Jeff Teague signs

bobheckler wrote:For what it's worth I'm not as on board with the Teague signing as others seem to be.  I think Danny blew it by not resigning Wanny.  Teague's numbers fell off the table last year in Indy.  He's not as good a 3pt shooter (33.3% vs 36.3%, so not that close), he's not as good a 2pt shooter (42% vs 48%, so not close at all) and he's not as good a frito shooter (88.7% vs 92.6%).  His Net Offensive/Defensive Rating is about the same.  And, last but not least, he's brand new to Brad's system.  Wanny had spent 2 years in it already.  Knows the system, knows the plays, knows his teammates preferences and inclinations.

IMO, Danny should have resigned Wanny for about the same money.  This is why I have trouble predicting what Danny will do, I don't understand his thought process sometimes.


Bob


.

bob

I strongly disagree. Stats are always suspect when sample sizes are small. Teague is so much more skilled than Wanamaker that it is not even close. Wanamaker with 107 NBA games and 1 start and Teague with 771 NBA game and 593 starts.

Let's not turn Brad's system into some difficult to decipher secret code. Brad's offensive system looks pretty bland to me. I am pretty sure that Teague's experience as a starting PG will allow him to hit the ground running.

BW did his job and he did it well but his position has been upgraded.

Im with Bob on this. I think we are better off with Wanny. Maybe someday Danny will explain not keeping Wanny and signing Teague instead. Personally I don’t care to listen to anything Danny has too say right now.

Ktron wrote:Im with Bob on this. I think we are better off with Wanny. Maybe someday Danny will explain not keeping Wanny and signing Teague instead. Personally I don’t care to listen to anything Danny has too say right now.

ktron

I think the ultimate answer to any speculation must come from actually seeing Teague play for us.

I think that is fair. I am basing my judgement on seeing both of them play in the NBA as PG's . Let's see how JT does before we sever Danny's head.

RosalieTCeltics wrote:You know, I am kind of glad about that. There is just something about him that I like.  I know he works so darn hard to keep in shape, is hardly ever hurt, and has been working hard on his shooting. You never know.....this could be his year

Listen, so much negative stuff,have to grab onto something that makes me happy. I am now pushing the Jaylen Brown fan club, had to make the big choice and my son said that I liked the Brown pick from the beginning, so he has me cheering hard for him now. Need something to look forward to!!!!

I’m in that club too, he is still harnessing his game, but he has much elite talent as any wing out there, more athletic than Kawhi, regularly dunks on Lebron and Giannis. He’s still putting it together, would be shocked, would be criminal for him NOT to make all star team this year.

jrleftfoot wrote:Teague shoots 35.6 percent from three, lifetime. Wanny's a great free throw shooter who doesn't draw many fouls. Both defend well, but Teague couldn't cover for Trae Young, who doesn't defend at all. Wannamaker is stronger, Teague quicker. I liked Brad too, but I think they are comparable players.

JT will also benefit from playing with more talent, he will get more open looks, just playing off 2 J’s. Really he may be more helpful veteran experience and hoping he can also help in development of Waters and Pritchard, who’s also supposed to have a lethal 3 point stroke. I really like the TT signing, we finally have a physical rebounding glass eater, he can only help. Call me crazy, the guy I’d like to see start is RWill, hoping for a dramatic jump. Maybe some stretches where we even go big with RWill and TT playing together....

Cow, last night I envisioned Kemba, Jaylen, Jayson, RWill, and TT on the floor together. In certain matchups that could be punishing.

worcester wrote:Cow, last night I envisioned Kemba, Jaylen, Jayson, RWill, and TT on the floor together. In certain matchups that could be punishing.

