This team needs to blow it up too

RWill has no game accept catching lobs, his own coach doesn’t trust him in a tight end of game. All he does is pass and lately he’s been a turnover machine because the defense has figured him out to play the pass because unless he’s catching lobs, he’s got nothing, can barely dribble. How can a guy that tall with that kind of jumping ability never score on a post up his whole career or even on a switch with a smaller player on him?

Marcus Smart has no offense, it’s always an adventure for him to hit a simple shot or lay up. He’s tough, but for every great defensive play, he makes more boneheaded offensive plays and is a constant brick layer that kills us. Al has no shot, it’s not falling anymore, they are giving him 3’s , just like Smart and he can’t hit them. His defense has also been exposed lately, especially on the perimeter. I would trade those 3 for Turner, Sabonis and Lavert in a heartbeat. Unfortunately not gonna happen. So pathetic the coach doesn’t trust RWill, actually can’t blame him, only 6 turnovers tonight, like I said they figured him out; then we get stuck with Al, who I like, but is just too old at this stage of his career.

Meanwhile Moses Brown had 9 points 7 rebounds and 2 blocks in 12 minutes. That’s 18 points and 14 rebounds and 4 blocks in 24 minutes I believe, right bob heckler. Not bad, and here’s the biggie, he went 7-8 from the line; so all this time when we didn’t see him on the floor, he was working on his weakness.

And while we’re at it, can we get rid of the amateur training staff. We used to know the name Ed Lacerte and Bryan Doo, how come no one knows one name on this training staff? They are obviously a bunch of amateurs that are so bad not one article describing any treatment or a name of what they are working on or who they are? Pathetic is how they further injured Jaylen, when they were supposed to be healing a one to 2 week injury.

Well I asked for 4-1 for this West Coast swing and I'm going to get 1-4. If this road trip doesn't scream for Brad to do exactly as the title of this thread suggests, then Brad needs to go as well. At this pace it will take 5-6 years to even build a contender and by that time both J's will be long gone. Danny took us from worst to first in a year. This rebuild has dragged on forever. It ain't working and is not going to work any time soon.

It's a huge risk but you will never know what your decisions amount to until it's too late and you don't even make the playoffs or you are bounced out in the first round.

I agree with everything you've said, cowens/oldschool. Get Brad on the horn and talk him into all of it.

db

Plus we can't wait too much longer to make a deal because we're coming up on about the 1/3 mark of the season.  I'm sure Brad is taking a long, hard look at IND and others.  This (These) move(s) could make him or break him right out of the shoot.  

db

The dumbest move was getting rid of young developing stud baby 7 footer Moses, the kid was on a great cheap contract, he can actually score in the post over other bigs, RWill can’t do that. I like JRich, but I would have rather had Moses, especially with the fragility of RWill and Al.

Hard to build a future around Center By Committee.

db

dbrown4 wrote:Hard to build a future around Center By Committee.  

db

Al is strictly stop gap to get rid of Kemba, he can help a little in spurts, no long term future here. RWill is as fragile as can be, flashes of a Rodman, but are just flashes as we can’t ever rely on his day after day in availability. This training staff hasn’t been able to get him to normal over a period of time like the whole season ever. Jaylen obviously got reinjured, great just great….

Trade availability, Player by player:

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/boston-celtics/cap/

Jayson Tatum: No restrictions.

Al Horford: No restrictions.

Jaylen Brown: No restrictions.

Juan Hernangomez: No restrictions.

Romeo Langford: No restrictions.

Aaron Nesmith: No restrictions.

Grant Williams: No restrictions.

Payton Pritchard: No restrictions.

Bruno Fernando: No restrictions.

Enes Kanter Freedom: Trade Restriction: This player cannot be traded until Dec 15, 2021.

Dennis Schröder: Trade Restriction: This player cannot be traded until Dec 15, 2021.

Josh Richardson: Trade Restriction: This player cannot be traded until Jan 07, 2022.

