Post Game Thread - Preseason, vs Hornets 10/6/19

[bobheckler]

Let's not read too much into this, it was the first game of preseason.  All my thoughts here are of this game and this game only, a snapshot in time.  They might completely change after the next game.

THE GOOD

This is about the players whoj are likely to get solid rotation minutes or better.  Players that may or may not make the team and, even if they do, probably won't play much will be addressed later.

Jayson Tatum looked like he was in mid-season form already.  20 points on 8-14 and looked smooth and confident the whole time.  There was a bit of concern when he sprained his ankle in international play but all is well now.

The kids can play!  

Carsen Edwards is the real deal.  Absolute ice water in his veins.  First pro game and he hit his first few 3s like he was a 10 year veteran.  He missed some layups, it will take a bit of time for him to get used to the greater size and speed of the NBA bigs, but he is our ultimate "floor-stretcher".  11 points in 18 minutes.  Didn't see him even try to run the offense but, for a first game, that's fine.  For now, stick to what got you here, kid.

I liked what Brad Wanamaker did.  Not flashy, we know that, but solid.  8 points, 3 assists and only 1 turnover.  He appears to be what he appears to be, an acceptable NBA back up point guard.  A guy who can hold down the fort, but isn't likely to storm it.  Smart was the first guard off the bench, of course, but Wanamaker was next after him.  That's right about where I saw him coming in.

Gordon Hayward looked very good early on, but banged his elbow and that bothered him later.  So, his minutes and effectiveness was reduced.  This is in "the good" because he looked good until he got dinged up.  This guy cannot get a break on injuries.

Grant Williams is a hard worker.  9 rebounds in just 18 minutes, 3 of them my beloved offensive rebounds.  One of those O-boards could have been the game-winning play.  He just flat-out out-worked two Hornets trying to keep him away.  He might struggle with his offense because he's a tweener but, in the interest of full-and-fair-disclosure, I am terrible with tweeners.  I constantly misjudge and underestimate them.  That might be the case with GWill too, and nothing would make me happier than to be wrong here.


THE BAD

Same as the good, except the other side of the spectrum.

Jaylen Brown struggled.  He was 2-6 and only took 1 3pt fga, which means he missed from close.  Once again, this is just one game, but he didn't look like he was ready for this game.

The Time Lord was so hopped up because he was starting he got into early foul trouble.  I know this is all still very new for him and, as I have said several times this is just the first game, but for our center corp to succeed we need him to settle down.

Brian Robb @BrianTRobb
yesterday
Stevens: Rob Williams was so hyped to go, he was out of breath at 10 minute mark.

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Which brings us to another "bad":  our perimeter defense.  It was awful for a while.  They had 13 offensive rebounds.  Some of them were lucky caroms but way too many of them were off of penetrations that drew multiple defenders, leaving someone all alone at the front of the rim.  You can't blame the paint defenders for offensive putbacks by their man when they have to leave their man to pick up someone else's and that's what happened.  A lot.

They also had a fair number of offensive rebounds because they tapped the ball out.  That's weak boxing out.

Brian Robb @BrianTRobb
yesterday
Brad Stevens on regulars: We have to improve in every defensive area.

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Semi.

Kanter's defense.  It's all it was expected to be and that's scary.  Yet another reason why RWill needs to settle down.  We don't know about Poirier, Brad only played him 6 minutes last night (?), but I didn't see any improvement in Kanter's defense last night which makes him a very dubious starting center.  Right now I see RWill being ahead of Kanter on the depth chart, after one game, not just because of Kanter's defense but also because playing with Hayward and Kemba and Tatum will bolster Williams' play by surrounding him with veterans.  Our bench is already young, adding another callow youth to it won't help, so having Kanter come off the bench would be better.


THE BATTLE ON THE BUBBLE

The way I see it there are 3 players fighting over 1 spot:  Tacko Fall, Javonte Green and Semi Ojelaye.  

Semi shouldn't be on the bubble but I think he is and should be.  He did NOT look good last night, being only 1-6 from the floor, 0-3 from 3, in 15 minutes.  He also didn't impress me with his defense, which is supposed to be his calling card.  Not much point in having a "3-and-D" player who isn't hitting 3s and is playing weak D, is there?