Yeah add Smart in there for Kemba and that defense will be historic for stretches.

dboss wrote:

bobheckler wrote:For what it's worth I'm not as on board with the Teague signing as others seem to be.  I think Danny blew it by not resigning Wanny.  Teague's numbers fell off the table last year in Indy.  He's not as good a 3pt shooter (33.3% vs 36.3%, so not that close), he's not as good a 2pt shooter (42% vs 48%, so not close at all) and he's not as good a frito shooter (88.7% vs 92.6%).  His Net Offensive/Defensive Rating is about the same.  And, last but not least, he's brand new to Brad's system.  Wanny had spent 2 years in it already.  Knows the system, knows the plays, knows his teammates preferences and inclinations.

IMO, Danny should have resigned Wanny for about the same money.  This is why I have trouble predicting what Danny will do, I don't understand his thought process sometimes.


Bob


.

bob

I strongly disagree.   Stats are always suspect when sample sizes are small.    Teague is so much more skilled than Wanamaker that it is not even close.  Wanamaker with 107 NBA games and 1 start and Teague with 771 NBA game and 593 starts.  

Let's not turn Brad's system into some difficult to decipher secret code.  Brad's offensive system looks pretty bland to me.  I am pretty sure that Teague's experience as a starting PG will allow him to hit the ground running.  

BW did his job and he did it well but his position has been upgraded.

I'm with Dboss on this one. Teague is much better than wanny. Wanny's percentages are good not only because he is a solid pro (he is), but he wasn't asked to do much, and typically only shot when it was a good shot. Teague has been asked to do much more. I think Brad's system will make him look better. Think TT is also a big upgrade over Kanter, and will be an upgrade over Theis as well (glad to still have Theis though).

I would take Teague over BW. Career wise, he's a better scorer. He also has more playoff exp.


Kj

During the playoffs we often see teams shorten their rotations by playing their starters more minutes.

There is no problem doing that with Jayson, Jaylen and Marcus.  However with GH and KW less than 100% it put too much stress on the team.  Smart filled in for GH for most of the playoffs while averaging 38 MPG but we also saw Kemba's numbers go up from 31.1 MPG to 36.9 MPG.  Our main BU at PG was BW.  He played 19 MPG during the regular season but that dropped down to 16MPG during the playoffs.

Kemba struggled the longer the playoff run continued but we really did not have a viable replacement for him.  This is the reason why Danny did not bring BW back,  Danny needed a veteran guy with both starter level and playoff level experience that can step in and play quality extended minutes as needed.

With GH gone from the team Smart is the most likely guy to be elevated into the starting lineup.  That would have made BW the full time BU PG.  

At this point we do not even know if Kemba Walker has recovered well enough to begin the season and even if he is, his playing time may be cut back.

Teague could play a prominent role in this regard.  

Our new rookie Peyton Pritchard (PP) is likely to beat out both Carson Edwards and Tremont Waters for playing time.

Here is why.

Carson Edwards is not a PG.  He is a shooting guard in a diminutive shooting guard body.  I had questions about this when he was drafted because his college assists number did not reflect a PG that could actually run a high powered NBA offense.  He only average 2.9 assists in his 3rd year.  As a matter of fact he had more turnovers per game (3.1) than assists.  While he came with a reputation of being a 3 point shooter he shot .355% his last year which is good but not really eye opening.  His FG % which to me is a better measurement of his scoring ability was only 39.9%.  His best game on this team was in the Vegas Summer league.  He struggled in the NBA with an obvious below average handle and an inability to get off his shot because of his lack of size against  taller players.  I know we were hoping for a Vinnie Johnson type of bench scorer but that is not what we have here.

Tremont Waters has ball handling skills but he is too small to play in the NBA in any rotational capacity.  

Enter PP.  a PG with PG skills including a strong handle.  He averaged 5.5 assists in college and shot 48% from the field and 41% from deep.  He is a real fighter.  He has some swag in his game.  This draft was loaded with quality PG's but he was 1st Team All American.  Edwards and Waters were second round talent.  Playing well in college, summer league and G league does not always translate into becoming a rotation guy at the next level.

Wanamaker was not replaced by Teague.  Wanamaker was replaced by PP.  Celtics fans are going to love this kid.

Dboss hope/praying you are right, my son loves this pick.

