The Battle for LA

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The Battle for LA

Post by bobheckler on Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:56 pm

I watched most of the Clippers-Lakers game last night. Technically, a home game for the Clips, but you should have heard the crowd come alive when the Lakers got to within 3, and they weren't chanting "Defense! Defense!".

The Clips were up by over 20 and went into slowdown mode. A lot of dribbling by CP3 and then a buzzerbeating heave. Not good coaching by Vinny del Negro, who did a damn fine job against Doc a week or two ago. Credit to the Lakers for rallying and making it a one possession game with some time to spare, mostly thanks to the spectacular effort of

1. Kobe went into KoME mode. Boy, when he's "in the zone" he really is unconscious. Having said that, the rest of the Lakers stand around and watch and, if Kobe does give up the ball, they're so shocked and out-of-rhythm they don't know what to do with it. Which makes Kobe even less likely to pass it the next time. It's a self-fullfilling prophecy. 38 points on 15-25 by Kobe on a wide-array of shots, 5 steals and only 1 turnover. He also guarded CP3 most of the night. If there was a way for him to play and sell popcorn in the stands at the same time I think he would have done it. He didn't come out in the 2nd half and played 44 minutes total. He's averaging 39mpg, about 2.5mpg more than his career average, and he's 34 years old. There won't be much left of him come April at this rate. Gotta give him his props though. He was Horatius at the Bridge last night.

2. Gasol looked really bad. Old. Incapable of defending Griffin, who had 24 points on 9-16. The Lakers tried to put TAFKARA on Griffin, but that didn't work either. Griffin just blew past both of them. They have a slow, slow frontcourt.

3. The Clown fouled out last night after shooting 5-11 from the line. He was a Ben Wallace-like 3-9 and then shocked the world by hitting his last 2ftas to drag his final numbers up to a still truly pathetic 45% from the line. His fans will point to his 21 points and 15 boards. They'll ignore his 4 TOs and game-killing ft shooting. The Lakers had cut it to 2 with 1:29 left. If The Clown had hit even 7-11, which is still only 64%, it would have been a tied game. A tied game with a minute and a half left is a different game than a 2 point game with a minute and a half left and the Clips with the ball, especially if you're having trouble getting stops.

4. I thought Jodie Meeks would be a good addition for LA. 3-13 last night and not having a good year.

5. Antawn Jamison played 3 minutes last night. What a shock, a 36-year old tweener can't play in Antoni's game. Shoulda thought of that before, Dim Buss.

6. Take Kobe out of the equation and the rest of the team shot 33%.

7. Steve Nash cannot play full court. He is strictly half-court. The Lakers had only 76 fgas. That's what we get when Rondo walks it up too. Even in the half court, he just couldn't get around Bledsoe. Even with a pick to help him.

8. The Clips shot 50%. They outrebounded the Lakers 47-36. They had 15 offensive rebounds. They out-assisted them 27-19. In other words, it looked like we saw a week or two ago. They have a lot of weapons.

9. I mentioned Vinny's bad strategy of playing slow down, when slow down is all the Lakers can do and so that works for them. Well, with 42 seconds left and down by 4, the Lakers choose to NOT foul, instead allowing CP3 to dribble down to 19 seconds left and hit a 2pt shot. The brilliance of Antoni never ceases to amaze me. What's the record for most coaching changes by one team in a single season?

Vindication for a couple of ex-Laker Clippers last night. Barnes, Turiaf and Odom must have had big shit-eating grins on their faces in the locker room after the game.

We have, perhaps foolishly, been awaiting the return of Avery Bradley as if he was the savior. What does it say about the Lakers that all they have to look forward to is the return of Steve Blake (gag! cough! gag!).

Considering the dubious state of affairs in Beantown, I'm not inclined to disparage the Lakers. Nor am I ready to start throwing dirt on them, any more than I'm ready to cash in my chips on these Celtics. Both teams are built for the 2nd season, and we're not even at the halfway there point yet, but I do think my decision to switch my focus (and animus) to NYK, Miami and the rest of Murder's Row ahead of us in the East is valid. We have much bigger fish to fry than LAL.


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Re: The Battle for LA

Post by tjmakz on Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:20 pm

I'm not inclined to disparage the Lakers
Are you sure about that? Your post comes across as pretty disparaging with some non-disparaging comments sprinkled in.
First, with the names: KoME, TAFKARA, The Clown, Dim Buss.

The Clippers are a very good team and are better then the Lakers as of right now. Putting together a 17 game game winning streak is very hard to do.

1) Kobe goes into KoME mode when he sits for 4 minutes in the second quarter and the deficit goes from 7 to 17. We have heard it for years from Boston fans that Kobe can't keep this up, his knees are bone on bone, etc... and somehow he is playing better this year then he has in previous years. Come April, Kobe will have plenty left.

2) Gasol has played pretty well since he has returned, but he really struggles with Griffin's athleticism, as most PF's do. It is just a matter of time before he is traded for pieces that fit better. His traded value isn't that high but there are plenty of other players whose value has diminished.

