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Roy Hibbert, On Pacers' Locker Room: 'There Are Some Selfish Dudes In Here'
by bobheckler Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:21 pm
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/03/31/roy-hibbert-on-pacers-locker-room-some-selfish-dudes-in-here/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs
Roy Hibbert on Pacers’ locker room: ‘Some selfish dudes in here’
Dan Feldman Mar 31, 2014, 7:42 PM EDT
Every single team in the NBA has a player who believes he doesn’t get enough shots because his teammates hog the ball. You usually don’t hear about it, because those players know complaining publicly will harm the team. Only when is the grievance is so strong do players speak up.
But not getting shots isn’t the only way those players reach that level of unhappiness. Winning cures all ills, and when teams lose, players are less likely to suppress their complaints.
Take the Pacers, who’ve lost four of five and nine of 15.
Roy Hibbert, via David Aldridge of NBA.com:
“Some selfish dudes in here,” Roy Hibbert muttered Friday night, after getting eight shots in the Pacers’ loss to the Wizards. “Some selfish dudes. I’m tired of talking about it. We’ve been talking about it for a month.”
“We play hard, but we’ve got to move the ball,” Hibbert said. “Is it obvious, or what? I don’t know whatever our assist ratio, or whatever it is, is in the league, but it probably isn’t up there. I’m really trying hard not to spaz out right now, but I don’t know. We’ve been talking about it for a month. I’m not handling the rock. I don’t know. I’ve made suggestions before and we do it for, like, one game, and then we revert back to what we are. I don’t know. I’m not the one to answer that question. It directly affects me and the bigs. We’re just out there and it makes us look bad.”
Whom is Hibbert talking about?
Let’s narrow the suspects to Indiana’s other four starters – George Hill, Lance Stephenson, Paul George and David West. Hibbert has played 61 percent of his minutes with all four at once and at least 79 percent with each individually.
I think we can eliminate West, a power forward. After all, Hibbert said the selfishness adversely affects the bigs.
For a baseline, here’s how each team’s starting point guards, shooting guards and small forwards rank in assists per shot:
This measure seems to excuse Stephenson, who ranks fourth among starting shooting guards in assists per shot.
What about Paul George? He leads the Pacers in shots by a wide margin, but he’s assisted Hibbert more this season than anyone else this season. Hibbert also recently gave George permission to freelance. Hibbert, via Candace Bucker of IndyStar (hat tip: Jared Wade of 8 Points, 9 Seconds):
“We’ve fallen in love with the jump shot for a while,” Hibbert said. “People feel like they have it going and they want to do it themselves sometimes. That’s just how it works. I feel like two guys that I have 100 percent trust in doing that is Paul and David. I feel like they should have carte blanche on whatever they want to do in terms of attacking the paint and (put) the ball’s in their hands because they’ve earned my respect.”
That leaves George Hill, who ranks lower than Stephenson and George among starters at his position in assists per shot. Hibbert has not, to my knowledge, publically endorsed Hill not passing, either. Also Hill has assisted Hibbert just 30 times this season – few than George (45), Stephenson (43) and even West (42) have. But Hill has also taken the fewer shots than any other Indiana starter.
In the Pacers’ offense, Hill takes a smaller role than a typical point guard. He doesn’t dominate the ball, so his ability to hijack the offense is limited.
And that’s the rub. Roles vary across the league, and it’s difficult to say from the outside who is supposed to pass to Hibbert more – or at least whom he thinks should.
Hibbert knows, and Frank Vogel knows. And the purportedly selfish player(s) probably know.
As much as it’s important the solve the issue, it’s more important they reach a place where Hibbert isn’t so unhappy that he’s complaining publicly.
It’s probably a chicken-or-the-egg argument whether better offensive balance would make the Pacers win or vice versa. Either way, they need one or the other to happen soon before this in-fighting worsens.
bob
MY NOTE: You gotta say this: We're losing game-after-game-after-game, but you don't hear any of this coming out of the Celtics' locker room this year. If there is one area where Brad Stevens deserves an 'A+' in, it is in team loyalty and buy-in. Of course, anybody who did say something (MarShon Brooks and Keith Bogans and even, a little, by Lee) are gone, either through trade or exile.
There is a limitation in this analysis because it only looks at the starters because the author assumes Hibbert is talking about the impact of this selfishness on his game, as opposed to the team's output.
.
Roy Hibbert on Pacers’ locker room: ‘Some selfish dudes in here’
Dan Feldman Mar 31, 2014, 7:42 PM EDT
Every single team in the NBA has a player who believes he doesn’t get enough shots because his teammates hog the ball. You usually don’t hear about it, because those players know complaining publicly will harm the team. Only when is the grievance is so strong do players speak up.
