Hayward Opts OUT

kdp59 wrote:Horford left for greener pastures Irving left for greener pastures andnow Hayward left for greener pastures. I hope they all like  the new grass (Horford already found out it induces vomite..LOL).

we'll know about the  others soon enough.

out of those three players , the only one who cost Ainge anything was Irving!

The others all signed as Free agents and played out their contracts, getting something back for them leaving after their contracts are up are EXTRA'S not  a requirement.

and I am not a  lover of all things Ainge, as most of you  know.

But this IS the current NBA and the way things are. players WILL come and go and NONE have (nor should) have any loyalty ,except to themselves.

kdp,

Horford left for the only green pasture left to him at his age.  Kyrie left for the greener pasture in his flat-world head.  Unless Gordon made it clear to Brad and/or Ainge last year that he was dissatisfied here or that his expectations were a contract like he is signing then I'm not sure what else one could have done.  Of the three the only one I fault Danny for is Kyrie.  He knew what the locker room was like when he was here, EVERYBODY knew.  Trading Kyrie would have been the safe move, the constructive move from a locker room perspective.  Eliminating a cancer is a good thing.  The other two though, who saw them coming?  Crazy money for Al, crazy money for Hayward.  

How many players bitch to their coach or GM during a contract year?  There are some but Gordon is not that type of player.  How many players talk about contract expectations for future years during their contract year? Damn few.  In fact they are usually more than happy to offload that to their agent.  So, how many player agents start working on the front office for next year's contract during the season?  Not many.  They wait to see what teams have salary cap space, who have interest in their players and they rarely start putting the screws to the current GM prematurely because there's nothing to be gained by it UNLESS it's a trade deadline opportunity.

If there's an underlying philosophical flaw here it might be that Danny thinks that he can bring together elite players in their prime and expect them to share the ball and the glory.  Al and Kyrie and Jayson.  Kemba and Gordon and Jayson and an up-and-coming Jaylen.  Look at the 2008 Celtics.  3 elite players on their back 9 and getting backfilled with other good players on their back 9.  Look at this past year's Lakers.  Same.  LeBron is on his back 9, they got AD and the rest are grizzled veterans who still got game on a ring hunt.  Neither of those two championship teams are young and certainly neither of them are centered around young stars.  Anthony Davis is young, yes, but he's also a #1 draft pick and a generational talent and wanted to go to LAL because the older champion LeBron was already there.   KG didn't want to come here until after Danny got the older elite player, Ray Allen, here first.

So what about us?  We've got 2 young studs.  What elite players, still in their prime, would be willing to share the spotlight with them?  Kemba is special, in that regard. He has come right out and called himself a "place holder" for those two. A remarkable statement coming from a player on a max contract with more All-Star appearances than both of them combined. Kyrie wanted the ball in his hands all the time.  Gordon is getting crazy money, but also wants to move back towards center stage.  These are elite athletes, ALL of them, and ego is very much a factor.  Even though they make crazy money by our standards they are still always measuring themselves up against their peers' contracts.  They compete for money, time and stardom with each other, not against us mere mortals, and that's where chemistry plays such a big factor.  

The more I'm thinking about it the more I like the TT signing over the Myles Turner trade.  TT knows who and what he is.  He's been a champion (and I, for one, do not discount the value of that one bit!) and he knows he's never going to be better or more famous than he is.  Same with Teague, he is on his back 9 and knows he's not going to be a starter again except in the case of an injury to the starter.  Myles Turner might still think he's going to be the next Embiid.  He's not.  Myles Turner might want more touches than are available with KW, JT and JB on the court and he won't get them.


Bob


.

RosalieTCeltics wrote:I know that all the moves are good, I like TT move especially.  Teague is reliable for the most part. Would I still like having Hayward, probably yes, but, I know that it is just time to move on. Waiting for him to feel great was getting to be a trying time for this team.  It is not his fault, but it is not Danny's either.  If we had the chance to sign a free agent like him again, I would do it. We could not see into the future.