3) If Gasol or MWP had any type of a game, focus wouldn't be on Dwight's FT shooting. LA does need him to shoot about 60% from the FT line.

4) Meeks has not had a good year. Due to the injuries of Blake and Nash, Meeks is averaging 20 mpg. I think LA was only planning on him playing the 10 minutes or so when Kobe sits. He has played some pg too, which is not his game at all.

5) So, was Buss not supposed to sign D'Antoni because of how Jamison would fit in? D'Antoni inherited Jamison.

I don't know of any coach that would foul when down by 4 with 42 seconds left. You need one stop, a score and then play the foul game. Chris Paul is a 90% FT shooter. The odds are much better that the Lakers would stop the Clippers on that posession then for Paul to miss one or both of the FT's.

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Re: The Battle for LA

Post by bobheckler on Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:59 pm

Son of a bitch.

After spending I don't know how much time writing a response it blew up just before I sent it.

I'll answer you tomorrow, TJ.

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Re: The Battle for LA

Post by bobheckler on Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:45 pm

Ok, here we try again.

1. I called him KoME because he took 33% of the Lakers' fga. 33%. One guy. I also gave him props for doing it all. I called him "Horatius at the Bridge". I've been called out already for making obscure references, the last one was about a 19th century assassin, so you would think I'd learn by now. If you're not familiar with the story of Publius Horatius Cocles, here it is: Horatius was a junior officer in the Roman army. Rome was being attacked by the Etruscans. The army ran (probably first time you ever heard about a Roman army running, huh?) and Horatius stood alone and defended a strategic bridge from the entire Etruscan army. Two other more senior officers joined him, shamed as they were by Horatius' bravery and the cowardice of their own men. They fought for hours, with the dead stacking up in front of them. The two officers ordered the destruction of the bridge and called for Horatius to retreat. There was no dynamite back then, so destroying a bridge took time. Horatius refused to withdraw, instead standing his ground and forcing the Etruscans to get at him by climbing over the mound of their own dead. He was wounded many times, including once by a spear. When the officers confirmed the bridge was destroyed, Horatius jumped off his section of the bridge and swam to safety.

If you consider comparing Bryant to Horatius "disparaging", then you probably would be jumping clear out of your skin if I had called him Audie Murphy, who merely stood on a burning tank and used its .50 caliber machine gun to kill 50 german infantrymen, while calling in artillery strikes on the german tanks. I would have been better off calling him Davy Crockett. Despite their heroism the defenders of the Alamo eventually lost, as did the Lakers the other night.

2. I call Metta World Peace (I need to take a quick timeout, I just threw up a bit into my mouth) TAFKARA because he really is The Asshole Formerly Known As Ron Artest. It is also a format made famous by Prince. What else should you call someone who climbs into the stands to try and beat up a fan? He was suspended a record 86 games for that. He was suspended 3 games for destroying a TV camera. He was suspended 4 games for threatening former Laker coach Pat Riley. He was suspended 2 games by Rick Carlisle for asking he take a month off because he was tired from promoting an R&B album. He wants a month off because he was tired from promoting an album? What an asshole! He was arrested for domestic violence against his girlfriend and the asshole was sentenced to 20 days in the slammer. He was suspended a playoff game for hitting Ginobili in the head with an elbow, a feat he duplicated against James Harden. He has a long and well-documented history of violence against civilians, loved ones and colleagues. Asshole is being kind. I'm sorry TJ, but I don't believe in celebrity makeovers. To paraphrase Gertrude Stein "an asshole is an asshole is an asshole". I believe that's true, even if they change their name to Mahatma Gandhi in the off-season.

3. In his last 10 games, Pau Gasol was 39% fg%, 7.9rpg and 11.3ppg. In the two games in January, he was 17%fg%, 6.5rpg and 6.5ppg. For the season, he's shooting 41%fg%, 8.5rpg and 12.2ppg. You watch a lot more Laker basketball than me, and are more qualified to talk about the intangibles he brings to the court, but his numbers have gone down since the beginning of the season when he had tendonitis, not up. http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/996/pau-gasol

4. I have a lot of respect for Gerry Buss. He's brilliant, self-made and has been successful at everything he has put his mind to so far. I don't feel the same way about his son. His son hired Mike Brown as his coach without consulting his superstar Kobe. Not very smart. He fired Brown because the defense he was promised didn't materialize. Fair enough, but it was Buss who signed an almost 39 year old Steve Nash, who has never been a good defender dating back to when dirt was young, to a 3 year contract. It was Buss who signed Antawn Jamison, even though Jamison has never been a good defender either. It was Buss who signed Jodie Meeks, a streak shooter but a fair defender at best. I could have called him "confused", "counter-intuitive" even "uncomprehensible", but Dim sounds so much like Jim I couldn't pass it up. I'm a poet and I don't even know it.

5. You're right, it is not Antoni's fault he has Jamison, it's Dimbo's. Dimbo shouldn't have signed Jamison because he wanted defense.

