POST GAME CHICAGO

Tale of two half's tonight. First half we play team ball defense, we play team ball offense by being aggressive and scoring in the paint and we build an 11 point lead.

Second half, we play hero ball by taking jump shots from outside the paint. In the third quarter alone we managed to get 6 TO's. Garnett and Pierce stunk up the second half with ridiculous fouls, one a T. on KG against Noah, poor shot selection, no team defense.....nothing good. I also have to throw Doc under the bus by not slowing the game down and calling for a time out when Chicago began to steal the momentum in the third quarter. Got to also ask - WHERE WAS DOOLING AND DANIELS? They are good ball pressure guys, where were they???????????

I believe the biggest problem facing the Celtics down the stretch is learning how to close out games. They are looking sophomoric in their play more and more.


NEXT GAME 7:00 PM SATURDAY @ INDIANA - CSNE/NBA LEAGUE PASS

112288

POST GAME RECAP WEEI 850 AM

FAST BREAK: CELTICS RUN OUT OF GAS IN CHICAGO
By Paul Flannery


Avery Bradley is now a starter. (AP)

It’s a make/miss league as Doc Rivers is fond of saying on occasion when analysis breaks down and all you can do is shake your head. The Celtics made the Bulls miss a lot in the first half of their game on Thursday night, but it was a different story in the second.

John Lucas III drained a 30-footer with the shot clock running down. Luol Deng double-clutched a jumper, but it fell anyway. The Celtics had a chance to cut a fourth quarter lead to two points, but Kevin Garnett‘s layup rimmed in and out.

The Celtics competed hard on the second night of a back-to-back and it was their best effort in Chicago since Tom Thibodeau took over as head coach, but it wasn’t enough in a 93-86 loss. They remain a game ahead of Philadelphia in the Atlantic Division with a showdown looming on Sunday, but they lost a valuable chance to put some distance on the Sixers and pick up ground on the reeling Magic.

WHAT WENT RIGHT

Avery as a starter: Rivers told the TNT broadcast that it was Ray Allen‘s idea to come off the bench and insert Avery Bradley into the starting lineup. This is how you handle a potentially awkward move. With Allen’s blessing, the Celtics can play the best lineup they’ve had all season. The word “classy” will be used a lot — especially in light of the dysfunction in Orlando — but the real word here is “professional,” and both Rivers and Allen have exuded that during this transition.

Allen as a reserve: On a night when Bradley dealt with foul trouble, Allen was able to score 14 points off the bench. It wasn’t vintage Allen, but you can see his timing starting to return.

The defense has been insane: After a first half in which the Bulls scored 38 points and made just 12-of-35 shots, the Celtics played four quarters where they allowed just 66 points to two of the top four teams in the league in terms of offensive efficiency. Then the third quarter happened and the Celtics gave up 29 points. Still, that four-quarter run was the best sustained defensive effort they’ve had this year.

WHAT WENT WRONG

Kevin Garnett is searching for his shot: As consistent as he’s been, Garnett will go through minor shooting slumps like he’s having right now. Over the last three games he’s 17-for-47 and seems to be aiming, or short-rimming his outside jumper. It could be an indication of tired legs or fatigue and that’s to be expected at this point in the season.

Breaking news: The Celtics have rebounding issues: This is why the Bulls matchup is so tough for them. With their big, deep and athletic frontline, the Celtics have a hard time finding bodies to bang down low. They stayed with them on the boards for a half, but surrendered 14 offensive rebounds and that remains their Achilles heel.

The bench didn’t produce: It’s going to take some time to work Allen into the rotation and find some rhythm, but the sooner the better because the Celtics bench needs a lift. They’ve done admirable work without several key players, but on a night when Garnett was struggling, the bench offered little help. Greg Stiemsma picked up three quick fouls, Ryan Hollins had two points and no rebounds in 12 minutes and Keyon Dooling and Sasha Pavlovic didn’t record any shot attempts.

I wonder how many times Thibbs and his Bulls have beaten our Celts since he took the head coaching job in Chicago? Also Rose didn't even make it back last night as was predicted.

MD!

Hi,
In the section "What went wrong" he should've put just 2 words: second half. What a pathetic performance. I can't even come with an excuse. Oh well... I hope Doc ripped enough holes so, on Sat they will rip Ind apart.

