Simmons' ramblings about a Love trade.

didn't see it posted here, but an interesting read I thought.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-nba-bag-volume-1/

key part:

OK, so what happens if Boston throws its shamrock-shaped Asset Penis on the table and trumps everybody? Let’s say the Celtics lose the 2014 lottery and end up with a pick between no. 3 and no. 5. They could send that pick to Minny along with Atlanta’s first-rounder (probably ending up in the 13-to-18 range) and their 2015 Clippers pick for Love. And they could throw in Brandon Bass and Keith Bogans’s immediately waivable deal to make the contracts work. Oh, and if Minnesota were more interested in one or more of those future Brooklyn picks that Boston owns (unprotected in 2016 and 2018, pick swap in 2017), the Celts could discuss that, too. Remember, they have a WAR CHEST of picks: 10 in five years, including Brooklyn’s draft right as they’re entering the “Deron and Joe are old and Brook Lopez wears a suit to every game” phase of the Prokhorov era. You team up Love and Rondo and suddenly it’s 10 times easier to land that third All-Star. (You reading, Carmelo?) And yes, that deal could potentially net the Timberwolves three top-15 picks in a monster draft. Odds of it happening: 3-to-1.

my take:

I could see Ainge doing it, though I would see something like our best 2014 pick, 2015 Clippers pick, one of the Nets future picks (three of our 10 first rounder's) and Sully, Bogans along with another player as needed to make the salary's work (if needed).

kdp,

It could easily be argued that Love's better than anyone the Celtics have in their unbalanced stock of power forwards.  However, at some point, the surplus of draft picks decreases; and, if that happens without having their having landed a really good center, they'll have less bait on that front.

I see on Basketball Reference that he's listed at PF and center. Would he be a solid enough center to fill the center position on a regular basis? If so, then I could see this hypothetical deal having some merit.

Sam

Love is California Dreamin'

Picking at # 3 is not losing

Jared Sullinger is our PF for the future and comes with a much smaller paycheck.

Love cannot play center and while he is an absolute beast on the glass and can put a lot of points on the board he will never be accused of being a good defender.

I think upgrading our PF position is NOT high on the priority list.

IMO

dboss

Love is basically like Sullinger with some more experience and a higher salary. That should tell you his usefulness as a center (nothing against Sully, but that is not his natural position).



KJ

All I want to know is "Can I get a shamrock-shaped Asset Penis?"

Where's Ebay when you really need it?


bob


.

Is this Simmons trying to play Celtics GM again? He was trying to get rid of Rondo all the way up to the trade deadline, and now he's swooning over a Rondo-Love partnership? And giving it 3-1 odds of actually happening? Does he actually believe what he writes? How much does he drink to forget all the pronouncements he made before that didn't come true?

There is nothing to indicate that Love would do this.

Sam, despite what basketball-reference.com says, Love is a power forward. He's relatively short (6' 7.75" without shoes), floor-bound, and has actually slimmed down rather than bulked up. He gets a whopping 0.4 blocks per game (or, more accurately, one block every 2.5 games). He's not an NBA center.

Wanting to get a legit Center to fill the paint in Boston would be ideal, but how many teams actually have a legit center?

The two time defending champs in Miami dont.  The Blazers dont, the Suns dont, the Mavericks dont, the The Warriors have one who is always hurt.

Love on the court with Rondo, Bradley, Green and Sully would be a formidable starting 5.

MrKleen,

I agree that would be a good starting five, but I disagree about most of the teams you say don't have a legit center. Miami is the only one I agree with.

Portland has Robin Lopez. The upgrade at center has freed Aldridge to spend most of his time at power forward. The addition of Lopez is a big reason behind their success this season.

The Suns split the center spot between Miles Plumlee, who has had a breakout season, and Channing Frye, who is more of a stretch four who can defend centers. Frye is probably who you're thinking of, because he's not what I'd call a legit center. But I point to Plumlee -- he rebounds, defends, and gets out on the break. All the runnin' and gunnin' by their perimeter players works much better with him grabbing rebounds and defending the rim. He averages 8.3 rebounds in 26 minutes per game, which translates to 11.4 per 36 minutes, and his total rebound rate of 17.4% is 16th-best in the league, right below Zach Randolph and above Al Jefferson, Sullinger, Pau Gasol, and LaMarcus Aldridge. His 79 blocks ties him with Joakim Noah at 14th best while playing fewer minutes. Plumlee presence as a legit center is one of the reasons behind the Suns surprising success.