6. Sure, if Gasol and/or TAFKARA had a good game we wouldn't be talking about a lot of things. If Jeff Green, Jason Terry and Brandon Bass had been playing well we'd win more games too. Ifs and buts and candies and nuts. Howard has already lost several games for them with his free throw shooting.

7. Speaking of Howard, I'll bet that if you didn't read what I wrote and just saw the words "The Clown", you'd still have known exactly who I was talking about. Coincidence? I think not.



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Re: The Battle for LA

Post by cowens/oldschool on Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:59 pm

bob I agree asshole is too kind a word to use to describe TAFKARA....and there has been way more cheapshot incidents too numerous to name that you left out, but theres so many, its impossible to name them all....this guy talks about peace, he should have been in jail a long time ago.

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Re: The Battle for LA

Post by tjmakz on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:52 pm

Bob,

You probably use unflattering nicknames for Lakers players more then anyone here and many of your posts about the Lakers are pretty inaccurate unless they are general observations. With that being said, I more then welcome your comments at any time, whether I agree or disagree.

1) That is not truthful about why you call him KoME. Celtics fans view him as a selfish player. Celtics fans don't realize that his shots per game are about the amount of shots per game Larry Bird used to take. Is it better for Kobe or others to shoot the most?
2) MWP has earned his reputation. I rarely hear anything said about his game, just comments about his past actions. Boston's two of their three best players are widely viewed as A**holes. (KG and Rondo). Yes, I realize this is a Celtics forum and not the place to talk about KG and Rondo in disparaging terms.
3) Are you really going to highlight what Gasol did in two games in January? Yes, his numbers are down from last year. I don't think his knees are a big factor. His role in the offense and his determination to play hard are big factors in his downward trend. I still think most teams would love to have Gasol for the next 1 1/2 years. This is what George Karl said about Pau today: George Karl: “I think Pau Gasol is a hell of a basketball player.” All opposing coaches say this, & seem to be awaiting a + turnaround.
4) You continue to give no credit to Jim Buss for good trades and signings and bash him for other signings. If you read the account about how the Nash trade (not signing) went down, it was Kupchak who made that deal happen. Also, Kupchak is the one that negotiated with Jamison and Mitch even said that he didn't try too hard to negotiate with Jamison's agent because he didn't think Jamison would sign for the veterans minimum. Jamison averaged 17 ppg last season. Getting him for the veterans minimum was a steal for the Lakers. I would not be surprised if he is back in the rotation when (if) they trade Gasol. Gasol's lack of mobility has hurt Jamison becasue it is hard to have both of them on the floor at the same time. Meeks is on a 1 year guaranteed contract at only $1.5m. Many bench players in the league are underperforming including all on the Celtics bench other then Sullinger.
5) The Clown name has been mentioned here many times.

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Re: The Battle for LA

Post by worcester on Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:23 pm

Other than his incident with a hotel maid in Colorado (a BIG other), I have nothing bad to say about Kobe. His selfishness is almost always warranted and necessary. He plays with great courage, determination, and skill. I enjoy watching him immensely, and he's one of the great players in the history of the NBA. No MJ, but still great. I daresay most Celtics fans feel the same way.

Jim Buss = a great example of why being a self made man is so important. I don't envy him his position in life, making poor decisions on such a huge public stage, aggravated by his arrogance and disrespect for his betters. This would have never happened had he earned his job on merit rather than having inherited it.

TAFKARA - I pray for his recovery from a lifetime pattern of poor decision making and unkind acts toward others.

Pau Gasol - He's been such a great player for so long. I will never underestimate him and expect him to make significant contributions to the Lakers future success.

Dwight Howard - his best days are behind him, and noit as a player but as a person. He used to be very spiritually attuned and God centered. Lately he's gotten caught up in the fascination with self that comes with too much adulation, a difficult challenge for any of us at any age. I hope that he gain wisdom with the coming years. As for his basketball skills, he's got plenty. Too bad for him he's not being coached by Doc. He needs a real mentor in both his professional and personal lives.

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Re: The Battle for LA

Post by cowens/oldschool on Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:32 am

Lakers lost a tough one, they played their heart out, Nuggets just had a few too many oppurtunities to outrun the Lakers on the break that LA just couldn't overcome. When game slowed down, Lakers played smart, Kobe hit some amazing shots at end, but they just couldn't get over the hump. Denvers depth, speed and youth overcame Lakers experience and size, I really like Cory Brewer, hes finally coming into his own, Nuggets so deep at wing, center, point. Very entertaining game.

Cory Brewer was waived by Knicks a season or two ago, couldn't believe he was just waived like that. Another player that was there for the taking was JR Smith, who this year has finally stopped his penchant for dumb plays.....and I wish we still had Tony Allen, if we never lost him, we wouldn't have been so desperate to make the Jeff Green deal.

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Re: The Battle for LA

Post by bobheckler on Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:12 pm

tjmakz wrote:Bob,

You probably use unflattering nicknames for Lakers players more then anyone here and many of your posts about the Lakers are pretty inaccurate unless they are general observations. With that being said, I more then welcome your comments at any time, whether I agree or disagree.