But not getting shots isn’t the only way those players reach that level of unhappiness. Winning cures all ills, and when teams lose, players are less likely to suppress their complaints.
Take the Pacers, who’ve lost four of five and nine of 15.
Roy Hibbert, via David Aldridge of NBA.com:
“Some selfish dudes in here,” Roy Hibbert muttered Friday night, after getting eight shots in the Pacers’ loss to the Wizards. “Some selfish dudes. I’m tired of talking about it. We’ve been talking about it for a month.”
“We play hard, but we’ve got to move the ball,” Hibbert said. “Is it obvious, or what? I don’t know whatever our assist ratio, or whatever it is, is in the league, but it probably isn’t up there. I’m really trying hard not to spaz out right now, but I don’t know. We’ve been talking about it for a month. I’m not handling the rock. I don’t know. I’ve made suggestions before and we do it for, like, one game, and then we revert back to what we are. I don’t know. I’m not the one to answer that question. It directly affects me and the bigs. We’re just out there and it makes us look bad.”
Whom is Hibbert talking about?
Let’s narrow the suspects to Indiana’s other four starters – George Hill, Lance Stephenson, Paul George and David West. Hibbert has played 61 percent of his minutes with all four at once and at least 79 percent with each individually.
I think we can eliminate West, a power forward. After all, Hibbert said the selfishness adversely affects the bigs.
For a baseline, here’s how each team’s starting point guards, shooting guards and small forwards rank in assists per shot:
This measure seems to excuse Stephenson, who ranks fourth among starting shooting guards in assists per shot.
What about Paul George? He leads the Pacers in shots by a wide margin, but he’s assisted Hibbert more this season than anyone else this season. Hibbert also recently gave George permission to freelance. Hibbert, via Candace Bucker of IndyStar (hat tip: Jared Wade of 8 Points, 9 Seconds):
“We’ve fallen in love with the jump shot for a while,” Hibbert said. “People feel like they have it going and they want to do it themselves sometimes. That’s just how it works. I feel like two guys that I have 100 percent trust in doing that is Paul and David. I feel like they should have carte blanche on whatever they want to do in terms of attacking the paint and (put) the ball’s in their hands because they’ve earned my respect.”
That leaves George Hill, who ranks lower than Stephenson and George among starters at his position in assists per shot. Hibbert has not, to my knowledge, publically endorsed Hill not passing, either. Also Hill has assisted Hibbert just 30 times this season – few than George (45), Stephenson (43) and even West (42) have. But Hill has also taken the fewer shots than any other Indiana starter.
In the Pacers’ offense, Hill takes a smaller role than a typical point guard. He doesn’t dominate the ball, so his ability to hijack the offense is limited.
And that’s the rub. Roles vary across the league, and it’s difficult to say from the outside who is supposed to pass to Hibbert more – or at least whom he thinks should.
Hibbert knows, and Frank Vogel knows. And the purportedly selfish player(s) probably know.
As much as it’s important the solve the issue, it’s more important they reach a place where Hibbert isn’t so unhappy that he’s complaining publicly.
It’s probably a chicken-or-the-egg argument whether better offensive balance would make the Pacers win or vice versa. Either way, they need one or the other to happen soon before this in-fighting worsens.
bob
MY NOTE: You gotta say this: We're losing game-after-game-after-game, but you don't hear any of this coming out of the Celtics' locker room this year. If there is one area where Brad Stevens deserves an 'A+' in, it is in team loyalty and buy-in. Of course, anybody who did say something (MarShon Brooks and Keith Bogans and even, a little, by Lee) are gone, either through trade or exile.
There is a limitation in this analysis because it only looks at the starters because the author assumes Hibbert is talking about the impact of this selfishness on his game, as opposed to the team's output.
.
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Re: Roy Hibbert, On Pacers' Locker Room: 'There Are Some Selfish Dudes In Here'
by Sam Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:34 pm
I have some possible solutions.
1. Roy would be a welcome addition to the Boston Celtics. Same degree of cold weather, but less hay sticking out of his ears.
2. If the Pacers need to find themselves, they might schedule an exhibition game with the Celtics. That seems to be an antidote to whatever is ailing teams around the league this season.
3. The Pacers could hire a psychologist to leave some post-hypnotic suggestions that every player they face looks like Lebron James. At least that could help work out some of their pent-up aggression, although they would be running the risk of ugliness poisoning.