AK

On the bright side we played that bad in the second half and still had a good chance at winning.

Think the Back to Back factor might have shown it's face a little last eve and that seems to shows up on the offensive end more than the defense.

Working hard on defense is one thing working hard on offense when the shots are not falling is quite another.

beat

Another frustrating loss we didn't have to take.

The difference between the Chicago Bulls with Rose vs without Rose is only a few points. Credit for that has to go to Thib for his great coaching and to the rest of the Bulls team (e.g. Deng, Boozer, Watson) for stepping up. Rose's injury has given Rip Hamilton a chance to get minutes. What team can go wrong doing that?

We ran in the first half. We didn't in the second. We hit some shots in the first half, we didn't in the second. We took care of the ball and played good transition defense in the first half, we didn't in the second. They came out after halftime and executed and ground out a winning game and we didn't. Rondo and Pierce kept picking up their dribble 25-30+' away from the basket and looked for someone to pass to. Chicago saw that and stepped out to pressure that pass and that hurt us. A lot of clock-beating missed shots by us in the 2nd half due that passive offensive set execution by them. They made multiple passes, we went one-on-one. The results were predictable.

1. So much for that Paul Flannery piece posted by 112288 called "Meet your new sixth man: Avery Bradley". I think May Flys live longer than that article did. The torch has been passed. It has been a rough week for Bradley, albeit a generally good one. First he had to guard Monta Ellis, then DWade, then 6'7" Daniel Green.

2. The Pierce-Deng matchup has turned into one helluva rivalry. 4 steals by Deng might be the difference, as well as Pierce's inability to stop Deng from going to (and hitting) Deng's favorite shot, the elbow jumper. Team leaders, leading their teams.

3. I hate Noah, he's looks like a housewife doing vacuuming, but he obviously hates KG and really gets up to play him. Usually KG is the guy who messes with his opponent's heads but last night it was the other way around. KG's T and the push-off foul on the inbounds pass were due to Noah's constant in-his-face pressure. It's odd, we have made a big deal about Rondo's shooting mechanics here but Noah's makes Rondo look like Elgin Baylor. The difference is that Noah's go in. Noah's ft% is 72% career, 75% this year. How it goes in, I have no idea. He two hand push shoots them putting a right-to-left rotation on it instead of a backspin. Huh?

4. Ray Allen's timing was clearly off in the 1st half but it improved in the second. I suppose that's a glimmer from this game. What a classy professional. When Ray was a starter the second unit really didn't have anybody running coherent offensive sets, Bradley and Dooling didn't and Daniels was marooned on the bench. Perhaps, with Ray now on the 2nd unit not only will there be more firepower but better offensive execution.

5. KG is in a vicious shooting slump. Another bad shooting night. 5-16. When the team only takes 77 fga that's a large percentage of the total for 1 player to take (21%). It's hard to win when the player taking the most fga is only shooting 31%.

6. My God we are an awful rebounding team. It looks to me like we have completely forgotten the fundamentals of boxing out. I don't know if there's such a thing as a "rebounding coach" but we need to find one (that's assuming the veterans on this team would be willing to listen to someone re-teach them something they were taught in high school). Once again, as in the San Antonio game, late game board crashing by the Bulls spoiled our comeback.

A day off before we play the good Indiana Pacers in Indianapolis and then home to punish the Sixers on the second game of a back-to-back.

This schedule is unbelievable.

bob

.

Here's Doc's post-game interview. Listen to what he says about our effort. This is one pissed-off individual.


http://www.csnne.com/basketball-boston-celtics/celtics-talk/WATCH-Doc-fumes-over-loss-to-Bulls?blockID=683994&feedID=3352#video_lightbox



bob


.

Rebounding certainly has fallen on hard times since management saw fit not to retain Clifford Ray!

MD!

MDCelticsFan wrote:Rebounding certainly has fallen on hard times since management saw fit not to retain Clifford Ray!

MD!

MD,

1. Clifford Ray was with us 2005-2010.
2. Celtics were getting 42.0rpg in the Championship year of 2008, 42.1 in 2009, 38.6 in 2010, 38.8 last year, 38.5 this year. One could claim that the loss of Perk hurt our rebounding, but Perk was traded last year and as you can see our rebounding started to decline the year before he got traded. In fact, the year he got traded, 2011, saw our rpg go up marginally to 38.8. The 2010 season, Ray's and Perk's last full season with the Celtics, shows a decline in rebounding.