The fans were going nuts for Tacko and they got him.  He can/will play in the NBA.  He's raw as St. Patty's Day in Boston, but he has enough to make an NBA roster and he's a hard worker.  He only played 5 minutes but he had 2 blocks and 5 points.  One habit he must break himself of is bringing the ball down to waist level.  He got stripped a few times doing that.  If he keeps the ball at shoulder level and above nobody will strip him.  His court vision is clearly limited, even though he can see over everybody, he didn't know who was around him and where his teammates were.  He needs a lot of minutes and he's not going to get them in Boston.  He will in Maine, but the only way that is going to happen is if Danny locks him up with an NBA contract and not a G-League one.  Do it, Danny.



The other player on the bubble is Javonte Green.  He had 15 points in 11 minutes on 7-7 shooting.  He's a highlight film level athlete.  There are players with noses for the ball, Green looks like one of them.  Just one game, no need to rush to judgement but...Did you know this was Javonte Green's first NBA game ever, even as a spectator?  First time he has ever been in an NBA arena.  Amazing.



Right now my order of "sign'em, Danny!" would be Tacko, then Green and Semi last.  They could cut Semi, or trade him for a 2nd rounder or a trade exception or such, and then give the last 2 slots to Green and Tacko.  We would be SUCH a young team then, but...

https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=401163122





bob



.

[bobheckler]

Here's an example of the horrid perimeter defense I was talking about.  BOTH Kemba and Kanter.  Kemba was lazy with his feet and Kanter completely forgot about his man.  The initial problem, however, was Kemba.  His half-assed, half-hearted attempt at perimeter defense put Kanter in an awkward spot, but Kanter didn't cover himself with glory neither.

https://twitter.com/Tom_NBA/status/1181222663274020864



bob



.

[Vankisa]

My first post on the board, so let me just say I have been using this forum for years to supplement my celtics news feeds and i have always appreciated the (in my epxerience) unprecedented amount of mature, level headed people with well thought opinions that have gathered here.

Additionally a short intro: I live in Germany, but am originally from the "Eastern Block". I am in my late 30s, work with Data on a daily basis and have been a Celtics fan since my Uncle gave me a small-sized green and white T-Shirt with the number 33 on the back when I was 6 years old .

As the game was relatively early (our time) yesterday I watched it on League Pass yesterday and re-watched some of it today.

I would like to throw my 2 cents in the form of a couple of additions to bobheckler's excellent analysis especially on our rookies, which were excellent.

GOOD

Really like our offense flow at the beginning of the game, I think whatever happens this years team will be much more fun to watch at least offensively than last years, as Bob pointed out Gordon looked good, leaner and faster than last year. Tatum looks more polished and Jaylen, despite having a bad game is showing flashes of aggresiveness. I think if Jaylen can styay aggressive for an entire game, warts and all, we would see him leap in his development this season.


BAD

Defense in general was abysmall in the first half - no boxing out, no or late rotations on defense, no effort sometimes (/wave Kantor) everything really.

What I did notice the most however is the giant black hole we have where Horford used to be. It has been well documented here that this would probably be the biggest impact for the team this year and the biggest loss, but the reality although in a small sample size did not look pretty. Charlotte killed us with drives to the basket in the first half that would never have been effective if we had a good defensive big there.

Kantor might be ok if he did not just skip posessions and did not reduce his effort on defense compared to the other side of the court... I hope that will change under Brad Stevens' coaching

Poirier looked good to me in the limited minutes he had, but was also obviously trying to catch up with the speed of an NBA game (as all rookies do I guess) ... I hope he will get settled in faster rather than in his second season.

I also expected R. Williams to be better, perhaps i read this board too much . It is a small sample size indeed, but it was his problem last year as well - he seems to lack fundamentals on defense: he is often late running back, he misses assignments, he gambles quite often looking for flashy blocks instead of blocking the lane... I hope he just needs to settle down a bit and getting consistent playing time will get him there, but he is still too raw at the moment to be considered for the starting position.

