Looking Past the Exhibition Season toward the Final 2011-2012 Celtics Roster

Got home at 2:00 a.m. from a trip to see my granddaughter graduate from film school. As luck would have it, Comcast was just beginning a re-broadcast of the Celtics-Toronto game. What's a little more lost sleep when Celtics basketball's on the air?

As other have suggested, the early news ranges from "the jury's still out" to "pretty promising." Ray, K.G. and Rondo don't seem to have lost anything based on very early returns. Their timing could have been better in spots, and that will be the case before long. The fact that Rondo tried a few things that didn't pan out didn't dismay me at all because it just meant that he's pushing the envelope early and often.

I liked the guts of Moore (he seems to have Celtics panache), and I think Dooling's another one who, if his timing and chemistry with teammates had been in midseason form, would have pulled off even more nifty plays. Jermaine seemed pretty mobile, and his pick-and-roll expertise should offer a nice complement to the primarily outside games of the Three Amigos. I also think he disrupted more opponents' shots than he got credit for. The big question I have is, assuming he escapes serious injury (a huge assumption), how many minutes per game he'll be able to provide his top effort. I'd like to see the Celtics vets try to sweet talk Joel Pryzbilla into putting off his infatuation with his kids for one more year. He's supposed to make a decision after Christmas. He would be another part-timer at best, but he could add veteran knowhow, size, bulk, and six fouls to the center by committee plan.

What most caught my eye, in the few minutes they played together was the duo of Wilcox and Bass—Mr. Inside and Mr. Outside, and both thumpers on the boards and pretty good in transition. If there are relatively few real centers starting around the league, there are even fewer coming off the bench. Put these two guys together, and they could cause some serious damage as the 5 and 4 of the second unit. Another key to the center-by=committee strategy.

It was nice to see Doc throw the kids into the fire and to see them persist. I do think the Celtics should have lost if Bargnani hadn't missed a bunny at the buzzer.

I hope Quis is able to withstand the rigors of a 66-game season and the playoffs because his is exactly the kind of calming influence, defensive stalwart, and multi-faceted slashing weapon the bench needs. However, he's not really a consistent long-range threat, and I would prefer that he play SG because (1) he'll probably suffer less wear-and-tear there and (2) he can match up very favorably with second-tier shooting guards.

As a full-fledged SF with good defensive skills, outside shooting capabilities, and championship savoir faire, I nominate James Posey. I think his and the current Celtics needs would be a good fit for one another. At age 34, he might have slowed down a bit, but I believe he could be an ideal backup for Paul for 15 minutes a game. I would hope he could reprise the very singular defensive and offensive roles he played during our championship season, without being called upon to take a lot of pounding down low.

He's making $7.5 million this season, and the veteran's minimum would be gravy for him while he maintains the opportunity to maintain visibility in anticipation of next season's free agent frenzy. And what better visibility than the familiar setting in which he prospered so greatly three years ago? He was amnestied by the Pacers and has cleared waivers, making him a free agent. The Knicks were after him, but they seem to have gone in another direction with the acquisition of Baron Davis.

I could live with a rotation of the following:

Center: Jermaine, Pryzbilla, Wilcox (and maybe Bass on occasion)
Power forward: KG, Bass (and maybe Wilcox or Posey on occasion)
Small forward: Pierce, Posey (and maybe Quis on occasion)
Shooting guard: Ray, Quis (and maybe Moore on occasion)
Point guard: Rondo, Dooling

With the rest of the roster (pick three from the group of Bradley, JJJ, Stiemsma and Sasha) performing spot duty as appropriate.

Rebuttals welcomed.

Sam


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Re: Looking Past the Exhibition Season toward the Final 2011-2012 Celtics Roster

New post by swedeinestonia Today at 16:05
I agree with what you are saying about Posey.

I do not think he is the Holy Graal and the reason for losing after his departure but I think he can play the role he had on the championship team and do it better than "anybody else out there that is available".

