Ray & Avery:

something im not sure i understand, with the talk about Ray, who made 10 million last year and averaged: 14.2 pts 2.4 assists and 1.1 steals during a crunched season and playng largely injured with bone spurs, possibly (or likely) heading to another team. Talk among Celtics fans is:

if he wants too much money he can go see the door:

If he cant accept a 6th man role he's welcomed to walk out the door:


the emotional pull of seeing Ray Retire a celtic alongside paul and KG (wouldnt that be great to see a Celtics Big 3 all go to the Hall Together) im looking at this as... this season we saw a struggeling Ray still put up the above numbers..

the way i see it, we have the ability to pay Ray more money that just about any other team that could be contenders next season.. (for example Miami)

Ray's role on the C's could be a much larger role in Boston than in some other cities that will be contenders (say miami where he'd backup Wade)


lets forget about age for just a minute.. again, playing injured for a portion of the compressed season, Ray aaveraged 14.2 ppg, down 2.3 pts from the yr before (also 2+ minutes a game at 34.0 min, down 2.06 a game from yr before) he also averaged - thats only 3.2 pts less a game than from his first season here 5 yrs ago.

he averaged 2.4 assists per game, down .3 assists from the year before

and 1.1 stls the most stls per game since he got here.

rebounds- 3.1 his worst outing since getting to boston, but down barely from 2010 where he had .1 rebounds per game more.

the area where Ray really hurt was his fg% which was still above 45%, but donw from his usual 48/49%
considering a couple facters, less minutes, the schedule, I dont see a player that NEEDS or HAS to be a sixth man

If Ray returns to form after his surgery as his did in the summer he came to us, I see a player very much a starter, and a damn good starter on near any team he'd play for.. no longer an All Star, but a top 10-15 sg in the league for sure..

im not kewl with letting a player of that caliber walk... i dont see why he NEEDS or HAS to be a 6th man...

On the other hand, Avery Bradley, barring a trade is our sg of the future, that i get:

but looking at last yrs roster, who was our 2nd best pg last yr? I mean other than HIM? Avery was a holy terror for other pg's when he took over for Rondo, and with Avery at the point it allowed Paul to do something he likes doing but really cant when Rondo is in the game, allow himself to be more of a playmaker..

now Rondo played 36.53 a game last yr.. so theres 11 minutes and change out there to be picked up

Dooling is a nice pg who had a few games that helped us, but again, Avery was, in my mind a better pg than Dooling, even if he's better at the 2 spot..

so if we do bring back Dooling, which i think Rondo would be pleased to do, I think dont see why it wouldnt make sense to use Avery somewhat at the 2..


supposing we did bring back KG we know he's going to be playing less than 30 a game, and then Ray to keep Ray fresh for the season/playoffs I think it'd make sense to keep him at no more than 30 a game as well..

thats leaving us with 18 minutes a game to be filled with another sg.. 66 minutes altogether at the guard positions

leaving that time to Avery, and using him to filll in for Rondo - even reducing Rondo's minutes some you could still give both players 33 minutes on average a game..

this sort of scenerio doesnt require either Ray or Bradley HAVING to be the guy starting or being a 6th man.. either situation woudl work on a permenet basis or depending on who we're playing:

game 1:
Rondo starts at pg..
Allen starts at SG..

5 or 6 minutes in Doc takes out KG and Ray... Avery comes back in.. a few minutes later Doc takes out Rondo, Avery moves to pg, Ray comes back in

game 2:
Rondo starts at pg
Avery starts at sg...

5 or 6 minutes in when Doc takes out KG, he takes out Bradley as well, inserts Ray.. a few minutes later takes Rondo out, inserts Avery to replace him at the point..

i dont see why this wouldnt be a better scenerio than letting Ray walk, and replacing him with another sg to simply backup Bradley for 16,18 min a game or looking for a sg with similer quality that we'd have to at this point do a sign and trade with another team giving up additional assests when Ray coudl simply be brought back with a promise of a role (minutes) suited to his skills and a respectable paycheck- which Boston has the capability to offer at this time.

can anyone explain to me why this scenerio is a worse situation than simply letting Ray go??

The Celtics got off to much better starts with Avery in starting line up. He is quicker on the break, a MUCH better defender, and given the confidence and consistency that being a starter gave him - he is a solid offensive player as well.

Ray Allen is a great shooter. Full Stop.

He is a liability on defense. He is not much of a rebounder. His ability to start to start the offense is people are defending Rondo is around nil.

If Avery Bradley is healthy in the playoffs - the Celtics beat the Heat and may well be raising #18. He is a difference maker, that's time has come. His days in the background are over.

I really like Ray Allen and hope he returns - but the scenario you describe where Avery is a part time starter - is not going to work out for either player.

The Celtics future is Avery Bradley...not Ray Allen. Ray may well even still finish games, as his ability to hit big shots is legendary. But a healthy Bradley should be the starting SG. Ray either buys in or moves on.

The biggest advantage with the Rondo - Bradley duo is on defense. Bradley takes the hardest assignment, which allows Rondo to sag off his man and freelance a bit more.

Matty,

What you describe is a possibility, but the decision about Ray's role going forward needs to consider more than statistics. (I generally agree with Kleen's assessment, but I'll add my own spin to it.)

On defense, there's very little in Ray's favor. Bradley was obviously a difference-maker on point guards, but he's also more effective than Ray against shooting guards despite being shorter (6'2" vs. 6'5"; Avery does have a 6'7.25" wingspan). A couple of years ago, I thought Ray was underappreciated as a defender, but the ankle issues and Father Time have taken a crucial toll. The Rondo-Bradley backcourt has the potential to be extremely effective defensively, not just in defense per se, but also in upping transition baskets, turning steals into fast breaks. The Celtics' team personality may change in the coming years, but I don't think it's farfetched to think they'll still be a defense-first team that sometimes struggles to be productive offensively. Transition baskets are a big help to any team, but they are particularly so to teams that struggle offensively. The double-plus of better defense and improved transition offense could mean an advantage of 8-10 points a game. Absolutely huge.

As Gyso points out, giving Bradley the tougher defensive assignment allows Rondo to play the passing lanes for steals, something he excels at. It also conserves Rondo's energy so that he can be more consistently effective late in games and late in the season and into the playoffs. They've been abusing the fact Rondo's young and riding his ability to sustain heavy minutes at a high energy level, but that's not a good career path.

The clincher for me was how well Bradley performed offensively as the season progressed. If a guy can score like he showed plus play defense like he does, well...

I'm not sure how it all works, but it also seems to me that you pay Ray less to be a sub than you do to be a starter, freeing up salary to sign another free agent. Boston can still offer him more than Miami can ($4 million?), but Miami doesn't have an starting shooting guard spot available either. The Clippers do, but they're still the Clippers, and if I'm the Clippers, I'm not sure Ray is my first choice. The way these things seem to work out is that what appeared to be lots of options for a free agent winds up whittling down rapidly to 2-3 teams. The Celtics may find themselves in a favorable negotiating position, plus they have the home team advantage.

As Kleen says, the future is with Bradley, not Ray. Given all the advantages that Bradley has and the undeniable fact that he will be the shooting guard at some point, why not make "some point" now? Give him the playing time and show the confidence in him that he needs to blossom even further. With all that in mind, I'm firmly in the camp that would love to see Ray back but with the expectation that he's coming off the bench for 20-25 minutes a game and at a salary that reflects that.

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