Sam
1. Roy would be a welcome addition to the Boston Celtics. Same degree of cold weather, but less hay sticking out of his ears.
2. If the Pacers need to find themselves, they might schedule an exhibition game with the Celtics. That seems to be an antidote to whatever is ailing teams around the league this season.
3. The Pacers could hire a psychologist to leave some post-hypnotic suggestions that every player they face looks like Lebron James. At least that could help work out some of their pent-up aggression, although they would be running the risk of ugliness poisoning.
Sam
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Re: Roy Hibbert, On Pacers' Locker Room: 'There Are Some Selfish Dudes In Here'
by k_j_88 Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:51 pm
The Pacers are going through a slump. It happens to all teams, including those that are towards the top.
Paul George, Lance Stevenson, and you could probably throw Evan Turner into the mix of ball handlers. Naturally, as they are scorers, they'll typically look for their own shot. I think it's quite easy for one of them to decide to take it upon themselves to score when the team is struggling. The only problem is, that generally hurts more than it helps.
I think what hurts the Pacers most is the lack of a true point guard. George Hill is more of a combo guard, and not really suited for the role of starting PG. I'm sure Hibbert would be humming a different tune if their team had a true distributor.
KJ
Paul George, Lance Stevenson, and you could probably throw Evan Turner into the mix of ball handlers. Naturally, as they are scorers, they'll typically look for their own shot. I think it's quite easy for one of them to decide to take it upon themselves to score when the team is struggling. The only problem is, that generally hurts more than it helps.
I think what hurts the Pacers most is the lack of a true point guard. George Hill is more of a combo guard, and not really suited for the role of starting PG. I'm sure Hibbert would be humming a different tune if their team had a true distributor.
KJ
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Re: Roy Hibbert, On Pacers' Locker Room: 'There Are Some Selfish Dudes In Here'
by Outside Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:24 pm
The Pacers have taken an turn for the weird. I don't understand it.
They were set up to make a solid run for the championship this season. The East is woeful, which would mean more games against lousy competition and an easier opportunity to earn home court throughout the playoffs plus the likelihood of relatively easy first playoff rounds compared to the West. The Heat were tired physically and emotionally after three straight years in the finals, and the Pacers should be hungrier and more driven than Miami. Their whole core except David West is young and getting better each year, they upgraded their bench in the offseason, and they added Evan Turner during the season. All the pieces were in place.
So why the apparent dysfunction? Maybe Frank Vogel isn't up to the task of dealing with all the personal issues, maybe some of them have gotten too big for their britches, maybe it's just a midseason slump and they'll be fine come playoff time. Maybe Lance Stephenson is even more of a knucklehead than he appears to be. Even though the problems are showing up in the stats, I don't think the root cause is an X's and O's problem.
Right now, it looks like they're blowing a golden opportunity.
They were set up to make a solid run for the championship this season. The East is woeful, which would mean more games against lousy competition and an easier opportunity to earn home court throughout the playoffs plus the likelihood of relatively easy first playoff rounds compared to the West. The Heat were tired physically and emotionally after three straight years in the finals, and the Pacers should be hungrier and more driven than Miami. Their whole core except David West is young and getting better each year, they upgraded their bench in the offseason, and they added Evan Turner during the season. All the pieces were in place.
So why the apparent dysfunction? Maybe Frank Vogel isn't up to the task of dealing with all the personal issues, maybe some of them have gotten too big for their britches, maybe it's just a midseason slump and they'll be fine come playoff time. Maybe Lance Stephenson is even more of a knucklehead than he appears to be. Even though the problems are showing up in the stats, I don't think the root cause is an X's and O's problem.
Right now, it looks like they're blowing a golden opportunity.
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Re: Roy Hibbert, On Pacers' Locker Room: 'There Are Some Selfish Dudes In Here'
by swish Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:35 pm
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2014&year_max=2014&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=81&height_max=91&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=1600&c2stat=trb_per_mp&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=efg_pct
Above list is for players 6'9" or taller that play center,center- forward or forward-center with a minimum of 1600 minutes played this year.( this translates into being in the top 6 players on a team. As you can see Hibbert ranks near the bottom in efg percentage. So perhaps there is a reason that he doesn't get the touches he thinks he should. Even on his own team he ranks 5th in efg percentage(.455) behind Stephenson with an efg of.539, Hill at .523, George at.491 and West at.481. Also note that Hibbert ranks near the bottom in rebounding per 36 minutes.