The Mavs have Samuel Dalembert. He may not be the greatest center in the world, but he's a legit center.

Bogut's played 50 of 58 games. Just because the games he's missed have been recent doesn't mean he's "always hurt." And he's a legit center.

Boston would be in vastly better position if they had any of the legit center options that Portland, Phoenix, Dallas, and Golden State have.

mrkleen09 wrote:Wanting to get a legit Center to fill the paint in Boston would be ideal, but how many teams actually have a legit center?

The two time defending champs in Miami dont.  The Blazers dont, the Suns dont, the Mavericks dont, the The Warriors have one who is always hurt.

Love on the court with Rondo, Bradley, Green and Sully would be a formidable starting 5.

Only difference is Miami has James, Wade, Bosh, and a surrounding cast of experienced veteran players. The Blazers, Suns, and Mavericks are all playoff teams, but do they have what it takes to get to the title match? Are their other players good enough to more than compensate for the lack of a true center? I don't know, but my gut tells me probably not.

Sure, Boston would be a formidable team with Love and Sullinger in the post, but I don't know if this is the particular recipe the Celtics should strive for in building a championship team. Personally, I think Indiana has the right idea in that they brought Hibbert along for a few years and now he's one of the best centers in the league and they have a great shot at winning the title having gained another year of playing together.

It may not seem like it now, but I think centers are making a return to prominence in the NBA. There's already a solid number of pretty good centers in this league (Hibbert, Howard, Noah, Jordan, Asik, Pekovic, Bogut, Lopez bros to name a few), more so than in the past few years.



KJ

Back up a little bit.

A warm body who is 6' 10" or taller does not equal a legit center.  Sully can handle all but the biggest most talented guys at the position - and I have no fear that Robin Lopez, Plumlee, Andrew Bogut, Pekovic or even Jordan is going to overwhelm him or Hump for that matter. 

Hump just dealt very well with Cousins - and Plumlee scored 4 points and only played 20 minutes - hardly a legit center.

The Celtics need for a big man is more to sure up the defensive end of the court and protect the rim - but again, they can work around this if they have enough talent on the court.

When the meet up with Indiana / Houston / San Antonio, sure they are at a disadvantage - but Kevin Love drilling 3 pointers with someone like Asik or Anthony Davis trying to check him, is advantage Celtics all day long.

Bottom line - you get a chance to get Kevin Love - you do.

mrkleen09 wrote:Back up a little bit.

A warm body who is 6' 10" or taller does not equal a legit center.  Sully can handle all but the biggest most talented guys at the position - and I have no fear that Robin Lopez, Plumlee, Andrew Bogut, Pekovic or even Jordan is going to overwhelm him or Hump for that matter. 

Hump just dealt very well with Cousins - and Plumlee scored 4 points and only played 20 minutes - hardly a legit center.

The Celtics need for a big man is more to sure up the defensive end of the court and protect the rim - but again, they can work around this if they have enough talent on the court.

When the meet up with Indiana / Houston / San Antonio, sure they are at a disadvantage - but Kevin Love drilling 3 pointers with someone like Asik or Anthony Davis trying to check him, is advantage Celtics all day long.

Bottom line - you get a chance to get Kevin Love - you do.

Smallish centers can flourish in the NBA anytime, heck I think there are less good "big" centers now than at any time. Seems in the 60's almost every team had a pretty good one, fast forward to those Bulls team with monsters like Borwinkle Purdue and Cartwright......... none of them would be anything special they had a couple pretty good players around them.

As long as they can do the basic things well score rebound and play some D height is not the major factor. I'd love to see a starting 5 that had love alongside Sully on the front line. And our own name sake Cowens did a pretty darn good job in the 70's and he was just over 6-8.

beat

beat wrote:

mrkleen09 wrote:Back up a little bit.