I would rank our Centers after 1 game: Kanter, R.Williams, Poirer

[bobheckler]

John Karalis  
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@RedsArmy_John
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Poirier on offense was an active screen-setter last night. In this one he was open for, and wanted, the alley oop from Kemba. Kemba didn't see it, but that's something that can come from more familiarity. They'll catch this in film and hit on it before the preseason is over

https://twitter.com/RedsArmy_John/status/1181236571053465603



bob



.

[bobheckler]

My first post on the board, so let me just say I have been using this forum for years to supplement my celtics news feeds and i have always appreciated the (in my epxerience) unprecedented amount of mature, level headed people with well thought opinions that have gathered here.

Additionally a short intro: I live in Germany, but am originally from the "Eastern Block". I am in my late 30s, work with Data on a daily basis and have been a Celtics fan since my Uncle gave me a small-sized green and white T-Shirt with the number 33 on the back when I was 6 years old .

As the game was relatively early (our time) yesterday I watched it on League Pass yesterday and re-watched some of it today.

I would like to throw my 2 cents in the form of a couple of additions to bobheckler's excellent analysis especially on our rookies, which were excellent.

GOOD

Really like our offense flow at the beginning of the game, I think whatever happens this years team will be much more fun to watch at least offensively than last years, as Bob pointed out Gordon looked good, leaner and faster than last year. Tatum looks more polished and Jaylen, despite having a bad game is showing flashes of aggresiveness. I think if Jaylen can styay aggressive for an entire game, warts and all, we would see him leap in his development this season.


BAD

Defense in general was abysmall in the first half - no boxing out, no or late rotations on defense, no effort sometimes (/wave Kantor) everything really.

What I did notice the most however is the giant black hole we have where Horford used to be. It has been well documented here that this would probably be the biggest impact for the team this year and the biggest loss, but the reality although in a small sample size did not look pretty. Charlotte killed us with drives to the basket in the first half that would never have been effective if we had a good defensive big there.

Kantor might be ok if he did not just skip posessions and did not reduce his effort on defense compared to the other side of the court... I hope that will change under Brad Stevens' coaching

Poirier looked good to me in the limited minutes he had, but was also obviously trying to catch up with the speed of an NBA game (as all rookies do I guess) ... I hope he will get settled in faster rather than in his second season.

I also expected R. Williams to be better, perhaps i read this board too much . It is a small sample size indeed, but it was his problem last year as well - he seems to lack fundamentals on defense: he is often late running back, he misses assignments, he gambles quite often looking for flashy blocks instead of blocking the lane... I hope he just needs to settle down a bit and getting consistent playing time will get him there, but he is still too raw at the moment to be considered for the starting position.

I would rank our Centers after 1 game: Kanter, R.Williams, Poirer

Vankisa,

Welcome! I see that you first joined in October of 2017, so you have certainly taken your measure of this board before contributing. I look forward to reading more of your thoughts. We have another board member who lives in Berlin (his ID is, not surprisingly, Berlin-T). We also have International from Puerto Rico and Swedeinestonia who is, wait for it, in Estonia.

I agree with what you wrote. As I said I think starting Williams might be best because he would be surrounded by veterans, not because he's the best center we have. Kanter's defense last night really appalled me.

See you around!


bob



.

[dboss]

This turned into a fun and exciting game.  I had to remind myself a few times that it was preseason game #1.

It would be difficult to divide guys into the good and bad categories because there was a lot of bad mixed in with the good.

I was surprised that Brad did not play their starters and primary rotation players more.  That 2nd/3rd string unit played with a lot of energy and Brad decided the game was up to them to win or lose.

Gh was quick enough to get to the rim.  But he was only 1-4 from deep

JT played effortlessly but he turned the ball over 3 times.

Walker did not take a lot of shots but he did record 4 assists and only 1 turnover.  

We saw some inside scoring from Kanter who went 4-4 and had 4 boards.  He got lost on defense a couple of times just like everyone else.

RW was over-hyped but he still managed to block 2 shots.  He only scored the first basket of the game and had 2 rebounds.  He also had an assist and 2 turnovers.

Jaylen Brown scored 6 points on 2-6 shooting.  He had 3 rebounds but also 2 turnovers.  His handle has definitely improved and he ran a nice fast break off of his steal, feeding Wannamaker for an easy layup.