swish
Above list is for players 6'9" or taller that play center,center- forward or forward-center with a minimum of 1600 minutes played this year.( this translates into being in the top 6 players on a team. As you can see Hibbert ranks near the bottom in efg percentage. So perhaps there is a reason that he doesn't get the touches he thinks he should. Even on his own team he ranks 5th in efg percentage(.455) behind Stephenson with an efg of.539, Hill at .523, George at.491 and West at.481. Also note that Hibbert ranks near the bottom in rebounding per 36 minutes.
swish
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Re: Roy Hibbert, On Pacers' Locker Room: 'There Are Some Selfish Dudes In Here'
by RosalieTCeltics Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:36 pm
From the beginning of the year I felt that this was definitely going to be the team to come out of the East. Now? If they keep this up, Larry will have no problem at the end of the year with trading one or more of the players he feels are not producing. I thought he built this team with Miami in his head.
I think they read their press clippings a little too soon and their heads just swelled. Paul George has not been the same player in the second half of the season as he was before the all star break.
Doesn't make any difference, San Antonio is going to win it all now anyway.
Rosalie
I think they read their press clippings a little too soon and their heads just swelled. Paul George has not been the same player in the second half of the season as he was before the all star break.
Doesn't make any difference, San Antonio is going to win it all now anyway.
Rosalie
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Re: Roy Hibbert, On Pacers' Locker Room: 'There Are Some Selfish Dudes In Here'
by beat Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:54 pm
Rosalie
Heard that George was real close to Danny Granger and was upset when they traded him. Even though Turner is perhaps a better player might have done something to the chemistry when Granger was dealt.
Whatever is going on. They certainly are not playing well.
beat
Heard that George was real close to Danny Granger and was upset when they traded him. Even though Turner is perhaps a better player might have done something to the chemistry when Granger was dealt.
Whatever is going on. They certainly are not playing well.
beat
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Re: Roy Hibbert, On Pacers' Locker Room: 'There Are Some Selfish Dudes In Here'
by sinus007 Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:37 pm
Hi,
I don't know what's happening with Pacers now, but ever since they lost to Mia I had a feeling that despite of abundance of talent they lack a true leader. The guy who'd lead not only by piling points, rebounds, etc but who'd be able to convince the rest of the team that they can not loose. Someone similar to PP, Kobe, Lebron. I don't think they have such a guy. Perhaps it's one of the reasons for the current implosion of the team. Sad...
Hope they figure their shit before playoffs. If not, I really like Sam's solution #1.
AK
I don't know what's happening with Pacers now, but ever since they lost to Mia I had a feeling that despite of abundance of talent they lack a true leader. The guy who'd lead not only by piling points, rebounds, etc but who'd be able to convince the rest of the team that they can not loose. Someone similar to PP, Kobe, Lebron. I don't think they have such a guy. Perhaps it's one of the reasons for the current implosion of the team. Sad...
Hope they figure their shit before playoffs. If not, I really like Sam's solution #1.
AK
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Re: Roy Hibbert, On Pacers' Locker Room: 'There Are Some Selfish Dudes In Here'
by Sam Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:59 pm
This situation—at least the article summarizing it—may be a good example of fact vs. perception. (I believe Swish mentioned this a couple of days ago, although in a different context.)
I very much doubt that Roy Hibbert is sifting through all the available stats in identifying culprit(s) in this situation. He may not even be obliquely identifying one or more specific "dudes" in his statements. He's angry because his perception is that a person or persons are mucking up the system that has served them well all season long. It's even possible that a few specific plays over the past several games have been primarily responsible for his irritation. What is not covered in the article are his on-court reactions to the perceived problems. For example, could he have become a black hole in the offense (intended as describing a state of being, not a racial comment)?
Sam
I very much doubt that Roy Hibbert is sifting through all the available stats in identifying culprit(s) in this situation. He may not even be obliquely identifying one or more specific "dudes" in his statements. He's angry because his perception is that a person or persons are mucking up the system that has served them well all season long. It's even possible that a few specific plays over the past several games have been primarily responsible for his irritation. What is not covered in the article are his on-court reactions to the perceived problems. For example, could he have become a black hole in the offense (intended as describing a state of being, not a racial comment)?