A warm body who is 6' 10" or taller does not equal a legit center.  Sully can handle all but the biggest most talented guys at the position - and I have no fear that Robin Lopez, Plumlee, Andrew Bogut, Pekovic or even Jordan is going to overwhelm him or Hump for that matter. 

Hump just dealt very well with Cousins - and Plumlee scored 4 points and only played 20 minutes - hardly a legit center.

The Celtics need for a big man is more to sure up the defensive end of the court and protect the rim - but again, they can work around this if they have enough talent on the court.

When the meet up with Indiana / Houston / San Antonio, sure they are at a disadvantage - but Kevin Love drilling 3 pointers with someone like Asik or Anthony Davis trying to check him, is advantage Celtics all day long.

Bottom line - you get a chance to get Kevin Love - you do.

Smallish centers can flourish in the NBA anytime, heck I think there are less good "big" centers now than at any time. Seems in the 60's almost every team had a pretty good one, fast forward to those Bulls team with monsters like Borwinkle Purdue and Cartwright......... none of them would be anything special they had a couple pretty good players around them.

As long as they can do the basic things well score rebound and play some D height is not the major factor. I'd love  to see a starting 5 that had love alongside Sully on the front line. And our own name sake Cowens did a pretty darn good job in the 70's and he was just over 6-8.

beat

Sorry Beat but I disagree.    

Love  cannot play center that is the bottom line.  Why are we always trying to expect players to play out of position and be successful?  Sullinger is struggling trying to play center on the defensive end.  The reason he got knocked in the head is because he is so short that he comes up to the elbow of a real center that is much taller than he is.  Love cannot cover legit big men either.

And has anyone thought about his $14 - $15 million salary and how that may impact the team?

Anyways this is just another wet dream by Simmons

I just do not see us making a trade for another 4 especially when we have Sully.  

Love of course scores a lot of points but he also takes a lot of shots and is a .450 shooter from the field.  I think he could work out well for the lakers.

dboss

I'm glad I wasn't crazy for questioning Love's credentials as a center.  But, much more important, I want to congratulate everyone who has contributed to this thread.  It is relevant, informative, knowledgeable, convivial, and a model of what threads should be like.  Not that I don't enjoy all of them, but I have particularly enjoyed reading every bit of this thread.

Thanks to all,

Sam

mrkleen09 wrote:Back up a little bit.

A warm body who is 6' 10" or taller does not equal a legit center.  Sully can handle all but the biggest most talented guys at the position - and I have no fear that Robin Lopez, Plumlee, Andrew Bogut, Pekovic or even Jordan is going to overwhelm him or Hump for that matter. 

Hump just dealt very well with Cousins - and Plumlee scored 4 points and only played 20 minutes - hardly a legit center.

The Celtics need for a big man is more to sure up the defensive end of the court and protect the rim - but again, they can work around this if they have enough talent on the court.

When the meet up with Indiana / Houston / San Antonio, sure they are at a disadvantage - but Kevin Love drilling 3 pointers with someone like Asik or Anthony Davis trying to check him, is advantage Celtics all day long.

So you're basing your entire opinion about whether a team has a legit center on how they played in their one or two games against Boston? Now even Cousins isn't a legit center? You didn't actually say that, but that's the road your logic is heading down.

I guess we're working off different definitions of what is a legit center. For me, first and foremost, it's the ability to rebound, defend against other centers, and protect the rim. Scoring is secondary, and the fact that Robin Lopez (10.7 PPG), Miles Plumlee (8.8), and DeAndre Jordan (10.2) aren't primary scorers doesn't disqualify them as legit centers. There's a difference between "legit" and "all star." And by the way, you should adjust your thinking about Pekovic, who is averaging 18.0 points and 9.1 rebounds and had a 20/12 game against Boston in November.

Also by the way, in addition to averaging 8.8 points, 8.3 rebounds, and 1.4 blocks, Plumlee had eight rebounds and three blocks in those 20 minutes against Boston. If the Celtics had him, all this talk about needing Asik or any other legit center would vanish. The kid is 25 years old, in his second season, and is only going to get better. It looks like you're discounting him and these other guys because a) they're not all-stars; and b) they're not Celtics.