If 38.5rpg is horrible, then 38.6 isn't much better. That's what we averaged Perk and Clifford Ray's last season here.

Clifford Ray is a fine coach and has a lot to offer young, developing big men but I don't see where his coaching presence enhanced rebounding.

bob


.

Boy, what Dave Cowens couldn't do for this team!

And I'm talking about the present-day, age 63 Dave Cowens. The kind of guy who, if he got knocked down, would bite an opponent in the ass on his way to the floor. The kind of guy for whom an elbow shot would mean the bony projection between his forearm and the upper arm getting buried deep in some opponent's solar plexis. The kind of guy who never met a floorburn he didn't like. The kind of guy who would have had half the Bulls team joining Rose on the groin malfunction list. Testiculosis batta bing time.

Do you know the shot in "Gone with the Wind" that pulls back and reveals a landscape strewn with bodies? That's what I'd like to see.....during warmups! Where's laundry man Kevin McHale and his clothesiine when we really need him?

This team needs to learn that there are only two kinds of fouls—no fouls and hard fouls. This team needs to learn it's not impolite to plant your posterior in someone's nose. This team needs to play like the Energizer, not like the Bunny.

This team also needs to realize that it's wonderful to see amazing ballhandling BUT not if there's just one degree of separation between a great pass and a turnover.

This is the time of year when the chemistry has improved about as much as it's going to. The biggest advance that can be made between now and the playoffs involves tougness.

And I will turn a deaf ear to anyone who suggests that toughness is just not in the Celtics' makeup. Because, just as offensive execution is best achieved by teamwork, so is toughness.

• It's time to forget the early retreats when a Celtic shoots the ball. Send a guy or two downcourt to contest breakaways, and send the other three to gang-bang the hell out of the offensive boards, limiting the breakaways as much as possible and getting some easy putbacks.

• Teach them that it's more effective for two guys to put bodies on opponents while one guy contests the rebounds than for three guys to reach in with one hand so they can get a finger on the rebound before losing it to opponents who have the inside track

• It's time to re-adopt the philosophy of "No Easy Shots" for opponents.

• It's time to stop playing like Elmer Fudd even when you're in foul trouble and start blasting some penetrators so they'll be less likely to continue the kind of aggressiveness that produces defensive reach-in fouls.

There's no shame in a hard-fought loss. There is shame in playing like a bunch of jumping jacks with your fingers sewn together and indecisiveness in your demeanor. Come on guys. This is a hurdle you need to clear. You can do it. The way you're playing now saps your energy too much for too little return. Start playing so that each erg of energy you expend gains something while also draining at least an erg of energy from your opponent.

Sam

sam wrote:Boy, what Dave Cowens couldn't do for this team!

And I'm talking about the present-day, age 63 Dave Cowens. The kind of guy who, if he got knocked down, would bite an opponent in the ass on his way to the floor. The kind of guy for whom an elbow shot would mean the bony projection between his forearm and the upper arm getting buried deep in some opponent's solar plexis. The kind of guy who never met a floorburn he didn't like. The kind of guy who would have had half the Bulls team joining Rose on the groin malfunction list. Testiculosis batta bing time.

Do you know the shot in "Gone with the Wind" that pulls back and reveals a landscape strewn with bodies? That's what I'd like to see.....during warmups! Where's laundry man Kevin McHale and his clothesiine when we really need him?

This team needs to learn that there are only two kinds of fouls—no fouls and hard fouls. This team needs to learn it's not impolite to plant your posterior in someone's nose. This team needs to play like the Energizer, not like the Bunny.

This team also needs to realize that it's wonderful to see amazing ballhandling BUT not if there's just one degree of separation between a great pass and a turnover.

This is the time of year when the chemistry has improved about as much as it's going to. The biggest advance that can be made between now and the playoffs involves tougness.

And I will turn a deaf ear to anyone who suggests that toughness is just not in the Celtics' makeup. Because, just as offensive execution is best achieved by teamwork, so is toughness.

• It's time to forget the early retreats when a Celtic shoots the ball. Send a guy or two downcourt to contest breakaways, and send the other three to gang-bang the hell out of the offensive boards, limiting the breakaways as much as possible and getting some easy putbacks.