Jabari Parker: Trade Restriction: This player cannot be traded until Jan 19, 2022.

Marcus Smart: Trade Restriction: This player cannot be traded until Jan 25, 2022.

Robert Williams III: Trade Restriction: This player cannot be traded until Jul 01, 2022.

My note: For those in a hurry to blow it all up, this may actually take some time.

I'm looking at you:

I didn’t say I’d get rid of everybody….

Interesting to note that with the exception of Smart, the players that might have the most trade value have no restriction. Two more are free to deal next week.

I'm not suggesting anything will happen yet, but decision time is coming. If we insist on retaining all of our most prized assets, Tatum, Brown and Smart, we may need to face the extended mediocrity the Bulls went through in the decade following Jordan's final departure. They had a team with Noah and others that was always just a step away, but couldn't quite get there. Several seasons in a row, it was the same story; the Bulls are almost there. Retaining our top three at the cost of a more balanced roster might just have the same effect.

Right now we're still in a position that a good week or two and we're contending for the lead in the Atlantic. Too soon, I think, to look for anything drastic. The health of RWIII has been a big question, and I believe that Brown has now joined the often injured issue. The team (and us fans) may be over valuing assets, but we'll see.

If the West Coast trip ends and some home cooking fixes things, most of this squad may stay intact through the season. If not, the pressure to make a radical fix may mount for a historically significant franchise that has won just one title over the past 35 years.

cowens/oldschool wrote:I didn’t say I’d get rid of everybody….

I don't think anyone thinks that.  Sorry if you thought I did.

I think that something has to happen.  This is beginning to look like last season, with the lack of any kind of 48 minute effort, game to game.  I think we are past change for the sake of change.

I tried to find an article that listed all of the dates of player trade availability and couldn't find one.  I stumbled onto the Trade Restrictions (for Marcus Smart) on the Spotrac site and decided to create a complete list of what I found there and post it in this thread.  I listed every player just as a means to have a complete list and put the restrictions in chronical order.

I also just had to add the picture because I wanted to inject some humor into the post.  I'm weird that way.  I did specifically look for Wiley and TNT and that image was the first result.

cowens/oldschool wrote:Meanwhile Moses Brown had 9 points 7 rebounds and 2 blocks in 12 minutes. That’s 18 points and 14 rebounds and 4 blocks in 24 minutes I believe, right bob heckler. Not bad, and here’s the biggie, he went 7-8 from the line; so all this time when we didn’t see him on the floor, he was working on his weakness.

Cow,

With the inclusion of last night's game Moses Brown is now averaging 2.4ppg, 1.6rpg and 66.7% from the line so far this season.  He is averaging 0.0apg and .4TO/game.  He has had zero assists this year.  Zero.  Last year in OKC he had a total of 10 assists all season and 42 turnovers.

But we shouldn't read too much into all this since Moses Brown has only played a grand freaking total of 46 minutes so far this season.  This is despite his playing in 10 games and even starting in one.  46.  So he had a good 12 minutes (which means he had only played in 34 minutes in 9 games before last night).  Great.  Congratulations.  Whoopadeefuckingdoo.  Now do it a couple more times, kid, and maybe we'll start thinking of you like a potential rotation player instead of as a waste of physical talent.

Brad traded Moses Brown for Josh Richardson.  Josh Richardson is a player.  I don't know if he'll remain on this team, or even if he should, but he's an NBA player that has trade value.  Moses isn't and doesn't, at least not yet.  He's played a total of 999 NBA minutes, 920 of which were last year in OKC after they benched Horford.  His 3rd year in the NBA and he played a total of 79 minutes in two out of those 3.  OKC traded Horford (understandable since they're going with a full rebuild) but then they also traded the center who they gave all those minutes to.  Moses Brown was a throw-in for the Horford-Kemba trade, and they immediately bought Kemba out.  So they didn't even want Kemba, they just wanted to get rid of Al and was willing to give away Moses Brown to make it happen.  Not exactly a vote of confidence by Sam Presti, is it?  And Jason Kidd isn't impressed either.