1) That is not truthful about why you call him KoME. Celtics fans view him as a selfish player. Celtics fans don't realize that his shots per game are about the amount of shots per game Larry Bird used to take. Is it better for Kobe or others to shoot the most?
2) MWP has earned his reputation. I rarely hear anything said about his game, just comments about his past actions. Boston's two of their three best players are widely viewed as A**holes. (KG and Rondo). Yes, I realize this is a Celtics forum and not the place to talk about KG and Rondo in disparaging terms.
3) Are you really going to highlight what Gasol did in two games in January? Yes, his numbers are down from last year. I don't think his knees are a big factor. His role in the offense and his determination to play hard are big factors in his downward trend. I still think most teams would love to have Gasol for the next 1 1/2 years. This is what George Karl said about Pau today: George Karl: “I think Pau Gasol is a hell of a basketball player.” All opposing coaches say this, & seem to be awaiting a + turnaround.
4) You continue to give no credit to Jim Buss for good trades and signings and bash him for other signings. If you read the account about how the Nash trade (not signing) went down, it was Kupchak who made that deal happen. Also, Kupchak is the one that negotiated with Jamison and Mitch even said that he didn't try too hard to negotiate with Jamison's agent because he didn't think Jamison would sign for the veterans minimum. Jamison averaged 17 ppg last season. Getting him for the veterans minimum was a steal for the Lakers. I would not be surprised if he is back in the rotation when (if) they trade Gasol. Gasol's lack of mobility has hurt Jamison becasue it is hard to have both of them on the floor at the same time. Meeks is on a 1 year guaranteed contract at only $1.5m. Many bench players in the league are underperforming including all on the Celtics bench other then Sullinger.
5) The Clown name has been mentioned here many times.



TJ,

You think I'm more disparaging towards the Lakers than Cowens and Beat? I'm not sure how to wrap my mind around that.

1. You have mentioned several times that Kobe's fgas are comparable to Bird's. Today I had a little time to look into that claim.

Kobe has taken 23,432 fgas in his career. In all the years he has been with the Lakers, the team has taken 106,332 fgas. That means that Kobe Bryant has taken 22% of all the fgas taken by the Lakers while he has been in the league. In Kobe's rookie year, he didn't play much, only 15.5mpg, and took 422fgas. In his sophomore year he played more, 26.0mpg, and took 913 fgas. These numbers are far below his norm. If you take those two years out of the total, and subtract the team's fgas for those same two years, to see what impact Kobe has in years where he has been the leader of the team, you now have him taking 23.7% of all the fgas taken by the Lakers. That's almost 1 shot out of every 4 is by Kobe. The Lakers, not including the strike shortened 1998-1999, 2011-2012 seasons and this partial season, have averaged 6743 fgas/full season. Kobe has averaged 19.6fgas/game, 19.3/36mpg. Now, for Bird.

Bird took 17,334 fgas in his shorter career. In all the years he was playing, the Celtics took 94,098 fgas total (fewer years, lower totals). Unlike Kobe, Bird started and played heavy minutes from day one, so all his numbers are representative of his career. Bird averaged 18.4% of the Celtics total fgas. There's a big difference between 18.4% and 22% and an even bigger one between 23.7% and 18.4%. Bird averaged 19.3fgas/game (there's the similarity you refer to), but only 18.7/36mpg. Bird averaged more minutes/game than Kobe, so of course his numbers were higher total, but his fgas/minute are lower. The key difference, however, is that Bird's Celtics averaged 7238 fgas/season. He took a lower % of his team's shots than Kobe, he took fewer shots/game both straight up and /minute of play and his team took a lot more shots than Kobe's. So, I think the claim that Bird took as many of his team's shots as Kobe's is misleading since it ignores his greater number of minutes/game, includes two years of Kobe's where he was playing bench minutes which dilute his numbers and doesn't take into account the greater volume of shooting Bird's team did.

Furthermore, Bird led his team in rebounds too and was consistently the league leader in assists and steals for a forward. His style of play elevated the play of every player on the floor with him, regardless of whether it was the beginning of the game or if he was playing with the 2nd unit. That was also true of Magic and Jordan. Is that true of Kobe? Does everybody's game step up when he's on the floor because of his style of play?

2. TAFKARA's play has made him the most suspended player in NBA history. If you can't play, you are a subtraction from your team, not an addition (injuries don't count, they are part of the game and are not intended). If you are suspended because you bring a gun into the locker room, like Arenas, you have hurt your team. TAFKARA missed games because he was in jail. TAFKARA missed a playoff game because of his play against Ginobili. TAFKARA was suspended for 7 games, missing the rest of the playoffs, because of his play against Harden. Didn't his play hurt the Lakers then? You can't help your team if you aren't allowed in the arena because of your play or your personality. Making believe that the only thing that matters is what he does on the court, and ignore the things he does that take him off the court, is short-sighted. At best. At worst, it's condoning thuggery just because he's your thug. I know you're not condoning thuggery, I just think you have your purple-and-gold goggles on, just as we have our green goggles on.