In general the Celtics were very sloppy.  They had 23 turnovers.  Boston won the PITP battle 56-50.  They also got to the line more 17-24 v. 12-15 and also won the fast break battle 19-10.

They did not however do the job on the glass 48-41 Hornets and their 3 point shooting was ghastly (10-35)

Grant Williams led the team with 9 rebounds.  He also missed all 3 of his wide open catch and shoot 3 point opportunities.  Both Semi and Marcus went 0-3 from deep.  Marcus also turned the ball over 3 times.  He did play tough defense.

I have 2 star of the game awards.  The first goes to Carsen Edwards (3-6) from deep and no hesitation at all..  The 2nd goes to Green who went 7-7 and was dunking all over the place.  Wow he got hops.

Fan Favorite Tacko Fall played 8 minutes and manged to score 5 points with 3 rebounds and 2 blocks.  He also had 2 mistakes while holding the ball too low.

Summary

The Celtics have a long way to go.  There will be lineup changes.  Brad played 12 guys 10 or more minutes yesterday.  The starting center is still in a state of flux.  The Celtics perimeter defense looked really bad as did their lackadaisical approached to blocking out to secure more rebounds.

I see Tacko making the team as the 15th guy.  At this point an offer for even a 2-way deal will not be enough to retain him.  He will play up in Maine quite a bit this year.

Semi is not on the buddle.  Danny already made a decision to pick up his option.  Could he be traded?  Anything is possible but given all the question about PF I see him hanging around for another year.  I think the two bubble guys are Strus and Green.  Max has done little in my opinion.  I would cut him and put Green on a two way along with Waters.

I mentioned in another post about Vincent Poirier being behind.  He is behind.  

Know this.  There is no way for Stevens to figure out how this team fits or does not fit together in 4 preseason games.  If Brad wants to start his 4 wings along with Walker, RW looks like the best option at center,  That grouping will need to play together for a while.  Kanter looks like who I thought he would look like.  A guy that can create his own shot in the post and rebounds and at the same time be a complete sieve on defense.

[bobheckler]

This turned into a fun and exciting game.  I had to remind myself a few times that it was preseason game #1.

It would be difficult to divide guys into the good and bad categories because there was a lot of bad mixed in with the good.

I was surprised that Brad did not play their starters and primary rotation players more.  That 2nd/3rd string unit played with a lot of energy and Brad decided the game was up to them to win or lose.

Gh was quick enough to get to the rim.  But he was only 1-4 from deep

JT played effortlessly but he turned the ball over 3 times.

Walker did not take a lot of shots but he did record 4 assists and only 1 turnover.  

We saw some inside scoring from Kanter who went 4-4 and had 4 boards.  He got lost on defense a couple of times just like everyone else.

RW was over-hyped but he still managed to block 2 shots.  He only scored the first basket of the game and had 2 rebounds.  He also had an assist and 2 turnovers.

Jaylen Brown scored 6 points on 2-6 shooting.  He had 3 rebounds but also 2 turnovers.  His handle has definitely improved and he ran a nice fast break off of his steal, feeding Wannamaker for an easy layup.

In general the Celtics were very sloppy.  They had 23 turnovers.  Boston won the PITP battle 56-50.  They also got to the line more 17-24 v. 12-15 and also won the fast break battle 19-10.

They did not however do the job on the glass 48-41 Hornets and their 3 point shooting was ghastly (10-35)

Grant Williams led the team with 9 rebounds.  He also missed all 3 of his wide open catch and shoot 3 point opportunities.  Both Semi and Marcus went 0-3 from deep.  Marcus also turned the ball over 3 times.  He did play tough defense.

I have 2 star of the game awards.  The first goes to Carsen Edwards (3-6) from deep and no hesitation at all..  The 2nd goes to Green who went 7-7 and was dunking all over the place.  Wow he got hops.

Fan Favorite Tacko Fall played 8 minutes and manged to score 5 points with 3 rebounds and 2 blocks.  He also had 2 mistakes while holding the ball too low.

Summary

The Celtics have a long way to go.  There will be lineup changes.  Brad played 12 guys 10 or more minutes yesterday.  The starting center is still in a state of flux.  The Celtics perimeter defense looked really bad as did their lackadaisical approached to blocking out to secure more rebounds.

