Are The Celtics Too Young?

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Are The Celtics Too Young?

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Post by bobheckler Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:18 am

https://www.celticsblog.com/2020/12/6/22154504/boston-celtics-youth-conundrum-aaron-nesmith-payton-pritchard-robert-grant-williams-romeo-langford



Boston’s youth conundrum


The 2021 Celtics would be a historically young contender.


By Arjun Balaraman  

Dec 6, 2020, 9:00am EST



After his team’s hard-fought win in Game 7 of the second round playoffs against the then defending champion Toronto Raptors, Brad Stevens couldn’t help but marvel at just how young his Eastern Conference Finals-bound group was. “We have three 30-year-olds. We’re like basically a college team with a couple of guys.”

And Stevens wasn’t wrong – the Celtics were the third youngest conference finalist this century (by weighted average age – which allows us to account for teams that did not play their young guys at all), trailing only the 2011 Thunder and 2018 Celtics.

This year, after replacing Brad Wanamaker and Gordon Hayward with veteran Jeff Teague and rookie Aaron Nesmith, the Celtics are down to just two thirtysomethings. An already historically young team for a contender is now…even younger.

With Kemba Walker set to miss the opening portion of the season, the Celtics will be fully leaning in to the youth movement, as rookie Payton Pritchard should get some minutes at the backup point guard spot behind Teague at the start of the year. Romeo Langford is also still recovering from an injury, so Nesmith also figures to be one of the first two wings off the Celtic bench.

But the problem with relying on rookies for rotation minutes is that, put bluntly, players are just usually not very good in Year One. While the nightmares of Heat rookie Tyler Herro hitting jump shot after jump shot in the Eastern Conference Finals still keep the Boston faithful from getting a full night’s sleep, his outlier performance shouldn’t skew one’s opinion of what rookie years truly look like.

As Seth Partnow noted for The Athletic recently, less than 1/3 of draft selections have played at least 500 minutes while contributing at above -2.0 PIPM (Player Impact Plus Minus, -2.0 is considered replacement level). Less than 10% reached “above-average” levels of play and a large portion of those players are high-draft picks.

Are The Celtics Too Young? Screen_Shot_2020_12_04_at_6.50.21_PM
Seth Partnow, The Athletic

Of course, all this data holds true in a normal season, one in which draftees have a couple months to get into their team facilities and work with strength and conditioning coaches before a full-length training camp. This season, for so many reasons, is obviously not a normal year. This year, Pritchard and Nesmith will have a grand total of 35 days between hearing their name called at the draft and Game 1 against Giannis and the Milwaukee Bucks.

This is not to say that it’s all necessarily going to be doom and gloom for the 14th and 26th picks this season. Pritchard is a high IQ, four-year player out of Oregon who should be able to push the pace and knock down open shots, while Nesmith is a sharpshooter – a skill that should translate to the NBA immediately. It’s more than possible that both will turn into solid role players in the next few years, and, in fact, it may actually be beneficial for their long-term careers to be thrown into the fire at the start of this season as they’ll both be able to play through their mistakes. But expecting them to provide productive rotation minutes and help fix Boston’s bench problems in their first year is an unfair expectation and relatively unrealistic in the context of rookie history.

Nesmith and Pritchard can serve as long-term solutions to surrounding Brown and Tatum with solid, complementary pieces. Given the Celtics will be relatively cap strung in the coming years with Tatum’s extension kicking in next summer alongside Brown and Walker’s deals, internal development was always going to be the best way to find cheap talent, and both Pritchard and Nesmith look to be the kind of players that will fit well alongside Boston’s young core going down the line.

It’s also worth noting how expectations have shifted with Jayson Tatum’s emergence as a bona fide star. Most Celtics fans would have been quite happy to reach the conference finals at the start of last season, having lost Al Horford, Kyrie Irving, and Marcus Morris. But Tatum’s eruption at the start of 2020 moved the goalposts.

