Boston Celtics voted team with most surprising move of the offseason by NBA exec, scout panel

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/boston-celtics-voted-team-most-100039050.html



Boston Celtics voted team with most surprising move of the offseason by NBA exec, scout panel



Justin Quinn
Fri, August 20, 2021, 5:00 AM



The Boston Celtics have been designated as the team that made the most surprising move of the offseason according to a panel of 10 NBA scouts and executives polled by ESPN in a new article by Tim Bontemps. Astute readers have likely already gleaned this is because of the absurd value the storied franchise managed to get by landing veteran point guard Dennis Schroder on a mini-mid level exception deal that impacts their cap space to the tune of $5.9 million in 2021-22.

“Two months ago, you wouldn’t have believed that would be the deal he would wind up with after what he turned down,” Bontemps reports an anonymous East executive as having said on the deal.

The only other transaction receiving multiple votes was the buyout of former Celtics point guard Kemba Walker to facilitate his move to the New York Knicks. That received two votes; the Schroder move received three.


Other moves of note receiving votes were the Portland Trail Blazers and Dallas Mavericks’ offseasons, Patty Mills signing with the Brooklyn Nets, Russell Westbrook with the Los Angeles Lakers and Chris Paul returning to the Phoenix Suns. Each garnered a single vote.


Bob
MY NOTE:  A fiery start with the Kemba/Horford trade and then, after a quiet start to the free agency signing period that scared us all because we thought "that's it?!", Brad really picked up the pace quite a bit.  Some members of this board are worried about Schroder's locker room presence.  Well, we'll see, but we should also keep in mind that LeBron and the Lakers thought highly enough about him and his locker room presence to offer him 4 years, $84M.  The decision to not take that offer was his, not the Lakers'.  It was a mistake for him, obviously, but the Lakers must have felt the loss too.  Why else would they have offered him a fat, long-term contract if they didn't value him?  A little more perspective:  the value the Lakers assigned to Dennis Schroder is more than the value the NY Knicks assigned to Evan Fournier.  I realize that James Dolan is an idiot and probably shouldn't be used as a measuring stick of anything except ignorant hubris but still, two teams set those players' fair market values and the Lakers were willing to pay Schroder more.  Salary cap and contract $ aside the Lakers were willing to pay that money when they already had LeBron and Davis with max contracts.  They wouldn't have gone for Westbrook if Schroder had resigned, Westbrook was Plan B for them.

Expensive, long-term (weak defense) Fournier out, cheap, short-term (good defense) Richardson in.  More expensive Tristan Thompson out, less expensive Enes Kanter in.  Mirror images of each other.  Expensive, unreliable and inefficient (no defense other than taking charges) Kemba out, less expensive (overall contract) better defense Horford in.  People are bemoaning the loss of Moses?  He had a good half against us.  There were two halves to that game.  He was an eye-opening newbie on a team that was built to tank.  My point is, if you look at the roster now vs 3 months ago I think you see a better roster.  Forget about the gyrations Brad went through to get to this place, look at what he hath wrought.  Even if all he does until the seasons starts is to trade a player to get down to the 15 player limit for a box of Krispy Kremes (speaking of fair market value, I know one) the roster is still better than 3 months ago.


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Our defense is going to be alot better, hopefully PP and Nesmith can get minutes and develop into reliable 3 point shooters, otherwise we may have some problems scoring….

Another brilliant analysis from the Brad Stevens anti-Heckler!

The Schroeder signing was obviously not planned, but still Brad deserves some credit for not over-committing to Fournier. Remember, many people were bemoaning Fournier signing with the Knicks, going on and on how the Celtics ended up getting nothing from the GH TPE, and thus nothing for letting GH walk. If we had signed Fournier, the money to sign Schroeder wouldn't have been there. So, though not exactly planned, good prior decision-making allowed the Celtics to pounce when luck dropped Schroder on their door step. I see the Kemba-Al thing as more of a move to clear money for next year (yes, I am being Captain Obvious here). Hopefully Al can contribute on D and as a mentor like people are envisioning, but he is 35, and will be trying to keep up with some of the most athletically gifted players on the planet, many in their prime. Even if not, the money thing justifies the move in my mind. When we initially got Moses, I had no idea who he was. After a little research while donning my green-tinted glasses, I convinced myself I was excited. However, the way some people reacting to giving him up, it seems like they were confusing Moses Brown with another big man named Moses. I like the Richardson pick-up. I even have hopes Dunn can give us some minutes of tough D. What I like most is that this seems to be a team with more clearly defined roles. Not saying we are a title team, but title teams always have clearly defined roles. I expect a good season followed by a great off-season where we not only get our 3rd star, but we get those solid, grizzled veteran ring chasers (yes, the green-tinted glasses are still on...)

gyso wrote:Shamrock,

If we had signed Fournier, the money to sign Schroeder would still would have been there.