The Hornets and Pacers wanted something else from him so I would not judge by his performance there, he is not a go to guy, he is a role player/glue guy.

IF they can get him, go for it. If he plays with the second unit he will get the slashing from Quis so he can take care of spreading the floor. As a matter of fact Quis looked rather good from 3 last year so I think he will be a very pleasant factor this year in general.

Dooling/Quis/Posey/Wilcox/Bass would make for a nice second unit with plenty of scrapping ability to just straight outhustle opponents.

_________________

Sam,

Welcome back. Congratulations on your granddaughter's graduation. I haven't even had the parental experience of one of my sons graduating from college yet, so you're a bit more (ahem) experienced in this area than I am.

I didn't see the game, so I can't comment on it. As usual, that won't stop me from commenting on your comments.

I was somewhat skeptical initially, but I think Bass and Wilcox could be an effective post combination. Your point about most teams not having an effective starting center, let alone a backup, is valid. These two guys are generally durable, and I think they'll do nicely. They could be a real below-the-radar plus.

Having said that, getting Przybilla would be a good move. I'd consider him insurance against JON's lack of durability.

I won't belabor it, but I think Posey's done. He shot 38.0% on threes as a Celtic, but here are his percentages in the three years since: 36.9, 33.5, 31.6. And it's not for lack of trying -- he took 4.9 shots a game last season, and 4.3 of them were threes. I'm sure he still has some intangibles and good locker room chemistry, but I think the C's would be better served by giving a younger player that opportunity.

I agree that Dooling/Quis/Posey/Wilcox/Bass would be a nice second unit, but Doc rarely plays second units. Looking at 82games.com, you have to go pretty far down the list of 5-man units to find one that doesn't include Rondo, Allen, Pierce, or Garnett. Like you, I wish he would have a designated second unit off the bench that plays together a decent amount of time, and Doc may change his strategy this season with all the back-to-backs, but playing five subs is against his DNA.

Outside

Coulndn't agree more with acquiring James Posey. I have long advocated this and the depth and versatility of the team would be markedly enhanced!

MD!

Posey ???

I'm not as concerned about his shooting going a bit downhill as much as I would be concerned about his defense ability now. Can he still guard both the 3's and the 4's as good as he did 4 years ago? No one his age gains agility, quickness, or hops.

Can we get him on the cheap? Could he play 12-15 minutes a game and be effective. Might say he knows the team but there are only 4 left from when he was here before (plus Doc of course).

Just not sure if there isn't someone out there that might be better. Think we need to look to the future and quit looking in the past, as Outside suggests.

beat

Posey also brings the love (not Kevin, although he's more than welcome) James provided the pre game hugs for assurance solidarity & stability!

MD!

MDCelticsFan wrote:Posey also brings the love (not Kevin, although he's more than welcome) James provided the pre game hugs for assurance solidarity & stability!

MD!

Him and Eddie House were the teams huggie bears!! ( and I'd certainly accept Kevin Love on the team.... but that's a pipe dream for now.

beat

To anyone:

The question I would have is whether there's a younger guy willing to play for the veteran's minimum who would have a better set of attributes than what Posey could offer. I also felt he might come on the cheap because he's already making $7.5 million this year and the familiar Celtics system might act as the best possible showcase for him to display his talents looking toward next year.

But, as Bob Heckler (I think it was Bob) said, it appears that the Celtics are satisfied with their backup 3s. I just think that, especially when it comes to covering bigger and more rugged SFs, their two wing positions are now somewhat thin (figuratively and literally), to say nothing of Quis' questionable health situation.

Outside, actually I prefer situational substitution over a two-unit system, as situational substitution almost always combines first-line players with some subs. But Doc seems to prefer what amounts to a two-unit system, even if the bench winds up playing with a given starter. (That's not situational substitution as I see it.)