But, as currently constructed, this Celtics team is simply too young around the edges to be true contenders. According to my rough distribution of minutes for the year, this Celtics team could be the youngest team to ever make The Finals.

They would be just clear of the 2012 Thunder – who were also led by a 22-year-old superstar in Kevin Durant. After falling to Dirk Nowitzki and the Mavericks in 2011, the Thunder retooled the following season with largely the same roster, adding veteran 38-year-old Derek Fisher late in 2012. Fisher had been in difficult playoff situations countless times before, and his experience – both on and off the court – played an important role in helping that Thunder team get over the hump and into The Finals.

So, given how young this team is, if Danny Ainge believes that the Boston core is ready for a championship run this season, then he must use the trade exception acquired from Charlotte before the deadline to pick up a vet. This Celtics squad has largely the same core that reached Game 6 of the Conference Finals last season, with Hayward injured throughout Rounds 1 and 2 and hobbled when he returned at the end of Round 3. While they added one player with championship experience in Tristan Thompson, an addition on the wing who could contribute both in the locker room and on the court could be the key in raising Banner 18. More likely, if Ainge feels the group is still a year away, letting Nesmith and Pritchard (and Grant Williams, Robert Williams, and Romeo Langford for that matter) learn through their mistakes may be the most fruitful path.


Bob
MY NOTE:  Multiple choice is not allowed, but vote cancelling and re-voting is allowed.  That's so you can watch the young'uns play in the preseason and change your viewpoint based upon what you are seeing game-by-game.  IF YOU CHANGE YOUR VOTE please announce your change and why.  Your insight might be helpful to someone.


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Post by KyleCleric Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:43 am

This conversation is about the player after Walker/Teague/Smart/Brown/Tatum/Thomas/Theis. I’m sure we’re not worried about age and experience in that core group. There’s time to figure this out whether the next player is on the roster (Grant Williams/Nesmith/Langford/Green) or not.

If I was to make a prediction, it’s Grant Williams.

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Post by RosalieTCeltics Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:10 pm

I am willing to wait a while, watch the young guys this year, and see if they have learned anything from last year and see if the two new ones produce faster, hoping that the answer to that is yes.
I have hopes that Nesmith will be a standout pick for us if given the chance. I also think that Grant Williams needs to show us his intelligence on the court, Romeo needs to heal and get on the floor consistently. Pritchard is someone who is intriguing but I do not know how much time he will get unless he shines and Brad has no choice but to play him. RWII needs to step up or be gone this year, this is his time. Edwards is in for a battle and may be gone before he blinks an eye.
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Post by Vankisa Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:41 pm

I voted Other.

I do believe it hurts the chances to win a championship this year for this team to be this young - from the coach to the players. 

We saw that clearly in the Toronto and Miami series where no analyst (or Boston fan) had a doubt Boston is the more talented team and we should have won both series (ok we did win one of them). 
Lapses like the one between JB and JT which was also an unforgivable coaching mistke for me as well (you go zone with 0.5 seconds to go?!?!?) changed the Toronto series (and the playoff run for me). The Miami games where they were sometimes visibly anxious of the last 6 minutes of the game. I could go on.

The signings of TT and JT are a huge plus in that regard as they bring exactly what is lacking - more grizzled, HUNGRY veterans that want to WIN NOW. Not just play very good and pat themselves on the back.

I however, also do not believe it is an entirely BAD thing. It just closes the door to our rosy vision that Ainge has set up the Celtics to WIN NOW and then WIN LATER when he fleeced Brooklyn. Well the WIN NOW has come and gone. The Irving, Horford, Hayward plan to win now has failed, that is clear. The plan of developing our young studs however is going strong and well and that is mainly why I do not believe it is a bad thing to surround our core young guys with some more young talent to develop with them, just as long as we have some hungry veterans as well to keep the eye on the ball. I do not believe  JT,JB or Smart are ready to be mentors yet, but they are ready to follow. Just like they did this year with Kemba's attitude and leadership. I think Kemba was crucial to wipe away the "cultural stench" of the diva, but I wish we had more veterans now that can show the young studs and the rest of the other kids what it means to be HUNGRY to win.

