2 Crowded at 2?

http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/9500864/boston-celtics-need-break-logjam-guard


Breaking down Celtics' guard logjam
Updated: July 23, 2013, 7:44 AM ET
By Chris Forsberg | ESPNBoston.com



The Boston Celtics have a logjam at the shooting guard position, the sort that makes a summer Friday on the Bourne Bridge seem tepid by comparison.

The Celtics essentially have five players -- a third of a 15-man roster -- at the off-guard spot and president of basketball operations Danny Ainge hasn't been bashful in admitting that something probably has to give.

The combination of Courtney Lee's spotty season and his $5.2 million salary could mean he won't last.
The team currently has $16.2 million committed to those five players: Avery Bradley, Keith Bogans, MarShon Brooks, Courtney Lee and Jordan Crawford. As the team looks to trim salary and add at other spots of need, it seems inevitable that the Celtics will pour some Drano at the 2 guard. Let's run down the personnel and where the players stand at the moment:

* THE STARTER: Bradley got thrust outside of his comfort zone a bit last season. Coming off double shoulder surgery that caused him to miss the first 30 games of the season while rehabbing, Bradley was forced to handle the ball more when point guard Rajon Rondo tore his ACL. His struggles to facilitate the offense became a bit of a mental hurdle and Bradley's offensive game suffered because of it. While the Celtics hope he can rediscover his perimeter shooting, his defense is a game-changer and the reason he's atop the depth chart. The 22-year-old Bradley is reasonably priced at $2.5 million, though the team must decide soon if he's the shooting guard of the future. Hop HERE for more on Bradley.

* THE VETERAN: One of five players received from the Nets in the Paul Pierce-Kevin Garnett trade, Bogans brings a decade of experience at the swingman spot. He is by no means an elite defender (last season he allowed 0.936 points per play, which ranked him in the 17th percentile among all NBA players, according to defensive stats logged by Synergy Sports). But he's a gritty defender who isn't afraid to give a hard foul and will be a good veteran presence for Boston's younger guards. Bogans cashed in by facilitating the Celtics-Nets blockbuster via sign-and-trade and will make $5.1 million next season, but the final two years of his deal are nonguaranteed, which make him a valuable trade asset down the road. Hop HERE for more on Bogans.

* THE YOUNG GUN: While most of the players acquired from the Nets may not be long for Boston (Kris Joseph already was waived), Brooks should get a chance to assert himself. Coming back to the team that drafted him 25th overall in 2011, Brooks is hoping more playing time will help him take his game to another level. He averaged 12.6 points over 29.4 minutes per game as a rookie, then struggled to get off the bench last season. He's never been a particularly efficient scorer, but he'll get a chance to flourish in quality minutes off the Boston bench, so long as he buys in on both ends of the floor. Hop HERE for more on Brooks.

* LIMBOLAND: That leaves Lee and Crawford facing a bit of uncertainty. Let's take them individually.

The 27-year-old Lee was believed to be the heist of the 2012 offseason as Boston worked a creative sign-and-trade package in which it dumped some end-of-the-bench nonguaranteed salaries while signing Lee to mid-level money as part of a four-year contract. Lee arrived with a reputation for "3 and D," but struggled with his 3-point shot and was inconsistent on defense. Late in the season he sprained his ankle and fell out of the rotation, logging just 9.8 minutes per game in four playoff appearances.

In an ideal world, Lee, a popular player among his peers and a hard worker, would get another chance to assert himself in Boston. But the cluttered depth chart and his position-high salary ($5.2 million) leave him in the crosshairs a bit. Despite a down year last season, he's still an attractive option for other teams, which could make him the odd man out if Boston gets an attractive offer that could bring back future assets. For his part, Lee said earlier this month that he's just working hard, hoping to get a chance to redeem himself in Boston.