Production wise, I think Wanamaker and Teague are pretty similar players at this point in their careers.
Ultimately, I think Teague is the better player to have in the playoffs because of his experience.
Experience means so much in the playoffs.

Speaking of experience or lack of experience, I do not think much at all can be expected of Payton Pritchard this season.
He is a 6'2" and seems to be quite slow for a point guard.
Nesmith can help Boston this season, but after watching Pritchard's college highlights, I don't see him getting meaningful minutes this season.

cowens/oldschool wrote:Dboss hope/praying you are right, my son loves this pick.

He already has worn green so he should fit right in.

I know folks think I am over-hyping him and I am to a degree but his credentials and the good ole eye test tells me he can help this team as a PG better than Edwards or Waters can.

By the way your son is pretty smart.

BingBang! wrote:Chicken and egg line of inquiry I think. Gordon was the fourth option here so of course, by definition his impact was limited. I think he’s a better overall player than anybody on the current Celtics roster except Tatum and has the most well rounded game of all of them. As to why he left, on Twitter his wife Robyn wrote that she was happy living in Wellesley but that now “I am excited to see my husband show his talent again and play in Charlotte.” Pretty clear message. “Let my people go” Exodus 5:1; like most messages worth anything it’s universal.

Part of it may be that he wanted the chance to play, but I think it's mostly financially motivated, not that there's anything in particular he didn't like about playing here. He had one year left on his deal at $34M (I think) if he didn't opt out. Celtics weren't likely to re-up him at anywhere near that at the end of next year, and given his injury history over the past few years, a serious injury playing on the last year of his Boston contract could end his career or significantly impact his future earnings potential. His agent put out feelers to see if he could get a multi-year deal someplace else for more money than the $34M he was owed, and managed to sucker Jordan into throwing a lot of money his way. I can't see any way a player in that situation doesn't follow the money... no one is going to leave that much on the table for a shot at a ring.

-V

dboss wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:Dboss hope/praying you are right, my son loves this pick.

He already has worn green so he should fit right in.

I know folks think I am over-hyping him and I am to a degree but his credentials and the good ole eye test tells me he can help this team as a PG better than Edwards or Waters can.

By the way your son is pretty smart.

well since they played a combined 470 minutes last year that's a pretty low bar, I would think. But sound about right to me. Expecting more than that from this kid is someone that's just trying to convince themselves to me. But again time will tell if he was a good pick or a waste.

I mean I thought the J. Young pick was a STEAL on draft day after all....LOL.

kdp59 wrote:

dboss wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:Dboss hope/praying you are right, my son loves this pick.

He already has worn green so he should fit right in.

I know folks think I am over-hyping him and I am to a degree but his credentials and the good ole eye test tells me he can help this team as a PG better than Edwards or Waters can.

By the way your son is pretty smart.

well since they played a combined 470 minutes last year that's a pretty low bar, I would think. But sound about right to me. Expecting more than that from this kid is someone that's just trying to convince themselves to me. But again time will tell if he was a good pick or a waste.

I mean I thought the J. Young pick was a STEAL on draft day after all....LOL.

kdp,

You and Bill Simmons, so you're in good company.


Bob


.

tjmakz wrote:Production wise, I think Wanamaker and Teague are pretty similar players at this point in their careers.
Ultimately, I think Teague is the better player to have in the playoffs because of his experience.
Experience means so much in the playoffs.

Speaking of experience or lack of experience, I do not think much at all can be expected of Payton Pritchard this season.
He is a 6'2" and seems to be quite slow for a point guard.
Nesmith can help Boston this season, but after watching Pritchard's college highlights, I don't see him getting meaningful minutes this season.

TJ,

I also give the edge to Teague. He's slowed from what he was, but last I saw he still seemed to be a more proficient passer and playmaker than Wannamaker. Playoff experienced can't hurt, as you point out.

I'll also agree with your take on Pritchard. Among my biggest surprise/disappointments in a Celtic draft. I'm hopeful he's going to prove me wrong. NCAA ball is what I do follow, much more so than the NBA, and past picks I rank Pritchard with... well, he's not quite the long shot of a  Jerome Moiso or James Young, but not too far in the distance either. I put him in the 'seems like a nice kid but not an NBA player' category.