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Post by RosalieTCeltics Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:56 pm

You mention Miami, it was Herro that kept them in one game, Duncan Robinson in another. Who knows, do we have the key to one of those like players in Nesmith???? Pritchard????? I know that I expected alot more from Edwards, I really do no know if he is going to advance, or be gone. But until I see more, I will wait and see what we have. Look at JT and JB true quality that got better and better,
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Post by RosalieTCeltics Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:56 pm

You mention Miami, it was Herro that kept them in one game, Duncan Robinson in another. Who knows, do we have the key to one of those like players in Nesmith???? Pritchard????? I know that I expected alot more from Edwards, I really do no know if he is going to advance, or be gone. But until I see more, I will wait and see what we have. Look at JT and JB true quality that got better and better,
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Post by cowens/oldschool Sun Dec 06, 2020 1:33 pm

Vankisa wrote:I voted Other.

I do believe it hurts the chances to win a championship this year for this team to be this young - from the coach to the players. 

We saw that clearly in the Toronto and Miami series where no analyst (or Boston fan) had a doubt Boston is the more talented team and we should have won both series (ok we did win one of them). 
Lapses like the one between JB and JT which was also an unforgivable coaching mistke for me as well (you go zone with 0.5 seconds to go?!?!?) changed the Toronto series (and the playoff run for me). The Miami games where they were sometimes visibly anxious of the last 6 minutes of the game. I could go on.

The signings of TT and JT are a huge plus in that regard as they bring exactly what is lacking - more grizzled, HUNGRY veterans that want to WIN NOW. Not just play very good and pat themselves on the back.

I however, also do not believe it is an entirely BAD thing. It just closes the door to our rosy vision that Ainge has set up the Celtics to WIN NOW and then WIN LATER when he fleeced Brooklyn. Well the WIN NOW has come and gone. The Irving, Horford, Hayward plan to win now has failed, that is clear. The plan of developing our young studs however is going strong and well and that is mainly why I do not believe it is a bad thing to surround our core young guys with some more young talent to develop with them, just as long as we have some hungry veterans as well to keep the eye on the ball. I do not believe  JT,JB or Smart are ready to be mentors yet, but they are ready to follow. Just like they did this year with Kemba's attitude and leadership. I think Kemba was crucial to wipe away the "cultural stench" of the diva, but I wish we had more veterans now that can show the young studs and the rest of the other kids what it means to be HUNGRY to win.

Agreed didn’t know Stevens was such a bonehead, until this years playoffs, we had more dynamic talent than both teams, but the opposing coaches got way more out of their players. An injured GH was a big detriment, with him in mid season form, even Stevens couldn’t flip that up, and we would have gotten to Finals. Lebron coasted in Finals, with our 3 wings and 2 J’s defending him, he would have had to work a lot harder both ends. Hopefully the 2 young rooks can excel at their strengths, plus a jump in our other youngins and TT added in the mix, we still could be even better. PP is a 4 year college player, hopefully that will translate to more poise and readiness.

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Post by dboss Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:07 pm

I voted other.  We got to the ECF primarily with veterans playing extended minutes.

2/5 of our starting unit or 40% was less than 100%.  

I like quality young players.  Last year, 3/4 of our 4 draft picks were below average. (Langford, Edwards and Waters) one, Grant Williams was average.  

This year we added (2) more draft picks but the quality is apparent as compared to last year's crop.  I think we have enough to be in the mix again this year.  But winning the title this season remains a long shot unless all the stars lineup in some magnificent configuration.  Here is what I see ahead. These comments anticipate that KW returns sometime after the season starts and the knee issue does not limit him come playoff time.

The Celtics are going to be a better defensive team because they added TT.  We should not see a drop off between DT and TT as our two primary centers.  RW should be our 3rd Center

The Celtics will have a better PG rotation with Kemba, Teague and Smart.

