Will Dennis Schroder embrace Sixth Man role with Celtics?

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/dennis-schroder-embrace-sixth-man-180853779.html



Will Dennis Schroder embrace Sixth Man role with Celtics?


Chris Forsberg
Wed, September 8, 2021, 11:08 AM



The Boston Celtics stumbled into one of the best bargains of the summer when an oversaturated point guard market allowed Dennis Schroder to fall into the team's lap for the $5.9 million taxpayer midlevel.

Schroder reportedly rejected a four-year, $84 million extension from the Lakers last season with hopes of a bigger payday. Cap space evaporated quickly this summer, the Lakers moved on, and Schroder was left with few options among playoff-caliber teams.

The big question now is whether Schroder can balance a desire to reestablish his value with being an off-the-bench role player for the Celtics. Those two things seem to run counter to one another but there is the potential for a robust role in Boston if Schroder is willing to embrace the situation.

Marcus Smart, after inking the sort of four-year extension that Schroder essentially passed up, is set to be Boston’s starting point guard. The Celtics need Schroder to turn back the clock to his two-year stint with the Oklahoma City Thunder where he emerged as a Sixth Man of the Year candidate while being a combo guard that made 128 of his 144 appearances in a reserve role.

Schroder’s usage rate dipped hard in those two seasons, plummeting from a career-high 33.4 percent in his final year with Atlanta to 25.8 percent in his first season with the Thunder. But the 2019-20 season was by far the most efficient of Schroder’s career. He shot career bests at 46.9 percent from the floor and 38.5 percent beyond the 3-point arc. All while handing out 4 assists per game with a 22.3 percent assist rate that ranked in the top quarter of the league among all combo guards, per Cleaning the Glass data.

The Thunder were 8.2 points per 100 possessions better with Schroder on the court versus off. Most notably, the team’s defensive rating in his floor time was 103, then spiked to 111.8 when he was on the bench. His speed can be a factor at both ends.

Schroder needs to recognize that the most obvious pathway to his next big payday is helping the Celtics exceed expectations while embracing a team-first approach. Reports this offseason indicated that Anthony Davis and the Lakers were frustrated by Schroder’s play last season with a suggestion that he too often stepped outside his point guard role. Schroder can erase that narrative and restore his free-agent value by simply channeling his OKC days.

There is going to be ample playing time available for Schroder. He can share the floor with Smart as Ime Udoka has expressed a desire for multiple ball-handlers on the floor at the same time. Schroder will get the opportunity to quarterback reserve lineups and, given Boston’s lack of offensive weapons, will have a green light to be aggressive in those situations.

But Schroder is also maybe the only player in the Celtics core that doesn’t have some semblance of future security. Smart and Rob Williams inked extensions this summer; Jayson Tatum’s new deal kicks in this year; Jaylen Brown is already on his second pact; and Josh Richardson tacked on a year to his deal this summer. Younger players like Aaron Nesmith, Payton Pritchard, and Romeo Langford should be focused on simply establishing themselves as complementary pieces and not worrying about what comes after their rookie deals. Al Horford knows he’s a tradable asset with a partially guaranteed final season but it shouldn’t impact his on-court approach.

If Schroder buys in and rolls back the clock, the Celtics got a steal this summer. If he doesn’t, the team can still try to recoup value with an in-season trade. There should be other contenders intrigued by Schroder as a potential in-season pickup. Alas, his impending free-agent status won’t bring back much in return.

Again, the best result for both sides is getting Schroder to buy fully into the sixth man role. Schroder might have misplayed his cards last season but there’s a chance to shuffle the deck if he can keep the focus on the team this season.


Bob
MY NOTE:  The assumption made by Forsberg is that Schroder will come off the bench.  That is not set in stone, in my opinion.  He could start with Smart, JB, JT and RWill but, no matter what, this signing was an absolute coup for Brad.  At the minimum, worst case, he's valuable trade talent.  At best he's our Lou Williams/Jamal Crawford.  Heads we win, tails we still win.  What blows my mind is that I just cannot wrap my mind around the thought that there was no other team in the NBA that would offer Dennis Schroder $5.9M.  If I'm right, and that's just so unbelievably cheap it's a no-brainer, then that says a few things to me.  One, Brad is one helluva salesman, and that's great for us looking ahead to years with him as our GM.  Two, this team is looking even better than a lot of us are thinking it is because it turned Schroder's head when he could have signed with a lot of NBA teams (just not the Lakers) for $5.9M.  We're the pick of his litter, if you will.  He saw his best opportunity to shine with us.  Think Daryl Morey and Doc wouldn't have loved to have him come off their bench?  If Milwaukee is willing to give Tremont Waters a chance you don't think they'd see Schroder as a significant upgrade?  Who's Indiana's starting point guard?  Brogdon?  TJ McConnell?  C'mon, Schroder is better than either of them.