3. Gasol is a great player. The reason I mentioned February was to highlight a trend. You said his play has improved since he came back. Gasol's numbers are better season-to-date than they are over his last 10 games, which were better than his last two games. That says that he has not played better after he came back. Yes, a lot of teams would like to have him. I'd like to have him. How about Green, Bass and Barbosa for Gasol?

4. Jim Buss fired Mike Brown because the defense didn't improve. You say Kupchak's the deal-maker on Nash? Fine. Let's say that Nash's floor generalship out-weighed his well-known defensive liabilities and that's why Buss acquiesced. That still doesn't explain the Jamison and Meeks signings. You don't improve a team's defense by signing a bunch of players that are average-to-below-average defenders. What was Buss thinking, that Brown could make a silk purse out of a couple of sow's ears? If you want better defense you have to sign defensive players AND have a coach whose teams haven't consistently been at the bottom of the league in defense. Signing mediocre defenders (I'm being generous to the point of philanthropic towards Jamison here) and expecting better defense is a mistake. Signing a coach with a rep for poor defensive teams and expecting better defense is a mistake.

"Underperforming bench players" is a comment that should be put into context and not be confused with a "mistake". The Boston Celtics are a defense-first team. "Stops" might be Doc's favorite word in the whole english language. Courtney Lee is a defense-first player. His much ballyhooed corner 3 hasn't dropped this year so far. That might be a disappointment, but it doesn't make signing him a mistake, because his skillsets match up well with the team's focus on defense. Same with Bradley, hardly an offensive juggernaut, but he is a defensive stopper and, on a defense-first team, that is appreciated. Sullinger's offense isn't there, but he's rebounding like a fiend. That's what we drafted him for, that's what we asked him to do. Signing him is not a mistake because he is doing what the team is asking him to do and his focus and skillsets are in line with the team's needs and efforts to do better on the boards. Recognizing we are weak on rebounding and then drafting someone who isn't a good rebounder would have been a mistake by Danny Ainge and Wyc. We have underperforming players on the Celtics bench, absolutely, but calling signing or drafting them a mistake (which is a reflection on the front office) would require pointing out how they are just not the right kind of players for this team.

Did Buss sign Jamison and Meeks for their offense? If so, how could he expect better defense from Brown's team? If he signed them for their defense, then he's dim. That was not, and is not, their fortes. Do you want plow horses or racehorses? If you want a workhorse, don't get last year's Kentucky Derby winner. If you want to win the derby, don't unhook Ol' Bessie from the plow and take it to Churchill Downs. Those would be managerial mistakes, not the fault of the jockeys or of the guy behind the plow.


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Re: The Battle for LA

Post by tjmakz on Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:25 pm

Bob,

Are you disparaging more then Cowens and Beat? No to Cowens but maybe with Beat. Beat doesn't make many comments about the Lakers other then he hates them.
I was looking at the shots per game between Kobe and Bird.
They are almost identical.
If we are going to factor in the percentage of their teams shots they take, shouldn't we factor in the players they played with? I think that Bird played with much better players then Kobe has. Would Kobe shoot as much as he does if he had DJ, McHale, Parish, Ainge, Wedman, Maxwell, Gerald Henderson and other good scorers/shooters on his team? You will never hear me bash Bird. I hated how great he was. To me, he is the best forward in the history of the NBA. Maybe him and Robertson, but I never saw Oscar play. Yes, Bird did make others better. The only thing that he didn't do well was on the defensive side. Being so smart made up for his defensive liabilities. Jordan took games over like Kobe does and shot an unbelievable amount of fga's in so many games.

I am not defending MWP for his actions that have hurt his teams. He has had some of the worst on the court infractions in the history of the league. The Lakers did/do not condone his actions. While he is under contract, you try to live with whatever comes. Outside of waiving him, there is not much they can do. Boston signed Delonte after his gun arrest and signed Rasheed knowing he was probably the worst character guy in the league and he would hurt the team with technicals and ejections.

Gasol is not the same player he was a few years ago. Much of his issues come from having a motor that doesn't push him. Gasol stunk in the playoffs the last two years. That was not because he was injured. Gasol was a very/very good player, now he is a good/very good player. I think he could help a contending team like the Celtics or a team like Houston or Minnesota to get to a next level and to keep their fans motivated. I see no reason why a team like Toronto would have any interest in him. If I was running the Lakers, I would say no to a trade of Gasol for Green, Bass and Barbosa. I don't want to tie up the payroll with Green and Bass' $15m salaries over the next 3 years.

There is one big thing that you don't factor in when it comes to the Lakers signings this year. The Lakers were so far over the cap, all they could sign players to was the veterans minimum or the mini mid-level exception. The Lakers have better defenders sitting on their bench, but they are not very good players. Earl Clark and Johnson-Odom are very good defenders and Ebanks is a good defender. If you can think of better players the Lakers should have signed for minimum money other then Jamison and Meeks, I am all ears. On every website that had rankings, the Lakers always received an A in the summer transactions and almost every time were ranked with having the best off-season out of the 30 teams.