And, yes, your math was right when you doubled Brown's production. Doesn't mean he'd have maintained that level of production, he had 2 fouls in those 12 minutes too and might have gotten sat, but the math was correct.


Bob

.

More:

I've always believed that the roster at the beginning of the season would not be the roster at the end of the season. Some of these additions would be no more than mere assets for the path forward. That's cold, but some of the current roster are just means to an end.

Now we know the timing of some of those assets and how long we may have to wait for needed change.

We may have been hoping for change from within, but it ain't happening.

Bob your gonna eat your words as we will have no reliable center option going forward and long term this kid will be getting better and better….

cowens/oldschool wrote:Bob your gonna eat your words as we will have no reliable center option going forward and long term this kid will be getting better and better….

Cowens,

Maybe. I've been known to be wrong before, but right now Moses is an end-of-bench bubble player.

We have Pritchard, Nesmith, Romeo and Grant. That's plenty of youth. I realize none of them are true bigs, especially with Grant now playing at the weight and position he should be playing at (and not the weight and position Brad wanted him to play at) but that's a lot of youth on a team that hopes to go deep into the playoffs.

Who knows? Maybe Brad will trade Romeo for him. I think he can do better than that but maybe.

Still, let's keep an eye on him, shall we?


Bob


.

If Boston managed to win 114-111 last night, which was a real possibility, we would not be pulling our hair out.

I am going to be the voice of reason.

Calm the f down. We will not be blowing this team up. Some roster moves are needed but we knew this going into the season. Did anybody out there really believe that Brad assembled a championship contender?

We are what our record says we are. Nothing more and nothing less. 13 wins and 13 losses.

Hey dboss,

I understand where you're coming from. I'm not as much for blowing this team up as I am confounded as to how long this is taking to be a contender given past history. My only two frames of reference are the 2007-08 team (vs. the 2006-07 team) and the 80's Celtics (and Lakers at the same time for that matter). I won't even touch the 60's.

Can you imagine how the 80's would have looked if this current team was dropped in its place?! Do you think Larry Bird would have waited for 4-5 years, possibly more just to get into position to start winning championships? Do you think Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett would have taken 4-5 years just to get themselves into position to consistently make runs at the Finals?

We are giving this current team (and mainly the two J's and Marcus Smart) a whole lot of rope. Years of rope. Far, far more rope than we gave the 2008 team and the entire 80's team(s). The expectations in the previous two cases were extremely high and immediate and we were rewarded out the wazoo.

I think if anything we should be extremely concerned about where things are and the pace at which it is being executed. I'm not really sure what we are holding in terms of cards. Now we had a huge blow up this summer from top to bottom. So I can easily grant a little leeway. However the results of that blowup seem to have produced no change in direction. The 2007-08 team saw a huge blowup coming into that season. The NBA saw a huge blowup in the early 80's and we and the Lakers were the biggest beneficiaries.

I just want to know what's changed. How (and why) have we gone from high, immediate year-over-year expectations to now moving through quicksand accepting mediocre performances accompanied by excuse after excuse for those performance as the new norm?

I certainly don't want to be in Brad's seat. It may be hotter than Danny led Brad to believe with the promotion. But he's going to make one of the two choices available. He may have already made it. Either blow up the team or hold on to what you've got and build around it with a winning supporting cast from there. It just appears that 4-5 years of these 3 guys playing together with many supporting casts has us at .500 and no real sign of turning the corner.

The NBA athlete has a very short shelf life, 4.5 years I think. Our 3 guys have been together now past that average. I'm thinking the blow up option is more in the forefront than we may want to believe, that's all.

db

db

We have short memories but before our debacle last year we made it to 3 ECF. We have not been a .500 for 4-5 years. It just seems that way.