I guess this is one of those areas where we just disagree.

mrkleen09 wrote:Bottom line - you get a chance to get Kevin Love - you do.

Of course, but this is just some "what if" exercise for Simmons that has no basis in reality. There is no actual opportunity to get him.

I agree with dboss that the Celtics need to break the habit of constantly using players outside of their natural positions.

Kevin Love is a PF and that's that. Would he contribute a great deal to the Celtics? Absolutely, but I'm not quite so sure they would become a contender with him.

The reason why the Celtics should not follow the Miami Heat model is simple: there isn't a Lebron James and Dwyane Wade on this team. Nothing against Bradley and Green, because I respect the hell out of them, but they aren't really in the argument for being the best players at their respective positions. Unless they were good enough to influence the game to the extent where a center wasn't necessary, but this team, as constructed, needs a center plain and simple.

Also, in order to get Kevin Love, the Timberwolves would likely want one of the starters as compensation, so a lineup of Rondo, Sully, Bradley, Green, and Love appears to not be very feasible.



KJ

I will also say that I have absolutely no problem with anyone playing GM, provided they fall under two vital prerequisites:

1. They do not work for ESPN

2. They are not affiliated with CSNNE.

Sounds fair enough to me.



KJ

Love is likely the best big in the NBA but he isn't the player to key your defense off of and neither is Sullinger. On defense, both play the same spot. If you add Love, you should be doing that either using Sully or using Sully to trade for a complementary All-Star.

Outside wrote:I guess this is one of those areas where we just disagree.

Yes.  Totally.

Putting  C next to your name does not make you a center, any more than being undersized yet up for a good fight every night, make you unable to play against Centers.

Just saw Dave Cowens at an event in Boston tonight....talk about a guy who wasnt a so called Center, who made a meal of it for 11 seasons.

mrkleen09 wrote:Back up a little bit.

When the meet up with Indiana / Houston / San Antonio, sure they are at a disadvantage - but Kevin Love drilling 3 pointers with someone like Asik or Anthony Davis trying to check him, is advantage Celtics all day long.

Is Kevin Love's offense good enough to compensate for his lack of being a stud defender?



KJ

beat wrote:

mrkleen09 wrote:Back up a little bit.

A warm body who is 6' 10" or taller does not equal a legit center.  Sully can handle all but the biggest most talented guys at the position - and I have no fear that Robin Lopez, Plumlee, Andrew Bogut, Pekovic or even Jordan is going to overwhelm him or Hump for that matter. 

Hump just dealt very well with Cousins - and Plumlee scored 4 points and only played 20 minutes - hardly a legit center.

The Celtics need for a big man is more to sure up the defensive end of the court and protect the rim - but again, they can work around this if they have enough talent on the court.

When the meet up with Indiana / Houston / San Antonio, sure they are at a disadvantage - but Kevin Love drilling 3 pointers with someone like Asik or Anthony Davis trying to check him, is advantage Celtics all day long.

Bottom line - you get a chance to get Kevin Love - you do.

Smallish centers can flourish in the NBA anytime, heck I think there are less good "big" centers now than at any time. Seems in the 60's almost every team had a pretty good one, fast forward to those Bulls team with monsters like Borwinkle Purdue and Cartwright......... none of them would be anything special they had a couple pretty good players around them.

As long as they can do the basic things well score rebound and play some D height is not the major factor. I'd love  to see a starting 5 that had love alongside Sully on the front line. And our own name sake Cowens did a pretty darn good job in the 70's and he was just over 6-8.

beat

beat I'm surprised by your comment, as a center Sully and Love couldn't hold Dave Cowens jock strap, these guys have trouble defending other PF's let alone centers. Cowens was a much better athlete and leaper with innate HoF defensive ability, these guys are very good PF's, not centers.[/quote]

outside I saw Plumlee go against Dwight Howard recently and was shocked as Plumlee is an inch taller and very athletic, has good hands, can block shots, shit I'd take him over KO in a heartbeat. Why couldn't Larry Bird do us a favor and have traded him to us? as he adds skills he will only get better and better as he is the rarest of breeds, the leaping Caucasian.