The Celtics brought in Crawford at February's trade deadline in order to fill a need for an offensive-minded guard in hopes of aiding their late-season push. With Boston ushering in a youth movement, one has to wonder if the 25-year-old is still part of the picture. While he showed better passing skills than expected, his shot selection was as questionable as advertised, and the addition of Brooks makes him a bit superfluous (and more expensive at $2.2 million next season). Crawford was a nonfactor in the postseason and only drew headlines for barking at Carmelo Anthony after a Game 5 DNP.

Now standing on the luxury tax apron, the Celtics have 16 signed players after finalizing deals Monday with undrafted point guard Phil Pressey (a low-cost option to back up Rondo) and Brazilian center Victor Faverani, who brings center size to a power forward-heavy frontcourt. There's also second-round pick Colton Iverson, who could end up overseas if Boston doesn't have roster space for him. The team has only one nonguaranteed deal at the moment in Shavlik Randolph, whose contract becomes fully guaranteed on Aug. 1.

Boston doesn't necessarily have to trim guard depth if it can move a high-priced power forward instead (Kris Humphries or Brandon Bass are the most expensive). But it wouldn't be a surprise to see Crawford included in any move the Celtics make, particularly if they elect to give Lee another shot to establish himself as part of the team's young core.

As Ainge noted last week, "I think everything is in flux. There's some decisions and some choices that we're going to have to make over the next few months."


bob


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Jordan Crawford is quite expendable. I hope he's traded.

Courtney Lee is too but I wouldn't be opposed to him staying. But he'd better play up to expectations.

Bogans and Brooks... guess we'll see. I haven't really watched them, I've only looked at stats.

Bradley is awesome.

KJ

I like the creative title here Bob!

My guess is Crawford and Lee go (along with Bass from last year's roster holdovers) if Danny can find takers.  Production and money would seem to point them toward the exit.

I would expect Brooks could push Bradley for starters minutes depending on the approach on the offensive end.  Bogans could provide some bench support this season.

At least that's based on the present roster.  With more moves always possible we could also end up with a backcourt not presently on the roster!

NYCelt,

Lee and Bass will go because of their contract size (medium) and the logjam at their positions.  Crawford goes because of his previous time in the league and someone will want him (please, anyone?) for his skillset.

Brooks stays because he can be sent to Maine instead of collecting splinters on the bench.  He can keep Fab company.  Brooks needs to develop a little before he pushes Bradley for starters minutes.  IMO, Bradley's shooting woes diminish because both shoulders will have had time to recover totally from surgery and we will all rejoice!! (LOL)

Bogans can't be traded until mid-December.  His 2nd and 3rd years are not guaranteed, so he will make the opening day roster but may be gone by the trading deadline.

As you say, this is all based on the present roster.  Things could change quickly, depending upon Danny's first trade.

gyso

Gyso,

Brooks will be a third-year player this season. How can he be assigned to the DL?

Sam

Sam,

Under the new CBA:

For 2012-13 and later, players with 0-2 years' experience can be assigned at any time. Players with three or more years' experience can be assigned if both the player and the union consent.

gyso

Sam and Gyso,

My 100% confident call that answers you both is that there's no need to concern ourselves with the NBADL rules on this one as it applies to Brooks.

At worst Brooks is first guard off the bench for us this year.  I make the odds even that he starts at 2-guard before I even know what kind of offense we're going to have. I'll extend a straddle to cover that second statement to mean 50% shot of Brooks starting at 2 with Bradley at 1 if Rondo doesn't make the opener, or starting at 2 with Bradley first guard off the bench if Rondo makes it for game 1.

Book first guard off the bench as my fearless prediction with complete freedom to remind me of it with an "I told you so" if I'm wrong.

Regards

From what I understand, and I have NOT watched him play much myself, Marshon Brooks is Jordan Crawford with even less defense.


bob


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http://hoopshype.com/players/marshon_brooks.htm

http://hoopshype.com/players/jordan_crawford.htm

http://www.celticsblog.com/2013/6/30/4480304/scouting-report-on-ex-nets-joining-the-celtics-from-a-nets-blogger


bob


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bobheckler wrote:From what I understand, and I have NOT watched him play much myself, Marshon Brooks is Jordan Crawford with even less defense.


bob


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I'm on record as saying Jordan Crawford is a less talented Ricky Davis without the cool hair.

