge continuing blunder by Brad.
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Post by BingBang! Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:51 am

Last year the Celts were 41-19 in the 60 games Kyrie played in for a 68% winning percentage and 14-8 in the 22 games he missed/sat out for a 64% winning percentage. I won't provide a narrative as I've already spouted quite a bit elsewhere.
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Post by worcester Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:16 am

We were 11-8 in the playoffs last year without Kyrie.
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Post by BingBang! Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:19 pm

worcester wrote:We were 11-8 in the playoffs last year without Kyrie.
Good news. We'll get a comparison this year with Kyrie playing.
As for this year' regular season, 3 of the 11 wins when Kyrie was not playing were against teams in the playoff structure.
Put another way, the Celts ex-Kyrie are 3-2 against teams in the playoff structure about the same win percent as in last year's playoffs.
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Post by mrkleen09 Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:32 pm

Zzzzzz. The blame game is one of the most non-productive exercises one can engage in.

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Post by RosalieTCeltics Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:02 pm

Not a big fan of Tomase. He pops up with his criticism of the Celtics when they are down..If they are Winning he jumps on board. Stevens has accepted his role in this disappointing year. Tomsse is just looking for a headline. If he thinks Brad is going anywhere he is wrong
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Post by swish Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:14 pm

mrkleen09 wrote:Zzzzzz.  The blame game is one of the most non-productive exercises one can engage in.


Typical opinions by a bunch of fans who are ready to pass judgement without the benefit of the behind the scene knowledge that is availabble to management - enough spectulation - give it time - eventually the full story will come to light.

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Post by jrleftfoot Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:43 pm

swish wrote:
mrkleen09 wrote:Zzzzzz.  The blame game is one of the most non-productive exercises one can engage in.


Typical opinions by a bunch of fans who are ready to pass judgement without the benefit of the behind the scene knowledge that is availabble to management - enough spectulation - give it time -  eventually the full story will come to light.

  swish
Agreed, and , in my case at least, guilty as charged.
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Post by RosalieTCeltics Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:38 pm

+1111
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Post by NYCelt Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:47 pm

I blame the dancers. They were really off the last couple of home games.

And the popcorn vendor. Did you see that lame 2 aisle toss in the 1st Q last game at TD?

Don't even get me started on that crappy sweat mop guy. Doesn't a real pro wipe cross-court?

It's seldom any one thing when a team performs below expectations, so why not go with those three?
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Post by tardust Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:08 pm

jrleftfoot wrote:OK. I am convinced. Get rid of Kyrie and this team will suddenly be transformed into an unbeatable dynasty. My bad. Can' t wait.


Well you never heard me say anything close to this. I simply pointed out facts about Kyrie. Check them if you don't believe. I basically said the ball moves without him and the team played well last year and 11-2 without him. Another fact. I never said we would win even one championship without him. I also wasn't one of the posters at the beginning of the year that had us as a dynasty and a lot of comparisons to Golden State. Now maybe those are the ones you should direct this at. I obviously thought we would be better than we are but I never had us penciled in as champions as so many on this board did. Hell we could have been knocked out the first round if we had drawn the Cavs. The Pacers took them to seven games in the first round and they actually got screwed on a couple of late calls in game 7. Yep your bad.
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Post by tardust Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:15 pm

BingBang! wrote:Last year the Celts were 41-19 in the 60 games Kyrie played in for a 68% winning percentage and 14-8 in the 22 games he missed/sat out for a 64% winning percentage. I won't provide a narrative as I've already spouted quite a bit elsewhere.

This also included a 18 game winning streak where we could do no wrong. I loved the streak but I did not for a second think we were that good. Even Brad made some kind of statement similar to that. Take that away and its probably about what we got now. We hit game ending shots and played good defense when someone had a chance to beat us. Where did that defense go?

I do think we will play better in the playoffs. Not sure why but I do. We will need Kyrie to be at his best. Our defense the last 20 games or so has been bad.
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Post by cowens/oldschool Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:41 pm

Hey BingBang! wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:Tonight at crunch time with not even the best lineup, we stepped up enough with everyone sharing the ball and moving/playing with purpose. Smart made some drives and plays, Tatum had a great pass, Al did his job. It was refreshing to see, everyone was capable of making plays for each other, whether it was a drive, pass, shot. With Kyrie, Stevens let’s him do too much as he’s the only one that can make the play, shot or pass and Kyries never been in this role before. On Cavs it was Lebron with the ball making all those decisions, Kyrie just had to play off him, go for an open catch and shoot, or drive off of a defense geared to stop Lebron first. Kyrie has great skills, but he’s not the incredible super closer he thinks he is, he can do some damage, but to his own team too. He’s obviously no where near as clutch as Bird or Pierce. I hope it’s not too late to have some plays in the clutch where the ball can go through Smart or Tatum or Al first, enabling Kyrie to get even a better look. This shit of Kyrie bringing the ball up and having all the say in a shot, drive or dish at the end game is getting old and coaches have already figured out how to defend it.
I'm not sure I agree that he's not clutch, he did hit the shot that won an NBA championship. But, I agree absolutely he's doing too much with the ball in his hands, most of the game, not just the fourth quarter. The difference, IMO between he and The Truth (it's not fair to compare anyone to Larry so I won't) is size. Paul had an unusual combination of deftness (Kyrie) but body thickness (not quite Unseld-like but Paul was a strong man). Paul could get his shot and make his shot through all kinds of contact. Paul's built somewhat like Sir Charles and at the 2/3 played a pretty similar game IMO to Charles but at a different position with different emphasis but both featuring all around capabilities and strength. Kyrie is a slight point guard with amazing moves, ball English (which I would compare positively to Larry's), court sense, shooting ability, can rebound, run fast, etc. As I said in another post, short players physically can't see the floor in a setup offense as well as taller guys; it's impossible, so for that very reason he should give up the ball in the set offense and run off screens for open looks. Who knows how they'll look with him back in the lineup, but so far the results have certainly been mixed this year. I think they can be a much better team with Kyrie on the floor than not but he has to play to Brad's coaching, not his game, and right now it looks a little late in the season for that to change much.

I never said he wasn’t clutch, he’s just not clutch compared to Bird or Pierce and I understand he hit the clutch shot to clinch series for Cavs. Not that big a sleight as not many greats are near as good in the clutch as were Bird and Pierce, including Lebron. Some of that may be because of size as you mentioned, I don’t know if he has the stamina toughness and durability to take over late as much as those guys, he’s definitely dazzling overall. This playoff run will show if he really is the premier primary option as in Cleveland it was Lebron in that role. Not all the losses are his fault, but I stand by my statements that Kyrie Rama with him taking over everything in the clutch is not gonna work, it may at times, but I felt better watching Bird and Pierce take over the way they did than Kyrie.

cowens/oldschool

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 Tomase: Looking to cast blame for disappointing Celtics? Start with Brad Stevens Empty Re: Tomase: Looking to cast blame for disappointing Celtics? Start with Brad Stevens

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