KJ,

I would say it depends on how good a defender he is in the absence of being a "stud defender" (however that's defined). In general, I don't believe offensive expertise can offset being a mediocre defender. I believe that, if the Celtics retain a team defensive concept, they won't be able to afford a mediocre defender "weak link." Odds are against their getting a modern day Russell who can defend the rim and be sufficiently mobile to overcome teammates' defensive lapses.

Sam

cowens/oldschool wrote:

beat wrote:

mrkleen09 wrote:Back up a little bit.

A warm body who is 6' 10" or taller does not equal a legit center.  Sully can handle all but the biggest most talented guys at the position - and I have no fear that Robin Lopez, Plumlee, Andrew Bogut, Pekovic or even Jordan is going to overwhelm him or Hump for that matter. 

Hump just dealt very well with Cousins - and Plumlee scored 4 points and only played 20 minutes - hardly a legit center.

The Celtics need for a big man is more to sure up the defensive end of the court and protect the rim - but again, they can work around this if they have enough talent on the court.

When the meet up with Indiana / Houston / San Antonio, sure they are at a disadvantage - but Kevin Love drilling 3 pointers with someone like Asik or Anthony Davis trying to check him, is advantage Celtics all day long.

Bottom line - you get a chance to get Kevin Love - you do.

Smallish centers can flourish in the NBA anytime, heck I think there are less good "big" centers now than at any time. Seems in the 60's almost every team had a pretty good one, fast forward to those Bulls team with monsters like Borwinkle Purdue and Cartwright......... none of them would be anything special they had a couple pretty good players around them.

As long as they can do the basic things well score rebound and play some D height is not the major factor. I'd love  to see a starting 5 that had love alongside Sully on the front line. And our own name sake Cowens did a pretty darn good job in the 70's and he was just over 6-8.

beat

beat I'm surprised by your comment, as a center Sully and Love couldn't hold Dave Cowens jock strap, these guys have trouble defending other PF's let alone centers. Cowens was a much better athlete and leaper with innate HoF defensive ability, these guys are very good PF's, not centers.

When I think of Cowens, I think of his intensity. He was able to succeed as a hall of fame center in this league because he worked so hard on defense and the boards. The recent controversy with Richard Sherman/Erin Andrews after the NFC championship game reminded me a bit of Cowens in that Cowens would have to cool down after a game, get back from his intense game self, before he could talk with reporters about the game.

after reading all the posts, I'll add my 5 cents .

1) I think we can all agree that Ainge will NOT keep all 10 draft picks in the next 5 years.

2) Ainge will probably go for a young "star" to pair with Rondo ( if he is planning on keeping Rondo).

3) Love is a star 6-8 power forward, that rebounds and scores ( and is a consistent 3 point shooter).

so, is Love better than Sully?......I think yes.

then how many picks is Love worth (along with Sully)?

what if we end up having the 6 pick this year?

that pick, Clippers 2015 pick and Sully enough...or need to add another future #1?


getting Love doesn't mean Ainge is done. as has been pointed out by others, we'd still need a legit NBA center.

we'd still have assets including Bass and 7 other #1 draft picks left.

would Houston Move Asik in the off-season for Bass and some future asset?

roster:

Asik
Fav
Anthony
Love
Olynyk
Green
Wallace
Bradley
Johnson
Rondo
pressey
18th pick in draft ( James Young?)

Possibly  Iverson on a cheap deal coming back from over seas.

that's 13 players.  and I think a top 4 team in the east if all healthy.

and Ainge would still be left with 4-5 first round picks in the next 4 years. so you haven't mortgaged the future (wiped out your draft picks) for this roster.

you also are back  OVER the luxury cap in 2015, after re-signing Rondo, Love and Asik. at least until we get rid of Wallace.

I should note that after looking at players salary's/cap for next season and assuming re-signing Bradley for about 7M...the Celtics would be at about $75M in cap numbers with the above roster (so over the luxury cap next season as well).

OK...so its about 10 cents.