The team finds itself in the current situation because of tough decisions that had to be made along with a few miscalculations.

Everybody complained about not having enough veterans so Brad adds 5 veterans to the team. Now we complain that the kids are not getting enough opportunity to play and develop.

The veterans that were added are all flawed offensively. Like last year we have been hit with injury and sickness. The most disturbing of which is the Jaylen Brown hamstring injury. Someone on the medical staff should be terminated. Jaylen was not ready to come back. I'm sure he wanted to play but he clearly was not ready.

You would think that after his first game back they would have said nope, he is not ready yet. After that first game he said it got a little tight. In the second game he really looked hurt limping around the court. Day to day now can turn into weeks and as we can see this team desperately needs him.

Things have dragged on mainly because of some errors in judgment that Danny Ainge made. The residual effect is still with us. So yes it is going to take more time to get the right pieces in place.

There will be changes made to the supporting cast. It may not happen until next summer but it is going to happen. I still do not envision the Jays being split up.

At this point my expectations are on neutral but I am not remotely close to advocating that the team gets blown up.

I don’t think anyone wants to split up J’s, but say Schroder leaves as everyone says he will, well we will be extremely lacking in the backcourt and our bigs are going to have to be upgraded sooner or later, like by next season. So either way we are gonna need a lot of improvements from within and new pieces. Schroder and Al will be gone most likely.

The Lakers veteran talent proved to be the better team against the C's. The Clippers young talent with veteran injuries proved to be the same.  Team chemistry is often poisoned by a losing record and I think our defense showed that in the back to back loss against the Clippers.

In defense of RWill after 6 turnovers against the Clippers he is still averaging only 1.3 turnovers per game this year. RWill is a keeper for me. Cow, I too wish Moses Brown had stayed with us.

Rookie Brandon Boston, Memphis' 51st pick, smoked Smart with 27 points and 4 steals.

Which leads me to say draft picks are important. In hindsight Ainge's trade for the Unnamable from Cleveland was a mistake. In hindsight the trade for Kemba with Charlotte was a mistake. Charlotte and Cleveland both have better records than us. At the time I thought they were both good trades, especially for the Unnamable. The jury is still out on whether his poisonous narcissism will take down Brooklyn. I suspect it may. But besides the Beard and Durant they do have depth; they may weather that storm.

Ime has bought in to giving Marcus minutes to become a point guard at the expense of Pritchard and Nesmith getting much needed minutes. Pritchard has been streaky this year, I think his facial fracture has been a factor. He is a first class shooter but I doubt a starting point guard.

Schröder is a very good point but as has been pointed out he's likely not to be here. Bob, I'll have to add that to your post, I'd take Schröder.

I hear 20 year old 6'5" Juhann Begarin is spotty in France this year. It was wise to leave him there but I believe he could be an NBA talent. His summer league play showed great potential.

dboss wrote:db

The veterans that were added are all flawed offensively.  Like last year we have been hit with injury and sickness.  The most disturbing of which is the Jaylen Brown hamstring injury.  Someone on the medical staff should be terminated.  Jaylen was not ready to come back.  I'm sure he wanted to play but he clearly was not ready.

You would think that after his first game back they would have said nope, he is not ready yet.  After that first game he said it got a little tight.  In the second game he really looked hurt limping around the court.  Day to day now can turn into weeks and as we can see this team desperately needs him.  

Absolutely dboss. Medical staff at fault.

I agree dboss. Just buckle up, hope the injury gods behave for us and see where we end up. This team will change and Brad has done well with what he's been given so far.

We'll never know what Brad is up to until an announcement is made (or not). There have been some unfortunate errors made. This organization has also had 2 tragic events within 7-8 years of each other that were flat out devastating. It just looks like at this point it has been a lot of wheel spinning for whatever reason but the result is the same...less than a spectacular product on the court. The games are fun to watch and we're in all of them. But the product seems to like the fence and prefers remaining on it.