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Bob, I agree that Forsberg may be jumping the gun with his seemingly concrete thoughts that Schroder will come of the bench. Marcus Smart has come off the bench for most of his Celtics career, and could certainly do so again. I think that it all will depend upon which group Schroder fits in better with and that will be determined in training camp.

I saw Forsberg pushing an even more extreme version of this take in some talking head segment - basically saying Schroeder is a huge risk because 1) he won't accept a 6th man role 2) he will try to pad his stats to get a big payday and 3) Anthony Davis felt like Schroeder didn't give him the ball enough. I generally like Forsberg, but this is a weird take. As Bob said, Schroeder could very well start. Also, he showed he can thrive as a 6th man even if he doesn't. Would also expect him to be on his best behavior (his agent will certainly explain petulance is no way to attract a big contract). Also, if Schroeder was finding the open man in LA rather than force feeding Davis, that's fine with me. Finally, we signed a 20 million/year player for 5.9. Enough said. Seems like someone is thinking too hard about a no brainer.

Hi,
Sorry, but I still think that there's something in Schröder's closet that brought him to Boston for just $5.9M besides the market situation, of course.
Very hard to believe that a FA of such caliber decides to go to Boston for a measly MLE.
But, as everybody here, I hope he'll put his best performance this season regardless if he starts or goes off the bench.

AK

Bob,  I agree that Forsberg may be jumping the gun with his seemingly concrete thoughts that Schroder will come off the bench.  Marcus Smart has come off the bench for most of his Celtics career, and could certainly do so again.  I think that it all will depend upon which group Schroder fits in better with and that will be determined in training camp.

sinus,

I would guess that Schroder would fully expecting to put forth his best this year no matter which team he had signed with because he has to have dollar signs in his eyes for 2022-2023 and beyond.

Money is an awesome motivating factor, and especially when his next contract could be his last opportunity to hit the home run type of contact. A four or five year giant contract for next season will take him into his early to mid 30s, and he may not be good enough at that point to get another whopping contact (for whatever reasons possibly injuries).

He also knows that his next contract will also be determined by how well he "fits in" with the Cs as no team next year will want to give him a huge contract if he comes off as prima donna.

With these thoughts, I am predicting that he plays near top level defense, moves the ball, doesn't complain about touches of shots and hustles all season for the Celtics as he has just too much to lose if he doesn't perform in these areas for Boston.

Sometimes things are reported but you do not know for certain if they are true.  It has been reported that the Celtics did not promise Schroder a starting job.  That remains an unconfirmed report.

However we actually heard Ime Udoka talking about putting the ball in the hands of Marcus Smart. The Celtics followed that up with a nice 4 year extension.  By all accounts, Marcus will be the starting PG on opening day.  He is being task with getting the ball to Jayson and Jaylen as well as our center and our shooting guard.  As long as he executes that role he will be the starting PG

Dennis Schroder and Marcus Smart have a few things in common.  Both of them are poor 3 point shooters (32% Smart and 33.7% for Schroder)  Both are 6' 3"  point guards.  Both are know to be pesky defenders and Smart is a real high level defender.

There may be times when both of them are on the court together when coach Udoka is looking to apply maximum defensive pressure or when we need another quality ball handler.

If Dennis Schroder is looking to attract a better offer next season you would expect that he would be on his best behavior.  He is good enough to be our starting PG and he is good enough to come off the bench as a 6th man.  

Marcus has played behind Rondo, IT, Kyrie and Kemba Walker.  This is a big opportunity for him to prove that he is more than a solid defender and more than a guy who has lacked the discipline to curb his appetite for taking 3 point shots.  Throughout his career Marcus has taken more 3 point shots than 2 point shots.  That must change this year.