He's a Pac-12 product, which is OK, but not as strong as SEC, ACC or Big-10. Certainly an easier conference to earn All-America accolades. I've watched him play for 4 years and will be surprised if he ever plays much in Boston. He can shoot, which appears to be why he was drafted by a team in need of shooters. I doubt he plays pg much, probably an NBA 2G if anything. Your observation that he's slow isn't too far off. He lacks that first-step burst; acceleration. His one advantage is maturity, entering the draft as a 4-year player. Maybe that could give him a leg up on Boston's other younger guards.

On the opposite end, I'm really pleased they took Nesmith.

Regards

tjmakz wrote:Production wise, I think Wanamaker and Teague are pretty similar players at this point in their careers.
Ultimately, I think Teague is the better player to have in the playoffs because of his experience.
Experience means so much in the playoffs.

Speaking of experience or lack of experience, I do not think much at all can be expected of Payton Pritchard this season.
He is a 6'2" and seems to be quite slow for a point guard.
Nesmith can help Boston this season, but after watching Pritchard's college highlights, I don't see him getting meaningful minutes this season.

I guess we will need to see him play. Expecting him to be a 3rd pg is not expecting to much.

BW is not in the same category as JT. Go look at their stats this year and tell me what you find

dboss wrote:

tjmakz wrote:Production wise, I think Wanamaker and Teague are pretty similar players at this point in their careers.
Ultimately, I think Teague is the better player to have in the playoffs because of his experience.
Experience means so much in the playoffs.

Speaking of experience or lack of experience, I do not think much at all can be expected of Payton Pritchard this season.
He is a 6'2" and seems to be quite slow for a point guard.
Nesmith can help Boston this season, but after watching Pritchard's college highlights, I don't see him getting meaningful minutes this season.

I guess we will need to see him play.  Expecting him to be a 3rd pg is not expecting to much.

BW is not in the same category as JT.  Go look at their stats this year and tell me what you find

Teague and Wanamaker's numbers are very similar in per minute stats.
Teague averages more assists.
Wanamaker shoots better in all categories.

2019-20 season:

Teague
20.8 mpg
41.2% FG
33.3% 3PT FG
88.7% FT
7.7 PPG
2.2 RPG
4.0 APG

Wanamaker
19.3 mpg
44.8% FG
36.3% 3PT FG
92.6% FT (Lead the league)
6.9 PPG
2.0 RPG
2.5 APG

Also, in my opinion, Wanamaker is a much tougher and much better defender compared to Teague.

Teague's 4 assists/game versus 2.5 for Wannie is a needed pickup for a team low on distributors.

tjmakz wrote:

dboss wrote:

tjmakz wrote:Production wise, I think Wanamaker and Teague are pretty similar players at this point in their careers.
Ultimately, I think Teague is the better player to have in the playoffs because of his experience.
Experience means so much in the playoffs.

Speaking of experience or lack of experience, I do not think much at all can be expected of Payton Pritchard this season.
He is a 6'2" and seems to be quite slow for a point guard.
Nesmith can help Boston this season, but after watching Pritchard's college highlights, I don't see him getting meaningful minutes this season.

I guess we will need to see him play.  Expecting him to be a 3rd pg is not expecting to much.

BW is not in the same category as JT.  Go look at their stats this year and tell me what you find

Teague and Wanamaker's numbers are very similar in per minute stats.
Teague averages more assists.
Wanamaker shoots better in all categories.

2019-20 season:

Teague
20.8 mpg
41.2% FG
33.3% 3PT FG
88.7% FT
7.7 PPG
2.2 RPG
4.0 APG

Wanamaker
19.3 mpg
44.8% FG
36.3% 3PT FG
92.6% FT (Lead the league)
6.9 PPG
2.0 RPG
2.5 APG

TJ

Your assessment is off.