Sam
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Re: Roy Hibbert, On Pacers' Locker Room: 'There Are Some Selfish Dudes In Here'
by steve3344 Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:29 am
swish wrote:http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2014&year_max=2014&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=81&height_max=91&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=1600&c2stat=trb_per_mp&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=efg_pct
Above list is for players 6'9" or taller that play center,center- forward or forward-center with a minimum of 1600 minutes played this year.( this translates into being in the top 6 players on a team. As you can see Hibbert ranks near the bottom in efg percentage. So perhaps there is a reason that he doesn't get the touches he thinks he should. Even on his own team he ranks 5th in efg percentage(.455) behind Stephenson with an efg of.539, Hill at .523, George at.491 and West at.481. Also note that Hibbert ranks near the bottom in rebounding per 36 minutes.
swish
Interesting that the top three people on that list are the three worst free throw shooters - at .449, .344 and .415 - all atrocious.
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Re: Roy Hibbert, On Pacers' Locker Room: 'There Are Some Selfish Dudes In Here'
by k_j_88 Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:41 am
Apparently, George Hill and Lance Stephenson had to be separated during the loss to the Spurs...
Anyway... The Pacers have a collection of very good players, but to reiterate a point I made earlier, they lack a true point guard. This means that they'll always face a deficiency on the offensive end despite the scorers they have on-hand.
To further a point Sam was making, perhaps teams are learning how to deal with Hibbert. He's a very good center, but not without his own limitations. Perhaps there's parts to his game that need work. But, you win as a team and you lose as a team. Therefore, there are others to blame as well.
Another point is that the Pacers have been arrogant at times. They started off the year with the proper mindset and lead the league in victories. But adversity has knocked them off the path to an extent. Do they possess the resolve to overcome these issues?
KJ
Anyway... The Pacers have a collection of very good players, but to reiterate a point I made earlier, they lack a true point guard. This means that they'll always face a deficiency on the offensive end despite the scorers they have on-hand.
To further a point Sam was making, perhaps teams are learning how to deal with Hibbert. He's a very good center, but not without his own limitations. Perhaps there's parts to his game that need work. But, you win as a team and you lose as a team. Therefore, there are others to blame as well.
Another point is that the Pacers have been arrogant at times. They started off the year with the proper mindset and lead the league in victories. But adversity has knocked them off the path to an extent. Do they possess the resolve to overcome these issues?
KJ
Last edited by k_j_88 on Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:57 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Roy Hibbert, On Pacers' Locker Room: 'There Are Some Selfish Dudes In Here'
by Sam Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:47 am
Steve,
Interesting point. Even the fourth one, Dwight Howard, is no bargain at.548. It just supports the theory that most bigs who score most of their points at the rim can't shoot for crap from distance. Guys like Bosh and Hibbert, himself, are unusual.
So what do you say we meet at a corner deli for some pastrami about 4:00 this morning? Heck, we're doing nothing more substantial than lurking on the forum.
Sam
Interesting point. Even the fourth one, Dwight Howard, is no bargain at.548. It just supports the theory that most bigs who score most of their points at the rim can't shoot for crap from distance. Guys like Bosh and Hibbert, himself, are unusual.
So what do you say we meet at a corner deli for some pastrami about 4:00 this morning? Heck, we're doing nothing more substantial than lurking on the forum.
Sam
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Re: Roy Hibbert, On Pacers' Locker Room: 'There Are Some Selfish Dudes In Here'
by steve3344 Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:49 am
sam wrote:Steve,
Interesting point. Even the fourth one, Dwight Howard, is no bargain at.548. It just supports the theory that most bigs who score most of their points at the rim can't shoot for crap from distance. Guys like Bosh and Hibbert, himself, are unusual.
So what do you say we meet at a corner deli for some pastrami about 4:00 this morning? Heck, we're doing nothing more substantial than lurking on the forum.
Sam
If you're in New York now, I'm up for it.
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Re: Roy Hibbert, On Pacers' Locker Room: 'There Are Some Selfish Dudes In Here'
by Sam Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:47 am
Steve,
No, I was planning to hitch to New York. But I fell asleep instead. Sorry about that.
Sam
No, I was planning to hitch to New York. But I fell asleep instead. Sorry about that.
Sam
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Re: Roy Hibbert, On Pacers' Locker Room: 'There Are Some Selfish Dudes In Here'
by cowens/oldschool Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:11 am
sam wrote:Steve,
Interesting point. Even the fourth one, Dwight Howard, is no bargain at.548. It just supports the theory that most bigs who score most of their points at the rim can't shoot for crap from distance. Guys like Bosh and Hibbert, himself, are unusual.
So what do you say we meet at a corner deli for some pastrami about 4:00 this morning? Heck, we're doing nothing more substantial than lurking on the forum.
Sam
with some potato pancakes and mushroom barley....I'm in!!!
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Re: Roy Hibbert, On Pacers' Locker Room: 'There Are Some Selfish Dudes In Here'
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