I figure if we have a SF tandem that plays great D (Wallace and Green), but less O, we may be looking to that 2 guard spot to hit some buckets.  I think Brooks can provide that with more consistency than Ricky Lite, which the three links BobH provides seem to bear out.  Brooks has arguably not been in the right situation yet. Watching the way those Gonzaga guards have been coached and played, I think this is going to be the right place for Brooks to be.

NYCelt wrote:

bobheckler wrote:From what I understand, and I have NOT watched him play much myself, Marshon Brooks is Jordan Crawford with even less defense.


bob


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I'm on record as saying Jordan Crawford is a less talented Ricky Davis without the cool hair.

I figure if we have a SF tandem that plays great D (Wallace and Green), but less O, we may be looking to that 2 guard spot to hit some buckets.  I think Brooks can provide that with more consistency than Ricky Lite, which the three links BobH provides seem to bear out.  Brooks has arguably not been in the right situation yet.  Watching the way those Gonzaga guards have been coached and played, I think this is going to be the right place for Brooks to be.

NYCelt,

Jordan Crawford thinks he's the next Michael Jordan (it takes more than a common name for that, JC). I don't know about Brooks' ego, although I understand he was upset he fell into Avery and PJ's doghouse (not playing defense will do that). He's a 2nd year player, 2nd round draft pick by the Celtics who never even had a chance to wear the hat and smile for the cameras, and he's upset because he's not playing rotation minutes. I guess that's ego, huh?

Camp and pre-season, assuming both are still on the team, should be a regular shoot-out at the OK Corral as these two young guns "do what they do". No surprise here, right? What will be fun to watch (or read about) is how well AB and Lee shut them down. That's what it's all about with shooters, isn't it? How easily can they be thrown off their game, their rhythm?


bob


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bobheckler wrote: That's what it's all about with shooters, isn't it?  How easily can they be thrown off their game, their rhythm?


bob


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Bob,

I think you're on target there.

Regards

NYCelt,

It is funny that bobh wrote "Jordan Crawford thinks he's the next Michael Jordan" because I read that Marshon Brooks thinks he is the next Kobe Bryant. He has neither the touch, body control or athleticism to pull that one off.

With the Celtics at full strength (Rondo starting) Brooks is just not ready yet to be first guard off the bench, IMO. He has potential and is trainable, but it will take time. That is what the NBADL is for.

If we don't start the season at full strength, who knows, you may be right. I look forward to training camp to see how it all plays out.

gyso

Personally, I think all the conjecture about how musical the Celtics' chairs will be is premature. The likelihood is that the final training roster could be substantially different than it is now, and unfortunately, injuries could also play a role. The other day, I read that some NBA analyst (I can't recall) was saying that teams now need three PGs to compete. To me, that doesn't mean two legitimate PGs (one of them a rookie) and a relatively small guy who has no concept how to run a team.

Sam

It does not matter if brooks is the first guard off the bench or not.  We are afterall in a semi-rebuilding mode where the pups will have an opportunity to play, screw up and play some more.  Brooks certainly showed some promise as a rookie but just like Wallace, and Humphries bad coaching can make good players look bad.
 
As far as Crawford is concerend, I despise his game on every level and still scratch my head trying to figure out why DA traded for him. We are sitting on the luxury tax apron and the fault lies with our Master and lord, Mr Danny Ainge. 
 
This teram should not have to choose between keeping Randolph or signing Iverson or providing a longer learning opportunity for Melo.  But that is just where we are because DA gave up too much money to certain players and that has at the very least compromised the teams' short term roster flexibility.
 
dboss

dboss wrote:It does not matter if brooks is the first guard off the bench or not.  We are afterall in a semi-rebuilding mode where the pups will have an opportunity to play, screw up and play some more.  Brooks certainly showed some promise as a rookie but just like Wallace, and Humphries bad coaching can make good players look bad.
 