Moreover, situational substitution works best with players who are familiar with one another and can represent a system of interchangeable parts. Whatever Doc does about the rest of the bench, I hope to see a lot of the Bass/Wilcox tandem together because I believe they would be a combined and rugged bench force. I bet they give Jermaine and KG all they can handle in practice.

Time will tell.

Sam

Beat:

The only other Huggie, besides the diaper, is the original (not extra crispy) Huggie Bear, and that's Starsky & Hutch's old buddy Huggie Bear (Antonio Faragas.

MD!

Heard a rumor last night on ESPN that Kenyon Martin is interesting in coming back to the NBA....and has been in contact with Doc Rivers.

Hmmm

mrkleen09 wrote:Heard a rumor last night on ESPN that Kenyon Martin is interesting in coming back to the NBA....and has been in contact with Doc Rivers.

Hmmm

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

K-Mart is, without a shred of doubt in my mind, THE dumbest player in the NBA. I honestly cannot name any other player even close. His basketball IQ is so low it sucked the brain cells out of the heads of his fellow Nuggets and made them dumber too.

Besides, we're loaded with 4s, we need a tall and/or beefy 5. Keep saying that to yourself Danny. We need a 5, We need a 5...

bob

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Sam,

In answer to your question I can't think of a younger, productive guy who we could get cheaper than Posey and at the veterans minimum. I suppose we could try for Jonathan Bender or Darius Miles, but that seems like a step backwards. I did laugh right after I wrote Miles' name!

It looks like our roster is pretty well set, and I'm guessing we want to be a player under the limit as the season starts just in case.

My own take is that I'm not sure we would want or need Posey. Personally I think bringing him in would be a mistake. From what we saw of him last year I don't think he can defend like he used to, or any better than Daniels/Sasha at this point. I'm not sure about his shooting.

I think it was The Globe that reported we aren't interested in Posey but the Knicks still are, even after signing Steve Novak.

One positive note on our depth behind Pierce is that the surgery Daniels had is supposed to have fixed a problem that's hampered him going back to his youth. Maybe the injury bug will be a thing of the past.

I also think Doc is going to go with that three-guard lineup he's been toying with. If so, we don't really need another SF. I like the idea of having 2 bigs out there (from Bass/Wilcox/Johnson/Stiemsma) with three quick guards (from Rondo/Dooling/Moore/Bradley). That might have potential. I probably am biased toward wanting to see that because my green-colored glasses tell me so many past Celtics championships came from quick/running lineups like that. To me that's a lineup we could use to present some real matchup problems and reduce minutes for our aging core three.

I have written in the past that it's now a swing-man's league, and the east is dominated by strong, quick 3's. But if there aren't any we can get out there (and there aren't) it's time to try a different strategy. Doc looks to possibly be going there; we'll have a better gauge Wednesday night. The new Celtic 2nd unit/substitution mantra? I'm betting it's "3 guards". Say it with me everyone.

Regards

NYCelt,

You're preaching to the choir when it comes to the effectiveness of a good running game. I actually think it's more important for a bench than for the starters because I like to see a bench come in and amp up the speed.

I wonder what would happen if Doc had the horses to insert a running bench earlier than "normal" in the first quarter (say around the six minute mark). Presumably, it's a move that could take advantage of tiring starters on the other team, with the transition game fatiguing them even more. It might be wise to leave Rondo in the game for a brief spell to get the bench up to speed (literally and figuratively) and then replace him with Dooling. I believe that Bass and Wilcox could provide board strength to fuel the transition game. I don't know for sure about Wilcox, but it looks to me as though Bass could be a good trailer/finisher on the break as well

Then, soon after the opposing bench entered the game, I'd bring back the Celtics starters and look for matchup advantages. Each time the opposition starters reentered the game, I'd leave the Celtics starters in for a few minutes and then replace them with a fresh, running bench.