Brad's new to the role. Ime's new to the role. I can see some considerable ramp up, baptism by fire learning curves for both of them as leaders in this organization. Maybe Boston has spoiled us over all these years. Maybe winning a championship is as hard as it looks.

I don't want to see the J's split up either. I just know the clock is ticking with each passing day. If not the J's then it's the supporting cast that has to get right and jell sooner rather than later.

For the 80's it was two guys that changed everything about professional basketball, yet they were new to the league and fresh out of college. 2007-08 was bringing together 3 experienced players that very wisely checked their respective egos at the door. The current team has had 3 players playing together for 4-5 years now, they've made it to the ECF 3 times but have now regressed to first round playoff fodder.

I don't know what the answer is. Celtic basketball at .500 is not a place you want to linger around for very long. It's not good for the organization nor the fans. As we always say on this site, "Let's see what happens." It's a multimillion dollar game of chess going on everyday.

db

All I'm saying is as long as this has taken to assemble and get to this point given past history not only of the Celtics but of other teams turning things around in shorter order, the return on investment from the extra time granted needs to blow us out the door. i.e. we need to come out of all this looking like the GSW of the mid-2010's, the Celtics from 2007-2010 sans the Kendrick Perkins injury in Game 5 of the 2010 Finals, or even better the 1960's!! Ok, If I had to choose and had a gun to my head, I'd take the 60's!!

db

bygone excellent post, believe me I want RWill to succeed and be the best version of himself, but this team has so many other issues too. Ainge tried and at the time, I agreed with his moves, but the Kyrie and Kemba moves so backfired. Then even smaller moves like Tristian Thompson also didn’t work. I think the one strength and still bright spot is the 2 J’s, either one going to another franchise could take that franchise over the top. We just have to be patient and see how things unfold again once Jaylen comes back if this joke of a staff can ever get him healthy.

Hi guys, I have not posted for a while, mostly due to very busy schedule but also in part because I have nothing good/positive to say about this team.

Here is a simple fact for you - I have stopped watching games, even the ones we win. I just consider the free time better spend in ANY of my other hobbies/interests.
This is something I myself realized (somewhat surprised myself with it) the other day when I had the time and wanted to watch the Laker game recording. I could not make myself start it. Then I told myself - "ok, let's at least watch the Portland  game, we won that one.". And I could not make myself start that either.

Something is seriously wrong with this team. Going back in my recollection this feeling - that they are not trying, not working hard enough, not playing together - goes ALL the way back to at least that fateful game 4 against Toronto. They never seemed to be the same in those payoffs since that game. And in the 2 season after they have had frankly speaking no real chemistry or high team spirit. Perhaps it was not just the game 4, but the whole experience in that closed off space there. Smart has indicated it was when Brad more or less threw the towel and some players (JR and JB in particular) have not had the same level of commitment to the team since.
They have NOT been fun to watch for me last season. They are NOT fun to watch for me right now. ME balling, Complete lack of effort in random stretches that sometimes go for quarter(S), lack of focus and desire to pay defense... I have seriously had more fun with the Brad teams that featured Crawford as the PG tbh. They had effort and were playing to win and win together. Even if they were a much closer to the G-league than our current roster is.

Not to make my post very long I think Cow has it right. I think one or more of the CORE of this team needs to go.
Yes JT and JB are included in this. Jaylen is my favorite player in the NBA and I think JT has an unlimited potential as a player. But I think the catalyst we were saying we need last season...and after last season has not been enough. Cast has been changed. Coach AND GM have been changed. I challenge you guys to watch a Celtics game from last season around game 15-20 for comparison. Nothing seems to have changed in my opinion.

And after everything else has changed that has to come entirely on the Smart, Tatum and Brown shoulders. I think the "blow it up" will come by trading one of those for a better fitting piece. My bet is on Smart here. But I have no clue what the problem with the chemistry of this team is and I think if it is JT or JB, Brad should start planning for all star swaps already.

My 2c of course