POST GAME - ATLANTA - AWAY

If you don't have the horses you ain't winnin the race.

beat

k_j_88 wrote:

College success doesn't necessarily translate to the NBA. Case in point, Rick Pitino. We all get that he's a smart guy, and could one day be revered as a great NBA coach, but I'm not going to anoint him anything as long as I continue to see failed substitution patterns, starting lineups ill-prepared to match up with the opponent, and timeouts called too late. These are relatively basic things that he's still missing.

Let's look at things on a larger scale. Is this team better than last year's? Yes. Is it much better? Not really. This team is still losing games in almost the same fashion as last year; the only difference is that the losses aren't by as many points. This fact alone constitutes either a structural deficiency within the team, or a coaching deficiency (or both) still persists. Interestingly enough, despite the fact that the Celtics are the 3rd highest scoring team in the East, it has only translated to a 5-11 start because the Celtics are dead last in the East in giving up points. Whatever defensive "schemes" he's currently employing are not working.

KJ

OK....well, none of that changes the fact that Brad Stevens is considered, by many more knowledgeable than us - as one of the brightest young minds in Basketball. I cant image astute basketball fans are even debating this point.

As for this record, if you want to say it is too early to judge the team as improving - you have to give the say leeway to the coach. Too early to tell and too many things out of his control at this point. There are lots of very good coaches with poor records due to a lack of talent.

If the Celtics do not improve, it wont be because of a luck of basketball acumen on the bench.

Kleen

+1 and heading downward is a trend.  A trend my freind is not where they are but where they are heading.  Maybe they will start to trend up again but right now they are trending down scoring the basketball.

Is it not true that we begain the season averaging around 107 ppg?  I think the Celtics were in the top 1 or 2 teams in scoring. So we are a -4 at 103 now.

At the same time Boston's defense is deteriorating.  As a matter of fact the defense is worse than last year.  They started off better but have been trending down for weeks and are currently 3rd from the bottom in terms of points allowed.  Does coaching have anything to do with that?  Such as putting a stretch 4 in the post to play a 5?  

As far as I am concerned, Brad Stevens has not accomplished anything in the NBA.

Overall it was a low priced safe pick for Danny to hire.  It is a fact that college coaches that come into the NBA with no NBA coaching expereince are questionable.  Overall, the Celtics have one of the least experienced NBA level coaching staffs in the league.

Can you name one college coach that went from coaching college to the NBA without any NBA coaching experience  (at least at the asst level)?  AND was sucessfull (produced a winner or a contender)

Can you name 2, 3 or 4?

The point being Stevens was not ready to be a NBA Head Coach.  He got the job...good for him.  i hope he does well.  So far in a Pass/Fail option only an incomplete can be given.

So you can quote all the "He's great stuff" all day long but the bottom line will be drawn under wins and losses.

At least he doesn't blame his players like doc rivers used to do.  That is what I like about him most of all.

So there you have it. You think he's great and I think greatness has yet to be determined.

dboss

Now who is putting words in the other's mouth?

I never said he was 'great' - I said he was one of the most respected young minds in the game. BIG difference.

As for college coaches who were solid in the NBA, the list is long.

Bill Fitch, Larry Brown, Cotton Fitzsimmons, Dick Motta, Jack Ramsay, Greg Popovich, Chuck Daly

I agree Stevens is a work in progress...which actually makes my point. The "honeymoon" is far from over and he is far from a finished product. Judging him at this point is both premature and unfair.

They've just gotten through a very tough November schedule. Throwing the coach under the bus at this point seems premature. There's no doubt he's still learning about the NBA game, but give this season a little time to see how it goes.

Half the coaches and teams in the NBA (that have a game) LOOSE every night that's 50%.

We will be on that side this season, did anyone of sound mind really think otherwise?

Stevens took a basically unknown team to the final game in the NCAA's and the final 4, 2 years straight. And he did it at what age?  If he isn't the youngest NBA coach he is damn close. Experience an issue? Heck the game of basketball is basically the same be it college or pro....with a few minor rule changes, and how the game is called itis still find the best way to put the ball in the basket and keep the other team from doing the same.

I remember thru the 70's and 80's seemed every time a team fired a coach they brought in a retread that had been fired somewhere else, like Gene Shue, Bob Wiese, ect seemed very few owners dared to try something new and different, either a retread, or a long time assistant.