The Celtics need to put Grant Williams at PF.  At 6' 6" and zero hops and no low post moves he is being wasted at the 5 and it also limits playing time for RW. Grant can be paired with one of 3 centers.  Brad needs to come to a realization that this can work but not unless you give it some time.
Grant is not a starter level player.  

Remember, 2 non-scorers can be very effective as facilitators if you pair them with 3 scorers.  

With both GH gone and KW out we will need more offense in the starting lineup.  Smart is not an everyday starting quality PG.  He does however have experience in Brad's offense so that is a plus. The ideal replacement for Walker as a fill in is Jeff Teague.  Teague has to learn the offense but he is a veteran PG.  All NBA teams run the same actions so I assume he will quickly pick up the nuances in Brad's system.  However,  Smart could be the better all around option.

Brad is concerned with PG rotation depth, so either Smart or Teague need to come off the bench.

Here are starting 5 options until Kemba come back

Jayson, Jaylen, Daniel, Marcus and Grant Williams - issue, not enough offense with that lineup. Substitute Tristian for DT - same issue.  So if you substitute Teague for Smart - same issue, not enough offense in the lineup.

Do you see where I am going with this?  We need another shooter in the lineup.  There is only one realistic option.

The Celtics roll out their new 3 wing unit with Jayson, Jaylen and rookie Aaron Nesmith.  They pair those wings with Daniel Theis and Marcus Smart.  An alternative option would be TT and MS in there with the wings which would be a better defensive unit.  You could also start Teague at the point instead of Marcus.

The key therefore is Aaron Nesmith and his ability to come in immediately play.  He does not have to do a lot of things like handling the ball but if he is the shooter that I think that he is, I think he may be a viable option.

I do not think Brad wants to play Teague and Smart together in the starting lineup.  We need a veteran PG rotation guy.    

We do not know how the Chemistry will work with any number of combinations.  

In sum, a young guy could be the key to start the season with no Kemba Walker and no Gordon Hayward in the lineup.  Our 2 primary Centers and our Point guards are pretty much interchangeable.


Last edited by dboss on Sun Dec 06, 2020 11:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by worcester Sun Dec 06, 2020 11:06 pm

Larry Bird was awesome as a rookie. Nesmith is no Larry, but he may have enough emotional poise to surprise us pleasantly. He has the BB IQ, the height, and the shooting skills.
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Post by dboss Sun Dec 06, 2020 11:38 pm

amended to add does not limit kw in playoffs
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Post by cowens/oldschool Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:01 am

I would use Kemba the way the Heat managed Dragic, use him some, but have him fresh for the playoffs, hoping PP the 4 year college player can play to his strengths fast at the next level. Still haven’t given up on Romeo or RWill, both these guys have shown enough flashes/glimmers to give me hope if they can get it together and the light bulb goes on, they can be impactful players for us. It took Scottie Pippen a few years before he got his great sidekick game on, and Jordan didn’t win until he was 28 so I am gonna enjoy the process. We may not win it all this year, but let’s see how much improvement we can get from all our young pieces. We will have many chances to improve further around 2 J’s as they are still ascending and look how much success they already had even as relative babies. We are blessed to have such great young talent that’s gonna be around a long time.

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Post by gyso Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:07 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:I would use Kemba the way the Heat managed Dragic, use him some, but have him fresh for the playoffs, hoping PP the 4 year college player can play to his strengths fast at the next level. Still haven’t given up on Romeo or RWill, both these guys have shown enough flashes/glimmers to give me hope if they can get it together and the light bulb goes on, they can be impactful players for us. It took Scottie Pippen a few years before he got his great sidekick game on, and Jordan didn’t win until he was 28 so I am gonna enjoy the process. We may not win it all this year, but let’s see how much improvement we can get from all our young pieces. We will have many chances to improve further around 2 J’s as they are still ascending and look how much success they already had even as relative babies. We are blessed to have such great young talent that’s gonna be around a long time.

+1 Amen

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Post by worcester Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:26 am

++1
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