I see Tacko making the team as the 15th guy.  At this point an offer for even a 2-way deal will not be enough to retain him.  He will play up in Maine quite a bit this year.

Semi is not on the buddle.  Danny already made a decision to pick up his option.  Could he be traded?  Anything is possible but given all the question about PF I see him hanging around for another year.  I think the two bubble guys are Strus and Green.  Max has done little in my opinion.  I would cut him and put Green on a two way along with Waters.

I mentioned in another post about Vincent Poirier being behind.  He is behind.  

Know this.  There is no way for Stevens to figure out how this team fits or does not fit together in 4 preseason games.  If Brad wants to start his 4 wings along with Walker, RW looks like the best option at center,  That grouping will need to play together for a while.  Kanter looks like who I thought he would look like.  A guy that can create his own shot in the post and rebounds and at the same time be a complete sieve on defense.

Dboss,

Danny had a deadline he was facing on whether to pick up Semi's option or not. Semi is making $1.62M this year. I do not think that is such a big bite Danny and Wyc wouldn't eat it if they consider, say, Javonte Green to be who they want and they feel Grant Williams will be ready to replace Semi's role.


bob


.

[dboss]

Bob I do think Danny is ready to cut ties with Semi.  He just recently picked up the option.  

The Celtics right now do not have a proven starting quality PF.  That still looks like the weakness on this team.  I am not convinced that Grant Williams can defend quicker players or for that matter, be better shooting the deep ball.

After one preseason game no one has distinguished themselves in our frontcourt.

How come you have not mentioned the one guy on this team that has not impressed at all?  Max Strus is a guy the team has no place for.  We have more then enough wings on the team and he is on a 2 way deal.  

Boston lost Morris and they did not find a replacement in the draft or in free agency.

[NYCelt]

Always entertaining to watch the first few pre-season games and get a glimpse of everyone on the camp roster.

Hard to draw any conclusions at all so far.

Best guesses...

Kanter can contribute the interior offense that's been missing, but no defense. No surprises there.

R Williams can be the defensive half of the center tandem I think we're going to see. The second half showed, however, that they have to keep him within his role and let him play to his strengths. The ball can't be in his hands too much. He has to play within himself and his skill-set.

Tatum is going to be the go-to guy. As expected.

Want to play defense? Make sure Smart is on the floor.

Edwards and G Williams are going to make Danny look real good again. They'll add needed quality depth.

The best part of the show was the two guys in the stands dressed up as tacos. Tacko Mania is alive and well.

**************************************************************

Vankisa; Happy to see you posting! I hope you will join us here often.

[worcester]

If Tacko makes the team and stays in Boston, Brad should start him every game. For the first 24 seconds. Just to get every single tip off. When the ref throws the ball up, who else is going to tip it away from Tacko. Thus we get the first possession of every game. Then Brad can call a time out and sit him.

[NYCelt]

If Tacko makes the team and stays in Boston, Brad should start him every game. For the first 24 seconds. Just to get every single tip off. When the ref throws the ball up, who else is going to tip it away from Tacko. Thus we get the first possession of every game. Then Brad can call a time out and sit him.

Lacrosse comes to the NBA!

[mrkleen09]

No matter what happens - it will be fun. That alone is worth all the uncertainty.

Two years ago, with IT, Jonas, Crowder - the team was fun. They were scrappy, hard working and played with heart.

When Kyrie and Hayward arrived, I assumed that we had to lose some of the joy - as it was time to get down to business and win. Then Gordon got hurt in game one, Kyrie showed that he is not a leader, and the chemistry in the locker room went down. Season two was even worse.

So I guess, for my money - give me a fun team that likes each other and plays hard and plays for each other - over whatever Kyrie led teams look like.

This team will be just fine. Maybe not contenders right off the bat - but over time, we shall see. If we find out the Brown or even Tatum are not the potential stars we thought they were, then Danny has bigger decisions to make. But I dont expect that to happen. I think Jaylen, Jayson, Gordon and Kemba all gel together perfectly and by mid-season, we have one of the strongest front 4 in the NBA.

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