Schroder off the bench makes good sense especially if AH plays the role as our backup 5.  They played together in Atlanta and should be very comfortable pairing up again in Boston.

I would love to see the Celtics start Aaron Nesmith at the 2.  Josh Richardson has a lot more experience.  However his shooting numbers in terms of being a reliable 3 point shooter have trended down for 3 years in a row.  I have watched a lot of film on his shooting.  His shot looks a lot like that of Dennis Schroder but maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me.  The bottom line is a need to have a reliable 3 point shooter in the lineup with the Jays and non shooter Marcus Smart.

Ime will have to figure out what works and fans should give him the space to do that.

AN starting or coming off the bench is sure to have a significant role on a team that parted with 2 dynamic scorers.

Likewise, PP cannot be overlooked because he shoots the ball really well.  

Training camp in 3 weeks and our first preseason game will be on Oct 4th vs The Magic.

As I have said before, I would much rather see Schroeder come off the bench, Smart play the 2, and PP start at point. Unless starting Schroeder guarantees a real shot at a title this year, I see no point to acclimating our young players and likely future core players with a fifth player that we know for certain will not be back. Let him come off the bench where he can be the second scoring option (assuming one of the Js is on the floor most of the time) and he can show off his skills for his next team, and help to make our bench a strong point rather than a weakness. A bench led by Schroeder, Richardson, and Horford can be a very powerful weapon. The starters of PP, Smart, the Js, and RWill would be a well balanced crew this year and next and they would bond as a team more. It's a team, not a collection of players.

Starting Nesmith at the 2? Now? No way.

I think we will see some lineups with Marcus and PP but I do not think it they will be in the starting lineup on opening day. Something extraordinary would have to happen over the next 30 days or so for them to renege on their commitment to put the ball in the hands of Marcus Smart.

Ktron wrote:Starting Nesmith at the 2? Now? No way.

You are probably right about that but Josh better find his stroke early and often.

dboss wrote:I think we will see some lineups with Marcus and PP but I do not think it they will be in the starting lineup on opening day.  Something extraordinary would have to happen over the next 30 days or so for them to renege on their commitment to put the ball in the hands of Marcus Smart.

Whether Smart is the 2 or 1 and PP is the 1 or 2 makes no real difference. They can both handle the ball. But PP brings a better perimeter threat than anyone else on the team right now. We don't have a Rondo or CP3 on the team so no real floor general. But Smart and PP together bring a strong combination of skills that complement the other three.

atcross wrote:

dboss wrote:I think we will see some lineups with Marcus and PP but I do not think it they will be in the starting lineup on opening day.  Something extraordinary would have to happen over the next 30 days or so for them to renege on their commitment to put the ball in the hands of Marcus Smart.

Whether Smart is the 2 or 1 and PP is the 1 or 2 makes no real difference. They can both handle the ball. But PP brings a better perimeter threat than anyone else on the team right now. We don't have a Rondo or CP3 on the team so no real floor general. But Smart and PP together bring a strong combination of skills that complement the other three.

We will see if Ime decides to go ina different direction.  I never liked Smart as a shooting guard.  Defensively, great but shooting?  Forget about it.

dboss wrote:

atcross wrote:

dboss wrote:I think we will see some lineups with Marcus and PP but I do not think it they will be in the starting lineup on opening day.  Something extraordinary would have to happen over the next 30 days or so for them to renege on their commitment to put the ball in the hands of Marcus Smart.

Whether Smart is the 2 or 1 and PP is the 1 or 2 makes no real difference. They can both handle the ball. But PP brings a better perimeter threat than anyone else on the team right now. We don't have a Rondo or CP3 on the team so no real floor general. But Smart and PP together bring a strong combination of skills that complement the other three.

We will see if Ime decides to go ina different direction.  I never liked Smart as a shooting guard.  Defensively, great but shooting?  Forget about it.

Then think of PP as the "shooting guard". Apparently these designations are meaningless in today's game anyway. With the Js and PP on the floor you have three of five that can definitely shoot. With the superior defense of Smart and RWill you have a well balanced team that will possibly be playing together for a few years.

Question; Will Dennis Schroder embrace Sixth Man role with Celtics?

Answer; I believe he's left himself no choice.