If Boston is a defensive team first (which I agree they are), why did they sign Jason Terry? He is a terrible defensive player. Why did they give Bass 3 more years? Why did they sign Barbosa? Was Milicic signed because he is a defensive presence? Are they the right kind of players for the Celtics system? Sometimes teams have to sign the best players available. That's what Boston and the Lakers did. One difference is that Boston had much more flexibility about who they could sign or trade for. Not everybody fits perfectly into a teams system. You try to highlight their strengths.

Players like Meeks, Jamison, Barbosa, Terry do not usually win and lose many games for their teams. Kobe, Gasol, Howard, Rondo, Pierce and Garnett are the players that win most of the games. The Lakers won many titles with a weak bench and in their 2009 and 2010 championships, their bench was dreadful.

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Re: The Battle for LA

Post by tjmakz on Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:31 pm

As a blow to an already very disappointing season, Dwight Howard is out for at least 1 week with a torn labrum in his right shoulder and Gasol will miss at least the next two games with a concussion...


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Re: The Battle for LA

Post by tardust on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:21 am

tjmakz wrote:Bob,

Are you disparaging more then Cowens and Beat? No to Cowens but maybe with Beat. Beat doesn't make many comments about the Lakers other then he hates them.
I was looking at the shots per game between Kobe and Bird.
They are almost identical.
If we are going to factor in the percentage of their teams shots they take, shouldn't we factor in the players they played with? I think that Bird played with much better players then Kobe has. Would Kobe shoot as much as he does if he had DJ, McHale, Parish, Ainge, Wedman, Maxwell, Gerald Henderson and other good scorers/shooters on his team? You will never hear me bash Bird. I hated how great he was. To me, he is the best forward in the history of the NBA. Maybe him and Robertson, but I never saw Oscar play. Yes, Bird did make others better. The only thing that he didn't do well was on the defensive side. Being so smart made up for his defensive liabilities. Jordan took games over like Kobe does and shot an unbelievable amount of fga's in so many games.

I am not defending MWP for his actions that have hurt his teams. He has had some of the worst on the court infractions in the history of the league. The Lakers did/do not condone his actions. While he is under contract, you try to live with whatever comes. Outside of waiving him, there is not much they can do. Boston signed Delonte after his gun arrest and signed Rasheed knowing he was probably the worst character guy in the league and he would hurt the team with technicals and ejections.

Gasol is not the same player he was a few years ago. Much of his issues come from having a motor that doesn't push him. Gasol stunk in the playoffs the last two years. That was not because he was injured. Gasol was a very/very good player, now he is a good/very good player. I think he could help a contending team like the Celtics or a team like Houston or Minnesota to get to a next level and to keep their fans motivated. I see no reason why a team like Toronto would have any interest in him. If I was running the Lakers, I would say no to a trade of Gasol for Green, Bass and Barbosa. I don't want to tie up the payroll with Green and Bass' $15m salaries over the next 3 years.

There is one big thing that you don't factor in when it comes to the Lakers signings this year. The Lakers were so far over the cap, all they could sign players to was the veterans minimum or the mini mid-level exception. The Lakers have better defenders sitting on their bench, but they are not very good players. Earl Clark and Johnson-Odom are very good defenders and Ebanks is a good defender. If you can think of better players the Lakers should have signed for minimum money other then Jamison and Meeks, I am all ears. On every website that had rankings, the Lakers always received an A in the summer transactions and almost every time were ranked with having the best off-season out of the 30 teams.

If Boston is a defensive team first (which I agree they are), why did they sign Jason Terry? He is a terrible defensive player. Why did they give Bass 3 more years? Why did they sign Barbosa? Was Milicic signed because he is a defensive presence? Are they the right kind of players for the Celtics system? Sometimes teams have to sign the best players available. That's what Boston and the Lakers did. One difference is that Boston had much more flexibility about who they could sign or trade for. Not everybody fits perfectly into a teams system. You try to highlight their strengths.

Players like Meeks, Jamison, Barbosa, Terry do not usually win and lose many games for their teams. Kobe, Gasol, Howard, Rondo, Pierce and Garnett are the players that win most of the games. The Lakers won many titles with a weak bench and in their 2009 and 2010 championships, their bench was dreadful.

In case you didn't know it Robertson played guard, not forward.

Oscar Palmer Robertson (born November 24, 1938), nicknamed "The Big O", is a retired American National Basketball Association player with the Cincinnati Royals and Milwaukee Bucks.[1] The 6-foot-5, 220-pound [2] Robertson played the shooting guard/point guard position, and was a twelve-time All-Star, eleven-time member of the All-NBA Team, and one-time winner of the MVP award in fourteen professional seasons. He is the only player in NBA history to average a triple-double for a season.[3] He was a key player on the team which brought the Bucks their only NBA title in the 1970–71 NBA season. His playing career, especially during high school and college, was plagued by racism.[3]

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Re: The Battle for LA

Post by tjmakz on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:59 am

Thanks tardust. I thought Oscar was a SF.