As far as Crawford is concerend, I despise his game on every level and still scratch my head trying to figure out why DA traded for him. We are sitting on the luxury tax apron and the fault lies with our Master and lord, Mr Danny Ainge. 
 
This teram should not have to choose between keeping Randolph or signing Iverson or providing a longer learning opportunity for Melo.  But that is just where we are because DA gave up too much money to certain players and that has at the very least compromised the teams' short term roster flexibility.
 
dboss

dboss,

If you remember, we got Crawford, whom I'm not a big fan of either, for Jason Collins (an occasional role player) and Barbosa, who was out for the rest of the season with an ACL. For a player whose game depends heavily on speed like Barbosa's, that's a really bad injury. We thought we had a shot last year and we needed a replacement for Blur, especially with Rondo already being gone and our guard corp decimated. I'd have preferred trading Blur and Collins for some kind of point guard, but...

bob


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hey bob

So I take it you disagree with me about DA's decison making as it relates to the Collins/barbosa ---Crawford transaction.

I think the decison was bad.  First we went into the season needing 3 things (a shooting guard, a BU PG and a BU center)  The shooting guard issue was addressed before the season started with the signing of Lee (mixed results on that one along with too much money)  Rondo went down in January  so in february we get rid of a center and take back  Crawford.  We should have kept Collins and we would not be looking at the $2.1 mill still owed Crawford.  That trade did nothing to help and did everything to hurt us.

This was just a bad decison by Ainge and unlike some people that refuse to recognize that Ainge makes plenty of errors I call it like I see it and when he makes a good decision I praise him for it. 

You are correct.  if we are giving up collins we at least needed to bring back a PG. 

Horrible decision  I would think.

dboss

dboss wrote:hey bob

So I take it you disagree with me about DA's decison making as it relates to the Collins/barbosa ---Crawford transaction.

I think the decison was bad.  First we went into the season needing 3 things (a shooting guard, a BU PG and a BU center)  The shooting guard issue was addressed before the season started with the signing of Lee (mixed results on that one along with too much money)  Rondo went down in January  so in february we get rid of a center and take back  Crawford.  We should have kept Collins and we would not be looking at the $2.1 mill still owed Crawford.  That trade did nothing to help and did everything to hurt us.

This was just a bad decison by Ainge and unlike some people that refuse to recognize that Ainge makes plenty of errors I call it like I see it and when he makes a good decision I praise him for it. 

You are correct.  if we are giving up collins we at least needed to bring back a PG. 

Horrible decision  I would think.

dboss

dboss,

Not being a fan of Crawford, it's hard to really stand up and defend that trade.  HOWEVER, the center we gave up was extremely limited in both ability, upside and minutes played.  Collins would be off the books now, but his salary wouldn't make that much of a difference in the bigger picture and his trade value now is zero (he's having trouble hooking up with a team.  Perhaps that's because he's come out, but he would have done that anyway).  Crawford has some trade value.  Some.

As far as what we started with last season, if you remember we had almost NO salary cap room.  It's hard to pull a rabbit out of your hat when you're working with squirrels.  Whatever that means.

As far as Courtney Lee goes, yeah, he was a mixed bag last year but look at who we got rid of to get him.  Jujuan Johnson?  Hell, he even stunk it up in summer league THIS year.  Sean Williams?  Immediately waived by the Rockets and is now in D-league.  E'tuan Moore?  He caught on in Orlando as the designated gunner, but only averaged .397fg% last year and plays very spotty defense and cannot run an offense to save his life.  I still like Courtney Lee better than all those guys combined and the rule of thumb is that if you come out of a trade with the best player, you won.  Besides, if we only agreed to pay Lee less, then the deal wouldn't have happened due to CBA salary matching requirements and we would have had at least two of those three players on the roster and I am VERY glad that didn't happen.

Danny doesn't hit a homerun everytime, but who does?  Houston, who just won the Howard Sweepstakes, used a #16 pick on Royce White.  He wouldn't even get on a plane!  Overall, though, I think Danny does well, I really do.