He knows he gave up major money and needs a season to showcase himself and raise his value. He'll probably be first guard off the bench/sixth man in relief of Smart and Richardson. I think he'll be grateful for the chance.

atcross wrote:

dboss wrote:

atcross wrote:

dboss wrote:I think we will see some lineups with Marcus and PP but I do not think it they will be in the starting lineup on opening day.  Something extraordinary would have to happen over the next 30 days or so for them to renege on their commitment to put the ball in the hands of Marcus Smart.

Whether Smart is the 2 or 1 and PP is the 1 or 2 makes no real difference. They can both handle the ball. But PP brings a better perimeter threat than anyone else on the team right now. We don't have a Rondo or CP3 on the team so no real floor general. But Smart and PP together bring a strong combination of skills that complement the other three.

We will see if Ime decides to go ina different direction.  I never liked Smart as a shooting guard.  Defensively, great but shooting?  Forget about it.

Then think of PP as the "shooting guard". Apparently these designations are meaningless in today's game anyway. With the Js and PP on the floor you have three of five that can definitely shoot. With the superior defense of Smart and RWill you have a well balanced team that will possibly be playing together for a few years.

The Celtics should be a top defensive team.  I am hoping that their offense will be equally potent.

NYCelt wrote:Question; Will Dennis Schroder embrace Sixth Man role with Celtics?

Answer; I believe he's left himself no choice.

He knows he gave up major money and needs a season to showcase himself and raise his value. He'll probably be first guard off the bench/sixth man in relief of Smart and Richardson. I think he'll be grateful for the chance.

That's how I see it.

Smart, Richardson, Brown, Tatum and Horford/Robert Williams to start games. I'm still on the fence with Al and Rob, but if the theme is "go with the veterans in the starting lineup", then it is Al, with Rob being the first big off the bench.

I can't wait to see this actually play out in a game.

I'm willing to bet RWill starts (assuming healthy).  He just signed a big extension.  He's a valuable trade asset (especially with 5 years of contract to go.  That was an extension while he was still under contract for 2021-2022, it wasn't him signing as a RFA), if it gets to that (Hello, Bradley Beal?).

If he stays in green, then we want to accelerate his development, and we want to do it while we have Horford on the team (this could be the last year for that, maybe he'll be here next year too.  Maybe.).  That means, assuming he can stay healthy, he needs court time against the best the league has to offer.  That means starting.

If he doesn't stay in green then we need to play and develop him to showcase him.

Horford might start alongside RWill if Ime wants to go big (e.g. vs Embiid and Drummond, assuming Drummond starts too.  Certainly no guarantee there) but otherwise I expect him to do solid rotation player minutes off the bench.

Al's smart enough to see the future, and it isn't him.


Bob


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bobheckler wrote:I'm willing to bet RWill starts (assuming healthy).  He just signed a big extension.  He's a valuable trade asset (especially with 5 years of contract to go.  That was an extension while he was still under contract for 2021-2022, it wasn't him signing as a RFA), if it gets to that (Hello, Bradley Beal?).

If he stays in green, then we want to accelerate his development, and we want to do it while we have Horford on the team (this could be the last year for that, maybe he'll be here next year too.  Maybe.).  That means, assuming he can stay healthy, he needs court time against the best the league has to offer.  That means starting.

If he doesn't stay in green then we need to play and develop him to showcase him.

Horford might start alongside RWill if Ime wants to go big (e.g. vs Embiid and Drummond, assuming Drummond starts too.  Certainly no guarantee there) but otherwise I expect him to do solid rotation player minutes off the bench.

Al's smart enough to see the future, and it isn't him.


Bob


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I agree. But I would apply the same logic to PP/Schroeder/Richardson. PP is a much better 3pt shooter than Richardson now. And Smart, the Js, and RWill are all very good defenders. In the event the other team's backcourt is much bigger and hurting us we can always bring Richardson in off the bench early to counter. No matter how good Schroeder proves to be he is a short timer. He's going to want the spotlight and he can do that better when he's not sharing the court with both Js. And I would hope that at every opportunity we would get minutes for Langford and Neesmith too. Does anybody seriously think this team is ready to win a championship this year? Get the young players as many minutes as possible PLAYING TOGETHER this year and we can start making bets on that question next year.

dboss wrote:

Ktron wrote:Starting Nesmith at the 2? Now? No way.

You are probably right about that but Josh better find his stroke early and often.

Or else!