One of the reasons the running game worked in years gone by is that opposing starters were often gassed by crunch time. I'd like to see history repeat itself.

When the Celtics call me in as a celebrity guest coach, I think I'm going to try this strategy.

Sam

I agree with BobH's assessment of Kenyon Martin, with one minor twist. Michael in Denver can probably provide a better opinion, but I don't consider his basketball IQ low, it's that his knucklehead quotient is ridiculously high. I've seen so many times where Martin will prefer to do the dirty little trick that actually hurts his team, sometimes right in front of the ref. It's like he can't help himself. Maybe you could call that low basketball IQ, but I distinguish that from someone like, say, Kwame Brown or Gerald Green who makes the wrong play out of lack of understanding. I think Martin does understand how to play the game, but he makes the wrong play due to a mean-spirited, even malicious personality.

I do agree wholeheartedly with BobH's comment that the only big the C's should consider at this point is a true 5. They have enough 4s.

Outside

Outside wrote:I agree with BobH's assessment of Kenyon Martin, with one minor twist... I don't consider his basketball IQ low, it's that his knucklehead quotient is ridiculously high. Outside

Knucklehead Quotient. Now THAT should be an official stat!

sam wrote:NYCelt,

You're preaching to the choir when it comes to the effectiveness of a good running game. I actually think it's more important for a bench than for the starters because I like to see a bench come in and amp up the speed.

I wonder what would happen if Doc had the horses to insert a running bench earlier than "normal" in the first quarter (say around the six minute mark). Presumably, it's a move that could take advantage of tiring starters on the other team, with the transition game fatiguing them even more. It might be wise to leave Rondo in the game for a brief spell to get the bench up to speed (literally and figuratively) and then replace him with Dooling. I believe that Bass and Wilcox could provide board strength to fuel the transition game. I don't know for sure about Wilcox, but it looks to me as though Bass could be a good trailer/finisher on the break as well

Then, soon after the opposing bench entered the game, I'd bring back the Celtics starters and look for matchup advantages. Each time the opposition starters reentered the game, I'd leave the Celtics starters in for a few minutes and then replace them with a fresh, running bench.

One of the reasons the running game worked in years gone by is that opposing starters were often gassed by crunch time. I'd like to see history repeat itself.

When the Celtics call me in as a celebrity guest coach, I think I'm going to try this strategy.

Sam

Sam,

Whenever the subject of the running game comes up I picture you not in the choir box but front-and-center at the pupit preaching the philosophy. Loudly. Not surprisingly your robes and other vestments are all green in those visions.

I'm not certain about Wilcox in transition yet either, let's cross our fingers. Bass looks like the real deal.

I like your thought on bringing in the personnel needed to turn up the tempo earlier in the game. I hope it's a thought that's crossed Doc's mind too.

Regards

Outside wrote:I agree with BobH's assessment of Kenyon Martin, with one minor twist. Michael in Denver can probably provide a better opinion, but I don't consider his basketball IQ low, it's that his knucklehead quotient is ridiculously high. I've seen so many times where Martin will prefer to do the dirty little trick that actually hurts his team, sometimes right in front of the ref. It's like he can't help himself. Maybe you could call that low basketball IQ, but I distinguish that from someone like, say, Kwame Brown or Gerald Green who makes the wrong play out of lack of understanding. I think Martin does understand how to play the game, but he makes the wrong play due to a mean-spirited, even malicious personality.

I do agree wholeheartedly with BobH's comment that the only big the C's should consider at this point is a true 5. They have enough 4s.

Outside

Outside,

Yeah, Michael in Denver would be best to comment on this.

I remember those two plays in the playoffs, against the Lakers, where Knucklehead grabbed a Laker's arm and wouldn't let go of it. Really, really obviously and really, really unnecessarily. Foul. Then, a few sequences later, he was down on the floor and, instead of getting up and running back on defense, he grabbed hold of another Laker's leg (I think Pau's) and just held on. Right in front of the ref after he just got caught doing the same knucklehead thing a few minutes earlier.