Bradley, Davis and Sully were all drafted by him.  How many Greg Odens, Kwame Browns and Olawakandis has he drafted?  Michael Kidd-Gilchrist was the #2 pick last year and they're shopping him now.  Thomas Robinson, who was projected to go #1 or 2, is having trouble finding his NBA game.  Yeah, I know he's never had a lottery pick to use, but considering he hasn't had any pick higher than 16...
He traded for Rondo and Powe.
He traded for KG and Ray.
He traded for Green.  You think Green's contract is too big, but if he plays with more consistency next year (not better, just more consistently), I would disagree with that.
He found Shav eating chop suey in China.
He didn't pay Posey that extra year he wanted and that's a good thing if you watched his game fall off the table the last 2 years of it.  You're upset with overpaying Green and Lee?  You'd be jumping right out of your skin if he had given Posey the contract New Orleans gave him and your head would have exploded if he had picked up Posey in his final dying-quail year like Indy did.  Danny played it smart.

We needed a SG heading into last year, true.  Did Lee fit the "shooting" part of that?  Not really.  Crawford does and, with Rondo and Barbosa down, we then needed offense from the guards badly.  The fact that Lee was good at season beginning is not the point, when the Crawford deal happened we needed different skill sets to replace (as much as possible) the loss of guard offense. Danny went with the combo guard approach, signing Lee and Barbosa.  This year, he's going with Pressey.  I don't know how well Pressey will do, but given our $ constraints he's all we can afford and even if Green had signed for $7M instead of $9M we wouldn't have gotten that much of an upgrade with that $ difference.  BU center?  We had Collins, Darko and Melo.  That's 4 deep at 5, including KG. Not bad, considering you've only got acorns to offer. Collins turned out to be very limited, Darko split and Melo is so far from ready he can't even see it from where he is but we started out with BU centers by the truckload.

The tendency is to focus on the mistakes.  That's how you improve, you look at where you are weak, but that's not life.  Mistakes are made, the question is how good are your hits?

I am NOT a fan of Melo's.  I wanted Danny to draft Festus Ezeli instead.  Ok, so that was a mistake.  I also wanted him to draft either Nicholson or Terrence Jones instead of Sully.  That was a mistake too, just on my part.  You want to keep Melo.  I must confess I don't understand that.  He has not advanced at all in a year of playing a lot of minutes and is NOT an NBA player.



bob


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bobheckler wrote:

It's hard to pull a rabbit out of your hat when you're working with squirrels.
.

Quote of the day.

BobH,

It became quickly obvious (perhaps even before the trade) that Crawford is not the kind of player who would be a likely impact player on a contender.  But he was a gunner on a team that needed a gunner.  Moreover, for a team trying the combo approach, I thought he was one of their best ball distributors (if not THE best) after he arrived.  For all his inconsistency, he might have made a bit of THE difference between holding their heads up as well as they did and crashing into dispair.  (Dboss, please note that I said A BIT of the difference, not nearly the entire difference.  Having said that, I'd now be happy to see him jettisoned with Fab Melo in return for Marcin Gortat.  That's not too much to ask is it?

For the ultra serious people: LOL, LOL, LOL.

Sam

Bob ....there is really no need to defend Dannyboy

I said when he makes good decisions I praise him. And I would not want to bore you with all the questionable decisions that he has made so I promise not to make my hit list of questionable moves. I am not comparing him to any other GM. He has obviously done some good things.

I was really talking about Crawford. And while Jason was not a very productive big, I thought he added something that we needed. Crawford made a few passes and a few (And 1) shots but otherwise he ran around like a freakin nut.

Danny never added a backup (legit) PG. That was a big mistake and he did absolutely nothing during the season to correct that problem. After Rondo was injured 1/25, the Celtics became the ONLY team in the entire NBA without a PG.

Now he wants to rid himself of Crawford but there are few takes. He will probably have to give up a pick or simply eat his contract.

Lets see how Danny fixes this one.

dboss

I agree with you on Crawford, guy is on his way out of the league.