I cannot believe they report Tuesday, still not totally convinced this is the team we will see on opening night  

I like this kid Nesmith, he may be more ready to be our sniper than many think....

cowens/oldschool wrote:

RosalieTCeltics wrote:I know that all the moves are good, I like TT move especially.  Teague is reliable for the most part. Would I still like having Hayward, probably yes, but, I know that it is just time to move on. Waiting for him to feel great was getting to be a trying time for this team.  It is not his fault, but it is not Danny's either.  If we had the chance to sign a free agent like him again, I would do it. We could not see into the future.

I cannot believe they report Tuesday, still not totally convinced this is the team we will see on opening night  

I like this kid Nesmith, he may be more ready to be our sniper than many think....

Cow,

100%. I feel happy and sorry for the kid at the same time. He's going to get thrown into the fire sooner than a rookie should be because of the loss of Hayward's firepower. Furthermore, while Kanter was a turnstile on defense he sure could score in bunches. Thompson, whom I believe will at least start the season coming off the bench, is not a scorer (although he is a professional rebounder). The loss of Kanter's offense off the bench only serves to increase Nesmith's contributions.

I have no idea how Nesmith and Pritchard will do, I think their talents can translate to the NBA (I'm more confident of that with Nesmith, because of his length, but Pritchard is a very good ballhandler and shooter too. It might just take him more time to figure out how to deal with the bigger, longer, faster, stronger NBA game), but I feel cautiously hopeful. I said that Nesmith reminds me of Ray Allen, especially his footwork coming off a weakside screen. It might be more fair to compare him to Khris Middleton, and that'd be pretty awesome as well. The $64 question is "can he make an impact this year?". It is Celtic tradition to bring rookies along slowly. McHale came off the bench his rookie year, so did Jaylen and, of course, Havlicek. Nesmith might still come off the bench but he needs to step up now. We need him now.


Bob


.

Bob we do need them now, but like I said in a different thread, Jordan didn’t win his first title until he was 28, so I’m in it for the long haul and with the signing of TT, I feel a lot better about this team. Exciting having such a young team, like when Cowens was a rookie and Bird was a rook, and both those guys came into the league much later than the 2 J’s. As long as we see continued superstar growth from 2 J’s, they exceeded their previous jump/abilities IMHO and continued growth from Williams bros and Romeo and if rooks can show they can do their strengths at this level....I’ll be happy.

bobheckler wrote:

kdp59 wrote:Horford left for greener pastures Irving left for greener pastures andnow Hayward left for greener pastures. I hope they all like  the new grass (Horford already found out it induces vomite..LOL).

we'll know about the  others soon enough.

out of those three players , the only one who cost Ainge anything was Irving!

The others all signed as Free agents and played out their contracts, getting something back for them leaving after their contracts are up are EXTRA'S not  a requirement.

and I am not a  lover of all things Ainge, as most of you  know.

But this IS the current NBA and the way things are. players WILL come and go and NONE have (nor should) have any loyalty ,except to themselves.

kdp,

Horford left for the only green pasture left to him at his age.  Kyrie left for the greener pasture in his flat-world head.  Unless Gordon made it clear to Brad and/or Ainge last year that he was dissatisfied here or that his expectations were a contract like he is signing then I'm not sure what else one could have done.  Of the three the only one I fault Danny for is Kyrie.  He knew what the locker room was like when he was here, EVERYBODY knew.  Trading Kyrie would have been the safe move, the constructive move from a locker room perspective.  Eliminating a cancer is a good thing.  The other two though, who saw them coming?  Crazy money for Al, crazy money for Hayward.  

How many players bitch to their coach or GM during a contract year?  There are some but Gordon is not that type of player.  How many players talk about contract expectations for future years during their contract year? Damn few.  In fact they are usually more than happy to offload that to their agent.  So, how many player agents start working on the front office for next year's contract during the season?  Not many.  They wait to see what teams have salary cap space, who have interest in their players and they rarely start putting the screws to the current GM prematurely because there's nothing to be gained by it UNLESS it's a trade deadline opportunity.