I predict it would take less than a month before KG, RA and PP pool some money and hire a contract killer to fix their newest roster problem.

If they call me, I'd be willing to make a donation.

bob

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Dboss

Often wonder why so many teams feel that they have to have the samel 5 starters anyway given if all the players are healthy. Getting players used to playing with different combos would appear to pay dividends if injuries occur. Playoff time is not the time to figure out combinations that can click so why not play experiment a lot during the season, we'll make the playoffs but it might cost us a little in the seedings but so be it if it makes us better come June.

Apples to grapes comparison perhaps but baseball managers are known to sit many a "starter" if he is struggling or play a player whom may be particulary hot against a certain pitcher or just on a hunch.

Heck start Bass in place of KG once in a while (KG's head would explode of course) but imagine him comming of the bench, frothing at the mouth going against perhaps a second line player from the other team.

I know many times it has been suggested that PP come of the bench the past couple years. Would save his legs perhaps. And isn't it said it's not who starts but who finishes?

I'm for anything that can keep the big three healthy and productive. The minutes have to be cut and cut back a lot now that there are so many games in such a short time frame with so many back to backs. Our goal as always is to try and win a championship and that is NOT going to be done in December thru April. If we integrate numerous combinations it will IMHO not only help us but also make that much tougher for other teams to prepare to play us.

getting a high seed might be nice but getting there healthy and with our legs under us is much more important.

Yeah probably won't happen and the starters are whom they are and Doc has shown little trust in playing kids extended minutes but this year morso than any previous year he must do things different or PP, KG and RA will be tanked by May.

Just my opinion and subject to change like the weather.

beat

NYCelt wrote:

Outside wrote:I agree with BobH's assessment of Kenyon Martin, with one minor twist... I don't consider his basketball IQ low, it's that his knucklehead quotient is ridiculously high. Outside

Knucklehead Quotient. Now THAT should be an official stat!

Carmello would also score HIGH on that quotient.

Pierce's heel may be a blessing in disguise, as long as it doesn't linger. But if he's out for the first few games, Doc will be forced to give substantial minutes to people who wouldn't have gotten them. When Pierce comes back, there could already be a pattern of substituting that carries over for the 66-game season.

The question mark is Doc. The team doesn't have any back-to-back-to-back games but there are stretches of multiple games in a short time (12 games in 8 days or 8 games in 12 days - you may not be able to tell, but you'll certainly get your fill of basketball).

Dooling says in today's Herald that it's a team of interchangeable parts, with many smart, experienced players. So if Dooling or Bass or someone else is having a great game coming off the bench, and the big names have been logging too many minutes, one would hope, pray, demand, that Doc leave the guy in the game. Or guys if it's a combination.

Then there's Red's idea of a full court press unit. Every year until Russell arrived, going back to the Washington Capitols, Red had both a sixth man and a full court press unit. The pressing unit was made up of bench guys who were asked to go all out for a short period of time and try to wear the other team's starters out. Why couldn't Doc do that? (Come to think of it, who is going to be the sixth man? Can you have a Celtics team without one?)

This notion that it's important to have home court advantage does not outweigh the notion that it's important to have your playmakers healthy for the playoffs. If leaving the backups in the game to get experience means losing a few games, it's a matter of priorities.

spike,

The Celtics have one back-to-back-to-back late in the season, April 13-14-15, at Toronto, at NJ and at Charlotte.

April 4th to the 20th, 12 games in 17 days. I hope the Kiddie Korps are in the rotation by then.

15 days off in January, 15 for February, 14 for March, 15 for April (4 of those are after the last regular season game on the 26th)

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/bos/schedule?view=calendar&season=2012&m=04

The Celtics have waived Jamal Sampson.

I predict Sweetney will be next, just as soon as we can accelerate enough to escape his gravitational field...

bob

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