The production that you provide for Teague only includes the 25 games that JT played in Atlanta.  It does not include the 34 games that he played in Minnesota.

At the very least it would only be fair if those numbers were combined.  So I'll help you out with that.

That gives Teague averages of 10.9 PPG, 5.2 assists and 2.4 rebounds.  Your argument has more holes in it than an old  piece of Swiss Cheese with mold forming around the edges.

Wanamaker averaged 6.9 PPG , 2.5 assists and 2 rebounds.  

Danny preferred Teague over Wanamaker.  

Teague is clearly the better option and the numbers are not close.  

I should also mention that Teague's 5.2 combined assists (Atl/Mn)  is more than any player on the Celtics had last year.  Think about that for a minute.

The Teague vs Wannamaker debate is hard to quantify.

From an admin standpoint, it might be Danny and Co. never even thought about Teague when they declined to make Wannamaker an offer. They might have been thinking Wannamaker just didn't give them what they needed in the very possible event Walker was out for an extended period. With a point guard, perhaps more than any other position, it's not always just stats. Sometimes you need the pass-first facilitator who sets others up. Those guys don't always shine in the stat sheet.

Maybe Teague just happened to be the most affordable short term option available who also had experience playing in playoff shortened rotations. Being adaptable and experienced may have won over number tallies. Opportunity, rather than planning, may have been the father of this roster move.

dboss wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

Teague and Wanamaker's numbers are very similar in per minute stats.
Teague averages more assists.
Wanamaker shoots better in all categories.

2019-20 season:

Teague
20.8 mpg
41.2% FG
33.3% 3PT FG
88.7% FT
7.7 PPG
2.2 RPG
4.0 APG

Wanamaker
19.3 mpg
44.8% FG
36.3% 3PT FG
92.6% FT (Lead the league)
6.9 PPG
2.0 RPG
2.5 APG

TJ

Your assessment is off.

The production that you provide for Teague only includes the 25 games that JT played in Atlanta.  It does not include the 34 games that he played in Minnesota.

At the very least it would only be  fair if those numbers were combined.  So I'll help you out with that.

That gives Teague averages of 10.9 PPG, 5.2 assists and 2.4 rebounds.  Your argument has more holes in it than an old  piece of Swiss Cheese with mold forming around the edges.

Wanamaker averaged 6.9 PPG , 2.5 assists and 2 rebounds.  

Danny preferred Teague over Wanamaker.  

Teague is clearly the better option and the numbers are not close.  

I should also mention that Teague's 5.2 combined assists (Atl/Mn)  is more than any player on the Celtics had last year.  Think about that for a minute.

I have some affinity for numbers so I would like to jump in with my 2 cents

As dboss points out TJs stats are incomplete, but to be fair of the point he is trying to make on a "per minute" basis Jeff Teague achieved those stats playing 24.8 minutes per game. I actually started calculating the averages myself but then I saw that nba.com already had a nice compare tool:
Teague vs Wannamaker

So to have a "fair" basis of discussion on stats I used a simple coefficient to "dumb down" Teague's production to the "per 19.3 min" that Wannamaker has. (Should be noted that such a simplistic linear projection is cannot be trusted with a high degree of certainty):

JT ((extrapolated))
19.3 mpg
43.8% FG
37.2% 3PT FG (not sure why it is 36.8 on site )
88.7% FT
8.5 PPG
1.9 RPG
4.1 APG

Wanamaker
19.3 mpg
44.8% FG
36.3% 3PT FG
92.6% FT (Lead the league)
6.9 PPG
2.0 RPG
2.5 APG

Make of those stats what you will. For me, I agree with TJ that Wannamaker is a tougher, longer defender than Teague. But I disagree that they are on the same level. They are not on the same level purely looking at the stats and Jeff Teague is a former All Star, a former starting PG, former 2nd option on a team. I mean there is just no contest that his value as a veteran player at high level is much better than Wannamaker's. That added value for me would mostly show itself in the playoffs however, in the Regular Season the difference between them might be summarized by the stats above indeed.