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Re: The Battle for LA

Post by worcester on Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:54 pm

I saw him play live at the old Garden, 2nd row, when I was age 13. Those guys were enormous to me then.

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Re: The Battle for LA

Post by bobheckler on Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:36 pm

tjmakz wrote:Bob,

Are you disparaging more then Cowens and Beat? No to Cowens but maybe with Beat. Beat doesn't make many comments about the Lakers other then he hates them.
I was looking at the shots per game between Kobe and Bird.
They are almost identical.
If we are going to factor in the percentage of their teams shots they take, shouldn't we factor in the players they played with? I think that Bird played with much better players then Kobe has. Would Kobe shoot as much as he does if he had DJ, McHale, Parish, Ainge, Wedman, Maxwell, Gerald Henderson and other good scorers/shooters on his team? You will never hear me bash Bird. I hated how great he was. To me, he is the best forward in the history of the NBA. Maybe him and Robertson, but I never saw Oscar play. Yes, Bird did make others better. The only thing that he didn't do well was on the defensive side. Being so smart made up for his defensive liabilities. Jordan took games over like Kobe does and shot an unbelievable amount of fga's in so many games.

I am not defending MWP for his actions that have hurt his teams. He has had some of the worst on the court infractions in the history of the league. The Lakers did/do not condone his actions. While he is under contract, you try to live with whatever comes. Outside of waiving him, there is not much they can do. Boston signed Delonte after his gun arrest and signed Rasheed knowing he was probably the worst character guy in the league and he would hurt the team with technicals and ejections.

Gasol is not the same player he was a few years ago. Much of his issues come from having a motor that doesn't push him. Gasol stunk in the playoffs the last two years. That was not because he was injured. Gasol was a very/very good player, now he is a good/very good player. I think he could help a contending team like the Celtics or a team like Houston or Minnesota to get to a next level and to keep their fans motivated. I see no reason why a team like Toronto would have any interest in him. If I was running the Lakers, I would say no to a trade of Gasol for Green, Bass and Barbosa. I don't want to tie up the payroll with Green and Bass' $15m salaries over the next 3 years.

There is one big thing that you don't factor in when it comes to the Lakers signings this year. The Lakers were so far over the cap, all they could sign players to was the veterans minimum or the mini mid-level exception. The Lakers have better defenders sitting on their bench, but they are not very good players. Earl Clark and Johnson-Odom are very good defenders and Ebanks is a good defender. If you can think of better players the Lakers should have signed for minimum money other then Jamison and Meeks, I am all ears. On every website that had rankings, the Lakers always received an A in the summer transactions and almost every time were ranked with having the best off-season out of the 30 teams.

If Boston is a defensive team first (which I agree they are), why did they sign Jason Terry? He is a terrible defensive player. Why did they give Bass 3 more years? Why did they sign Barbosa? Was Milicic signed because he is a defensive presence? Are they the right kind of players for the Celtics system? Sometimes teams have to sign the best players available. That's what Boston and the Lakers did. One difference is that Boston had much more flexibility about who they could sign or trade for. Not everybody fits perfectly into a teams system. You try to highlight their strengths.

Players like Meeks, Jamison, Barbosa, Terry do not usually win and lose many games for their teams. Kobe, Gasol, Howard, Rondo, Pierce and Garnett are the players that win most of the games. The Lakers won many titles with a weak bench and in their 2009 and 2010 championships, their bench was dreadful.


TJ,

In the Laker Championship years of 99-02, Kobe took 17.3%, 22.6% and 23.4% of the Lakers' total fgas respectively.

In the dog year of 04-05, where they finished 34-48 on the season, Kobe took 19.3%, but he only played 66 games that year.

In 05-06 (Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm, Jim Jackson, Devean George, Smush Parker and other non-illuminaries, but had Sasha and Lamar and Von Wafer for fellow shooters), they finished a very respectable 45-27, Kobe took 32.8%. He also played 80 games and averaged 41.0mpg.

In 06-07 (42-40), averaged 40.8mpg and he took 26.4% of all fgas.

In the Laker Championship years of 08-10, he took 24.5% and 22.8% respectively.

So, it would appear that in the few years when the Lakers didn't surround him with talent Kobe did shoot more as a % of the team's total. However, even in the Championship years, surrounded by talent like every other championship team needs to be, he still took a high % of the team's fgas. He is a volume shooter, the only question is how much volume. In the two Lakers Championship runs he still took quite a bit more of the team's fgas than Bird did.


bob


.


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Re: The Battle for LA

Post by tjmakz on Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:47 pm

bob,

Kobe's championship teams didn't have (in my opinion) anywhere close to the talent the Bulls, Celtics or Magic's Johnson's Lakers teams had. I looked at the 2001-02 Lakers team and besides Shaq and Kobe, only Derek Fisher (11.2 ppg) averaged at least 8 ppg. The 2008-09 Lakers had Kobe, Pau, who was nowhere near the player Shaq was, and Odom who played a nice role but was never a star. I think part of the reason why Jordan and Kobe have taken many shots is becasue they never played with point guards that could lead their offense. Kobe and Jordan are similar in many ways, one of which is that they are a scorer first. They are also great at doing so. Magic, Bird, even LeBron don't have the same mindset that Jordan and Kobe do.