• Teach them that it's more effective for two guys to put bodies on opponents while one guy contests the rebounds than for three guys to reach in with one hand so they can get a finger on the rebound before losing it to opponents who have the inside track

• It's time to re-adopt the philosophy of "No Easy Shots" for opponents.

• It's time to stop playing like Elmer Fudd even when you're in foul trouble and start blasting some penetrators so they'll be less likely to continue the kind of aggressiveness that produces defensive reach-in fouls.

There's no shame in a hard-fought loss. There is shame in playing like a bunch of jumping jacks with your fingers sewn together and indecisiveness in your demeanor. Come on guys. This is a hurdle you need to clear. You can do it. The way you're playing now saps your energy too much for too little return. Start playing so that each erg of energy you expend gains something while also draining at least an erg of energy from your opponent.

Sam

Sounds just a cupcake shy of a "bounty" program. :-)

Living out here in the beautiful bay area, this is deja vu all over again. Tell me this video doesn't ring true. Different sport, different coach, same call to duty and toughness.






P.S. Next year, he was gone, because the players didn't respond...

bob


.

Sam

somewhere I recall Russell saying something like this

"You may shoot free throws but you may not shoot layups"

guess if your still able to shoot the free throw.

beat

Bob,

Lord knows, I think Doc is great. I've consistently been the first to defend him back in the pre-KG days. And he definitely justified my defense. I think he has done a super job of getting the Three Amigos on the same page. And maybe even a better job of stirring the batter with Rondo one of the ingredients.

But I do have to ask myself what the heck is going on when some of these problems seem so obvious. Is Heinsohn seeing something that's eluding the coaches? Are the coaches convinced that this team doesn't have the makeup to accomplish some of the things that need to be done? Because, if the coaches are drilling this stuff into the players' heads, how is it that the players apparently aren't called to account for a perpetuation of the same old crap?

Yes, I know that rebounding is partly a function of height and weight. But according to some of the greatest rebounders who have ever played the game, rebounding is more a function of positioning and boxing out. How often have we heard the comment that most rebounding is done beneath the rim?

I have to hand it to Paul Pierce because he has obviously added rebounding to his priority list—possibly to some detriment of his energy for the rest of his game. But, despite the fact that one Celtic or another usually has good rebounding stats in a given game, their collective rebounding is usually sub-par. And, while it may be a fact that opponents have more offensive rebounds available to them because they take more shots than the Celtics, those same rebounds are also available to the Celts in the form of defensive boards.

This team is a bit of a teaser. Every time I get really repulsed by their repeated transgressions, they play a great game (see Miami Heat). Then the magic seems to fade.

I'm not giving up on them, and I never will. Three weeks is plenty of time to get into a more productive mind set, and I truly believe they will do so. This stretch of games might as well be called "Litmus Alley," and I realize that they've performed quite well under the circumstances.

But the time is coming when the circumstances will be etched in granite. They need to get to another plateau, which will undoubtedly rest primarily on great defense. But it's the rebounding (at both ends) and the offense that needs a lot of straightening-out, and the main challenge in that area rests between their ears.

Sam

Beat,

A very astute observation.

Sam

sam wrote:Boy, what Dave Cowens couldn't do for this team!

And I'm talking about the present-day, age 63 Dave Cowens. The kind of guy who, if he got knocked down, would bite an opponent in the ass on his way to the floor. The kind of guy for whom an elbow shot would mean the bony projection between his forearm and the upper arm getting buried deep in some opponent's solar plexis. The kind of guy who never met a floorburn he didn't like. The kind of guy who would have had half the Bulls team joining Rose on the groin malfunction list. Testiculosis batta bing time.

Do you know the shot in "Gone with the Wind" that pulls back and reveals a landscape strewn with bodies? That's what I'd like to see.....during warmups! Where's laundry man Kevin McHale and his clothesiine when we really need him?

This team needs to learn that there are only two kinds of fouls—no fouls and hard fouls. This team needs to learn it's not impolite to plant your posterior in someone's nose. This team needs to play like the Energizer, not like the Bunny.

This team also needs to realize that it's wonderful to see amazing ballhandling BUT not if there's just one degree of separation between a great pass and a turnover.

This is the time of year when the chemistry has improved about as much as it's going to. The biggest advance that can be made between now and the playoffs involves tougness.