If there's an underlying philosophical flaw here it might be that Danny thinks that he can bring together elite players in their prime and expect them to share the ball and the glory.  Al and Kyrie and Jayson.  Kemba and Gordon and Jayson and an up-and-coming Jaylen.  Look at the 2008 Celtics.  3 elite players on their back 9 and getting backfilled with other good players on their back 9.  Look at this past year's Lakers.  Same.  LeBron is on his back 9, they got AD and the rest are grizzled veterans who still got game on a ring hunt.  Neither of those two championship teams are young and certainly neither of them are centered around young stars.  Anthony Davis is young, yes, but he's also a #1 draft pick and a generational talent and wanted to go to LAL because the older champion LeBron was already there.   KG didn't want to come here until after Danny got the older elite player, Ray Allen, here first.

So what about us?  We've got 2 young studs.  What elite players, still in their prime, would be willing to share the spotlight with them?  Kemba is special, in that regard.  He has come right out and called himself a "place holder" for those two.  A remarkable statement coming from a player on a max contract with more All-Star appearances than both of them combined.  Kyrie wanted the ball in his hands all the time.  Gordon is getting crazy money, but also wants to move back towards center stage.  These are elite athletes, ALL of them, and ego is very much a factor.  Even though they make crazy money by our standards they are still always measuring themselves up against their peers' contracts.  They compete for money, time and stardom with each other, not against us mere mortals, and that's where chemistry plays such a big factor.  

The more I'm thinking about it the more I like the TT signing over the Myles Turner trade.  TT knows who and what he is.  He's been a champion (and I, for one, do not discount the value of that one bit!) and he knows he's never going to be better or more famous than he is.  Same with Teague, he is on his back 9 and knows he's not going to be a starter again except in the case of an injury to the starter.  Myles Turner might still think he's going to be the next Embiid.  He's not.  Myles Turner might want more touches than are available with KW, JT and JB on the court and he won't get them.


Bob


.

Bob, A lot of what you’re indicating here is that the GM’s and folks in these positions are basically just sitting and waiting on the player or agent to give some indication of their intentions. Not realistic. The GM’s are supposed to be just as proactive on their end so they can assess and create alternatives for different scenarios in case they arise , whatever they may be and as you indicated there are many. A good GM gets ahead of situations especially when they know a players option year is coming. Ainge  was fully aware of what all 3 situations were from the beginning. It doesn’t make much difference whether it be a sports franchise, Fortune 500 or a Ma&Pa corner store, Good Managers/owners gauge these situations and are not caught holding their gonads and ending up with zero. Sorry, Ainge gets no pass here.

A couple questions for capologists: Could Danny have signed TT and Teague if either GH resigned or if we traded GH to Indy for Turner and whomever? This seems to be an important point in considering whether or not Danny mishandled the GH situation. If these signings could have happened independent of how the GH saga played out, then Danny messed up. He would have to get an ~ 30 million TPE from Charlotte to even begin to recoup the lost value. Even then he could only cash out the TPE under unusual circumstances, i.e. a team is willing to give up a good player for only financial reasons; the Celtic's financial flexibility has been seriously reduced.

If he could only sign TT and Teague if GH walked, then maybe it is a different story. Even if this were the case, whether or not you wanted to pay GH 30 million/year or if you prefer TT to GH or Turner, Danny still exchanged a 34 million dollar asset for a 12.1 million dollar asset (8.5 plus TT, 3.6 for Teague = 12.1). From a business perspective, that is pretty much a disaster. If Danny didn't like Turner, he still would have been better off collecting the asset for a future trade; even some return is better than none.  However, that story would seem to depend on whether we get a TPE from Charlotte, and how much that TPE is worth. If we do get one, and it exceeds 17 million, then Danny has done alright. Basically, adding 17 million to TT and Teague's combined worth of 12.6 million means that Danny got 30 million in assets while letting GH leave for Charlotte, i.e. what Charlotte is paying him. If we get more than 17 million in TPE, then that is obviously even better.

So, 1) could we only sign TT and Teague if GH walked, and 2) what is the amount of the TPE we can get?