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Re: The Battle for LA

Post by sam on Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:54 pm

TJ,

Just because the Celtics are a defensive team first doesn't mean they're a defensive team only. They're allowed to add offensive players, especially because their offense over the past few years has produced far less often than their defense.

I know it's difficult concept for fans of some teams to fathom, but the Celtics' defensive system is a team effort that is designed, in part, to be able to incorporate occasional players who are not necessarily individual defensive geniuses. That's why the Celts can take small risks in signing such players.

By the way, I notice that you omitted Lee from your list of "terrible" defensive players signed by the Celtics.

I believe Bass' defense has improved since Doc assigned him to cover Lebron in a playoff game last season. He can't magically grow a couple of inches, but his defensive instincts/techniques/timing have improved.

As far as Terry is concerned, I'm not at all sold on his value to the club, although I don't recall a lot of negative gasps on this board when he was signed. As it's turning out, I could argue that Barbosa gives the Celtics more of the instant offensive energy they thought Terry would provide. And Leandro's speed, alone, gives him a defensive edge over Terry, although JET can astonish with the occasional heady defensive move.

Sam

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Re: The Battle for LA

Post by tjmakz on Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:30 pm

Sam,

I was replying to Bob's bashing of the son of 'Gerry' Buss which I pasted below. Bob was bashing Jimmy about the signing of Meeks, Nash and Jamison, all of whom are considered to be subpar defenders. I used the Celtics as a comparison as Bob did with the Lakers to show that teams have to sign the best players available, even if they don't fit into their schemes. Terry, Bass and Barbosa are non defensive minded players, the same as Nash, Meeks and Jamison aren't. So, why would Bob or anyone else bash Jim Buss (who wasn't involved almost at all in the Nash and Jamison transactions) and not bash other GM's who don't sign players that aren't a great fit. Those 3 Lakers signings were all viewed as being positive transactions this summer, yet Bob chose to say this about Jim Buss: I could have called him "confused", "counter-intuitive" even "uncomprehensible", but Dim sounds so much like Jim I couldn't pass it up. That's a little unfair or Monday morning quarterbackish if you ask me.

4. I have a lot of respect for Gerry Buss. He's brilliant, self-made and has been successful at everything he has put his mind to so far. I don't feel the same way about his son. His son hired Mike Brown as his coach without consulting his superstar Kobe. Not very smart. He fired Brown because the defense he was promised didn't materialize. Fair enough, but it was Buss who signed an almost 39 year old Steve Nash, who has never been a good defender dating back to when dirt was young, to a 3 year contract. It was Buss who signed Antawn Jamison, even though Jamison has never been a good defender either. It was Buss who signed Jodie Meeks, a streak shooter but a fair defender at best. I could have called him "confused", "counter-intuitive" even "uncomprehensible", but Dim sounds so much like Jim I couldn't pass it up. I'm a poet and I don't even know it.

"Underperforming bench players" is a comment that should be put into context and not be confused with a "mistake". The Boston Celtics are a defense-first team. "Stops" might be Doc's favorite word in the whole english language. Courtney Lee is a defense-first player. His much ballyhooed corner 3 hasn't dropped this year so far. That might be a disappointment, but it doesn't make signing him a mistake, because his skillsets match up well with the team's focus on defense. Same with Bradley, hardly an offensive juggernaut, but he is a defensive stopper and, on a defense-first team, that is appreciated. Sullinger's offense isn't there, but he's rebounding like a fiend. That's what we drafted him for, that's what we asked him to do. Signing him is not a mistake because he is doing what the team is asking him to do and his focus and skillsets are in line with the team's needs and efforts to do better on the boards. Recognizing we are weak on rebounding and then drafting someone who isn't a good rebounder would have been a mistake by Danny Ainge and Wyc. We have underperforming players on the Celtics bench, absolutely, but calling signing or drafting them a mistake (which is a reflection on the front office) would require pointing out how they are just not the right kind of players for this team.


I didn't categorize Lee as being a terrible defensive player because he is known to be a good defensive player. I have thought that having 5 guards that are all good players was over-kill, especially with Boston being weak in the middle, but all along I have felt that one of those guards will be used in a trade for a big man. I still feel that one of the 5 will be traded by the trade deadline.

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Re: The Battle for LA

Post by sam on Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:17 pm

TJ,

I responded because I don't believe it means the same thing if the Celtics trade for an offensively minded player than if the Lakers do. The Celtics can afford it better. But it's no big deal either way.

I expect you could be right about a Celtics small man being traded. I doubt it would be Barbosa unless he's an equalizer in a trade; otherwise, I just hope it won't be Rondo, Bradlee or Lee.

Sam

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