And I will turn a deaf ear to anyone who suggests that toughness is just not in the Celtics' makeup. Because, just as offensive execution is best achieved by teamwork, so is toughness.

• It's time to forget the early retreats when a Celtic shoots the ball. Send a guy or two downcourt to contest breakaways, and send the other three to gang-bang the hell out of the offensive boards, limiting the breakaways as much as possible and getting some easy putbacks.

• Teach them that it's more effective for two guys to put bodies on opponents while one guy contests the rebounds than for three guys to reach in with one hand so they can get a finger on the rebound before losing it to opponents who have the inside track

• It's time to re-adopt the philosophy of "No Easy Shots" for opponents.

• It's time to stop playing like Elmer Fudd even when you're in foul trouble and start blasting some penetrators so they'll be less likely to continue the kind of aggressiveness that produces defensive reach-in fouls.

There's no shame in a hard-fought loss. There is shame in playing like a bunch of jumping jacks with your fingers sewn together and indecisiveness in your demeanor. Come on guys. This is a hurdle you need to clear. You can do it. The way you're playing now saps your energy too much for too little return. Start playing so that each erg of energy you expend gains something while also draining at least an erg of energy from your opponent.

Sam

Sam great post, last night we lost the war of attrition, they out toughed us, got all the loose balls and the last 2 games we've gotten killed on the boards. In 85 Riley wrote on the blackboard no rebounds no rings, thats how important hard nosed defense and rebounding is. Your boy Noah has that KG ability to stick close and body hug opponents tightly, odd seeing someone KG on KG. I read a year ago Nuggets offered Carmelo for Noah and Bulls said no way.....the reason Bulls keep on winning without Rose is cause they are relentless defenders that keep on crashing the boards and getting in your face every game, refreshing to see that style of ballin still has its place, that what we did to teams in 08.

.....another thing about Cowens, he took it as much as he dished it out, you elbow him once you'll be getting it back twice, three times more back

Dave Cowens wasn't big either but he was 6'9" full of want to, something missing when it comes to rebounding on this team.

Cow,

I wonder what the Bulls' record would be if Rose hanlyd played 54 of 56 games like Noah has while Noah had played only 34 of 56 games like Rose has.

Sam

In the 2007 draft I wanted the Celts to draft Noah who was picked ninth. Instead we used our #5 slot to take Jeff Green who was then traded to Seattle for Ray Allen. I wonder what would have happened had we instead picked Noah. We probably would never have gotten Kevin...interesting to think of the permutations.

Sam

I just love Noahs game, guy is so fast and relentless, he'll never get all NBA honors, but hes as important as Rose, he is the face of that defense which has been in the top 2 the last few years, also has a handle and is a great passer.....you saw his potential at draft time, I thought he might be too frail, hes a young KG without the 18 ft jumper. Hes obviously an impact player as Boozers defense is average at best, his frenzied style of D has carried that team.

The guy who really focked up is Lebron, imagine if he was playing with Noah and Rose instead of the anti Noah/Perk/Silas Bosh and the 30 year old Wade, who is #1 on my hate list. If Heat don't win this year, that team will never win unless they break it up and get a real inside presence, Bosh, Anthony, Haslem will not cut it.

cow

Cow,

If Noah is the fact of the Bulls' defense, then their defense is butt ugly. Do you remember the crap NoTrade gave me for preferring Noah over other draft candidates who might have been available at #5? My reasoning then was that Noah might be a great fit with Rondo and a few of the other young guys they had back then to form a great defense/up-tempo element for the team.

Danny went in a different direction, and the results were immediate and stupendous. But, if Ray and KG hadn't been available, I still think Noah, Jefferson, Rondo, Pierce, Delonte, Perk, Powe and Gomes could have formed a interesting nucleus (probably with a couple of trades involved). Of course, back then, it wasn't a sure thing that Pierce was going to remain a Celtic; and getting a couple of young studs for him (or his cap money) might have helped form a very fine core.

It's all water under the bridge now; and, except for a few notable injuries, I wouldn't have changed a thing. But I do have a "Go to Hell" welcome mat with NoTrade's name on it.