We used the mini-MLE (tax-payer), which is always available for teams that are over the tax line or for teams that still can go over the tax line (us).

Thanks for the clarification - I should know better than to wander into cap/money issues.

That is why I defer to Gyso when it comes to all the $$$ issues!!! Between him and BobH and sometimes NYCelt, I am way over my head. I will sit back and watch the moves being made, keep my mouth shut, then pat them on the back for making good moves, or wondering why? in some cases. You are not alone here Shamrock

RosalieTCeltics wrote:That is why I defer to Gyso when it comes to all the $$$ issues!!!  Between him and BobH and sometimes NYCelt, I am way over my head.  I will sit back and watch the moves being made, keep my mouth shut, then pat them on the back for making good moves, or wondering why? in some cases.  You are not alone here Shamrock

Thanks Rosalie. After reading about how the extensions to RWIII and MS pretty much make it impossible to simply sign a top free agent, I now see that my original post was even more misguided, and that Gyso gracefully pointed out only one flaw. As someone who gets incredibly frustrated by fake news and misinformation, I feel pretty stupid...Still very happy with Brad's first offseason, and even happier with MS and RWIII locked up.

gyso wrote:

Shamrock1000 wrote:

RosalieTCeltics wrote:That is why I defer to Gyso when it comes to all the $$$ issues!!!  Between him and BobH and sometimes NYCelt, I am way over my head.  I will sit back and watch the moves being made, keep my mouth shut, then pat them on the back for making good moves, or wondering why? in some cases.  You are not alone here Shamrock

Thanks Rosalie. After reading about how the extensions to RWIII and MS pretty much make it impossible to simply sign a top free agent, I now see that my original post was even more misguided, and that Gyso gracefully pointed out only one flaw. As someone who gets incredibly frustrated by fake news and misinformation, I feel pretty stupid...Still very happy with Brad's first offseason, and even happier with MS and RWIII locked up.

Shamrock,

There's more than one way to get a 3rd star.  Many thought we were setting up our roster so that we can sign a top free agent with cap space, due to the team seemingly keeping away from any new contracts that carry past one season.  Even allowing Fournier to walk seemed to back that theory up, because at the time nothing else made any sense.  Ever since the Smart extension, that theory went right out the window.

Now it seems that they may be acquiring player contracts to trade for the 3rd star, and they are keeping out of the luxury tax in the process.  We kept from being hard-capped with the Schroder signing and there may be further trades to ensure we are not taxpayers this season.  

With that said, I believe that Brad has been told that he can go over the luxury tax line if we can get the 3rd star before the trading deadline.  It seems like the Celtics did not think Fournier was worth paying tax on, so that may have been why they let him walk.  I cannot say whether the Fournier TPE was a planned thing or was it just pure luck for Brad, but now we have a way to get another player (up to $17.1M?) that we can use in a trade and accumulate with other players, so they all add up to 125% (+\-) of the target player's salary.

So now we can trade for that elusive difference maker, the 3rd star.  We can even do it this season.  There are so many moving parts, predicting anything is guesswork at best.

This off-season, the goal for Brad and Company in regards to team salary seems to be Flexibility.

Thanks for the explanation Gyso. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like a good strategy. When a team hoards cap space to sign a top free agent, they are still at the mercy of the free agent's interest in signing there. By accumulating valuable flexible trade assets you can simply trade for that player, let him see how great the culture is, and convince him to stay. If summer comes and a top free agent wants to come, we can simply do a sign and trade with his former team. Obviously the former team would prefer that. I bet the player would also - most of these players are decent guys, and would likely be happy their old team got something back. Celtics also develop a business relationship with that former team. Additionally, if we miss on the star, we still have a solid foundation. Finally, the Celtics will be better in the meantime, making them more attractive to the grizzled veteran ring chasers teams need to win it all. Seems like a smart strategy to me

bobheckler wrote:https://www.yahoo.com/sports/boston-celtics-voted-team-most-100039050.html



Boston Celtics voted team with most surprising move of the offseason by NBA exec, scout panel



Justin Quinn
Fri, August 20, 2021, 5:00 AM



The Boston Celtics have been designated as the team that made the most surprising move of the offseason according to a panel of 10 NBA scouts and executives polled by ESPN in a new article by Tim Bontemps. Astute readers have likely already gleaned this is because of the absurd value the storied franchise managed to get by landing veteran point guard Dennis Schroder on a mini-mid level exception deal that impacts their cap space to the tune of $5.9 million in 2021-22.

“Two months ago, you wouldn’t have believed that would be the deal he would wind up with after what he turned down,” Bontemps reports an anonymous East executive as having said on the deal.

The only other transaction receiving multiple votes was the buyout of former Celtics point guard Kemba Walker to facilitate his move to the New York Knicks. That received two votes; the Schroder move received three.