Sam

Sam, Great minds think alike, but then living in FL for the winters we probably had more of a chance to see Noah play college ball than others.
In any event, we are where we are, # 17 in hand, # 18 just slipped out of our grasp, and we lead the league in aorta repairs.

sam wrote:Cow,

If Noah is the fact of the Bulls' defense, then their defense is butt ugly. Do you remember the crap NoTrade gave me for preferring Noah over other draft candidates who might have been available at #5? My reasoning then was that Noah might be a great fit with Rondo and a few of the other young guys they had back then to form a great defense/up-tempo element for the team.

Danny went in a different direction, and the results were immediate and stupendous. But, if Ray and KG hadn't been available, I still think Noah, Jefferson, Rondo, Pierce, Delonte, Perk, Powe and Gomes could have formed a interesting nucleus (probably with a couple of trades involved). Of course, back then, it wasn't a sure thing that Pierce was going to remain a Celtic; and getting a couple of young studs for him (or his cap money) might have helped form a very fine core.

It's all water under the bridge now; and, except for a few notable injuries, I wouldn't have changed a thing. But I do have a "Go to Hell" welcome mat with NoTrade's name on it.

Sam

yeah Sam I do remember, how could he make those comments when the draft is such a crapshoot and no one knows results for at least a few years, I remember alot of those on that board wanted Yi that Chinese bust....glad we never took him. I would love to have had a 3 man BIG rotation of Perk, Noah and Big Al, Al's post up game and rebounding would compliment Noah's frenetic running style and Perks bruising beastly inside play.....WOW that would have worked out great with Pierce, Rondo, Tony Allen, Delonte, possibly a few other pieces, Posey, maybe we can still get AB, we would've also been set to contend for years. Wonder whatever happened to dudder?

Cow,

A member of the BDC board who is now on this forum and didn't want to be identified has a legitimate inside entree to a Celtics coach in those days. He learned from that coach that Danny was going to take YI. What a waste of a draft pick that would have been. I'm glad you mentioned Tony Allen, who could also have been part of a strong Celtics group (at least after a couple of years of maturation).

So what are we talking as a Celtics team for the second half of the past decade? Jefferson, Perk, Noah, Pierce, Delonte, Gomes, Tony, Rondo, Posey. Could have been intteresting with a year or two of seasoning and chemistry-building.

Sam

Sam

I've been keeping tabs on TA, the Hound Dog I used to call him, alot of announcers call him the best Kobe defender around, imagine him, AB and Rondo on defense with those 3 BIGS? By now Danny would have gotten rid of Posey, lets go with Big Al, Perk, Noah, Pierce, Delonte, Rondo, TA, AB, lets add a Michael Pietrus to back up Pierce.....I really like this team, a galore of inside defense and rebounding, we'd have a post BIG in Big Al, a running BIG in Noah igniting and finishing on fastbreaks, Perks hulking presence, Pierces all around clutch big shot game, great defenders and runners with those 4 in the backcourt, 2 other guards AB and Delonte that can play point for stretches, with one the pure point Rondo. We could still add a Steamer and maybe fill out the roster with a long range sniper to add to Pietrus, an Eddie House type possibly.....wow I'm liken this team more and more, what do you think?

cow

Cow,

It's certainly an interesting group, although you can never tell in advance what kind of chemistry a certain mix of players might have. (You know how much of a devotee of chemistry I am.

One problem with thinking about the group you outlined is that they wouldn't all be in their prime at the same time. In fact, it's very likely Paul Pierce might not have opted to remain with the team had not Danny indicated how serious he was about upgrading the team by trading Ray Allen. Pierce signed soon after that trade. I also suspect Paul had at least a strong inkling that DG was on Danny's rader, because they traded for KG very soon after Paul signed on for five more years.

That whole situation was like a bunch of sequential building blocks. Would Paul have signed if not for Ray's advent and the strong likelihood that KG would be coming to Boston? Would KG have agreed to the trade if not for the presence of Ray and Pierce on the team.

For one reason or another, I don't believe the list of players we've been talking about would have played together. And, if they had played together, it would have taken Noah some time to mature, and both Perk and Jefferson would have wanted to be starters so they might very likely have lost one of those two.

It's a case of something sounding better than would realistically have been possible. And we do know that banner #17 was a reality, while we can only conjecture whether it would have eventuated without the Three Amigos (plus a little time in Rome) forming the nucleus of the team while Rondo matured (still an ongoing process).

Sam