Other moves of note receiving votes were the Portland Trail Blazers and Dallas Mavericks’ offseasons, Patty Mills signing with the Brooklyn Nets, Russell Westbrook with the Los Angeles Lakers and Chris Paul returning to the Phoenix Suns. Each garnered a single vote.


Bob
MY NOTE:  A fiery start with the Kemba/Horford trade and then, after a quiet start to the free agency signing period that scared us all because we thought "that's it?!", Brad really picked up the pace quite a bit.  Some members of this board are worried about Schroder's locker room presence.  Well, we'll see, but we should also keep in mind that LeBron and the Lakers thought highly enough about him and his locker room presence to offer him 4 years, $84M.  The decision to not take that offer was his, not the Lakers'.  It was a mistake for him, obviously, but the Lakers must have felt the loss too.  Why else would they have offered him a fat, long-term contract if they didn't value him?  A little more perspective:  the value the Lakers assigned to Dennis Schroder is more than the value the NY Knicks assigned to Evan Fournier.  I realize that James Dolan is an idiot and probably shouldn't be used as a measuring stick of anything except ignorant hubris but still, two teams set those players' fair market values and the Lakers were willing to pay Schroder more.  Salary cap and contract $ aside the Lakers were willing to pay that money when they already had LeBron and Davis with max contracts.  They wouldn't have gone for Westbrook if Schroder had resigned, Westbrook was Plan B for them.

Expensive, long-term (weak defense) Fournier out, cheap, short-term (good defense) Richardson in.  More expensive Tristan Thompson out, less expensive Enes Kanter in.  Mirror images of each other.  Expensive, unreliable and inefficient (no defense other than taking charges) Kemba out, less expensive (overall contract) better defense Horford in.  People are bemoaning the loss of Moses?  He had a good half against us.  There were two halves to that game.  He was an eye-opening newbie on a team that was built to tank.  My point is, if you look at the roster now vs 3 months ago I think you see a better roster.  Forget about the gyrations Brad went through to get to this place, look at what he hath wrought.  Even if all he does until the seasons starts is to trade a player to get down to the 15 player limit for a box of Krispy Kremes (speaking of fair market value, I know one) the roster is still better than 3 months ago.


.

And my $ is on Schroder playing his ass off if for no other reason but to re-up his market value. We’ll be the benefactors and thats good news. Hell, who knows, we may just want to keep him if he shows us something that tells us he is a key piece to banner 18. We win either way. Locker room cancer? They say that about anyone that has a personality and not afraid to show who they are. Not concerned about that at all.

dboss wrote:BobH makes a great point about the LAL making that offer to keep DS.

With the recent extensions for MS and RW, the Celtics are in a position to make a big trade next summer.  Their money does not kick in until next season.  Their plan is more likely to move the roster forward with them and not trade them.  The Celtics want to know for certain how good AN and PP can be and of course RW.  

A 3rd star  may not be in the cards.  It really depends on how well the team plays this coming season.  That 3rd star cannot be added with CAP space.  

The big TPE could come into play this season or next off season and could easily yield a quality player.

I read that the most Boston could offer DS next season is 120% over his current salary.  That's around $7 million so unless he flops we should expect a one and gone relationship.

dboss,

You're right about what they can offer Schroder next year, it's just 120% of his current $5.9M, which won't cut it. Can't do a sign-and-trade if the player won't sign because he wants more money. My question is "if Brad trades Schroder before the trade deadline can his new team resign him for more?". If so, then Brad can move Schroder + TPE (and/or a player) to Team #2 for a higher dollar player that is wanted by Team #3, who has the player Brad really wants.


Bob


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bobheckler wrote:

dboss wrote:BobH makes a great point about the LAL making that offer to keep DS.

With the recent extensions for MS and RW, the Celtics are in a position to make a big trade next summer.  Their money does not kick in until next season.  Their plan is more likely to move the roster forward with them and not trade them.  The Celtics want to know for certain how good AN and PP can be and of course RW.  

A 3rd star  may not be in the cards.  It really depends on how well the team plays this coming season.  That 3rd star cannot be added with CAP space.  

The big TPE could come into play this season or next off season and could easily yield a quality player.

I read that the most Boston could offer DS next season is 120% over his current salary.  That's around $7 million so unless he flops we should expect a one and gone relationship.

dboss,

You're right about what they can offer Schroder next year, it's just 120% of his current $5.9M, which won't cut it.  Can't do a sign-and-trade if the player won't sign because he wants more money.  My question is "if Brad trades Schroder before the trade deadline can his new team resign him for more?".  If so, then Brad can move Schroder + TPE (and/or a player) to Team #2 for a higher dollar player that is wanted by Team #3, who has the player Brad really wants.


Bob


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No. Bird rights can only be inherited and not created by trade. Even inheritance is restricted when you try to trade a RFA that had accepted the qualifying offer. Hence, in that scenario, the player can block the trade. I believe that this had happend with Nerlens Noel.