At the end of this playoff season there will be only ONE coach that wins his final game. ONE.

I hope to hell anyone that starts a new endeavor that has been dealt a lot less than even an average hand is given the opportunity to succeed. Steven's knowledge of the game is just a tad higher than anyone's here, he is with these guys thru practices and film sessions and who knows what else.

Talk to me in February 2016 when perhaps he has a team that can compete to win, not compete to be close, and the 2016 in not a typo.

beat

Kleen you quoted someone else who said he was a great college coach and by that association that you used I assumed that you think that will translate into the NBA.  It could happen.

You name several well respected coaches but I think we have to eliminate a few in all fairness.

Chuck was an assistant first and so was Popovich.  Brown coached 4 year in the ABA before coaching in the NBA.  Fitch produced a losing record the 1st 5 years.  

Cotton lost the first 2 years while both Motta and Ramsay won right out of the gate  However Ramsay was a GM with Philly before taking over as head coach.

This brings me back to the essence of my point with one modification. College coaches with no prior NBA coaching experience rarely produce successful results.  

The way I see it, The Celtics are one of the most revered sports franchises in the world.  The fans deserve the best possible coaching available.  Experimenting with an unproven college coach undermines this franchise.  I suppose if Steven was a former NBA player that would be one thing.

I think the pressure is on for DA to acquire a couple of pieces PDQ.  I hope that Stevens becomes a great coach.  The problem that I have really does not have that much to do with the offense.  I think his strength is on the offensive side of the court minus the love affair with the 3 point shot.

It is the defense that bothers me the most.  

dboss

Well that is why he brought back Darren Erman....a young defensive minded coach.

You asked me to give you a list of college coaches who succeed in the NBA. I gave you a number. If you want to pick them apart one by one, that is fine.

Give me 5 former players who won as coaches in their first season?

The Celtics are years away from contending. I am sure DA's thinking on the matter is you get the best young mind in the game and then you let him grow with his players. By the time the Celtics are ready to content, Brad will be much more seasoned and prepared. Or else he will be gone. But there is literally ZERO reason to question him at this point.

You could have the triumvirate of Red, Phil Jackson and Jesus Christ on the bench - and this team is simply not ready to win. Sorry.

I know it's an obvious hyperbole with a purpose; but Phil Jackson would never be on this team's bench because he wouldn't have inherited a team already poised to win, and inheriting teams already poised to win has been his schtick.

As far as Red's concerned, one can only conjecture. But I'd wager that Red would exercise firmer, more animated authority than I'm seeing and hearing from Brad so far. Obviously, I don't see the practices. But sometimes, when watching this team go down the tubes in game after game while Brad outwardly exudes an unperturbed demeanor as he strolls along the sideline with his arms folded, I almost want to shout in his ear, "Hey Brad, do you know we're losing?"

Perhaps Brad saves his rants for practice or in the locker room after losses, and they're never noted when scribes are within hearing range. Perhaps he gives a lot of in-game strategic advice rather than uttering platitudes ("Now's the time to win this one, guys.") in timeout huddles and Abby either misses all the strategic goodies or is reluctant to report them for fear opponents will intercept her words. But, as I've posted elsewhere, I just hope he has(1) a temperament that's balanced enough to dispense some no-nonsense counsel along with his more empathic demeanor and (2) a coaching approach that incorporates a lot of immediate remedial guidance on strategies, techniques, and assignments that are blown on an all-too-regular basis.

It didn't happen often, but there were times when the Auerbach-coached Celtics' starters just plain laid an egg on the court. Any idiot knew they were capable of much more. Red would slam his rolled-up program on the bench or against his leg in frustration until he had had enough; and then he'd send five bench players onto the floor simultaneously
and would keep the starters on the bench for an extended period of time. The bench wasn't too shabby itself, usually consisting of at least two or three future hall-of-famers; and they loved the opportunity to succeed where the starters had failed. Invariably, the bench at least kept the Celtics in the game, and the starters went wild when they returned. And Red never had to speak a word.

I'm not, in any way, equating the caliber of Red's players with the caliber of today's Celtics....believe me! But I sometimes wonder if the current team would benefit from more pointed directives rather than suggestions.

Virtually all of the players' comments about Brad haven't been just favorable. They've gone out of the way to enthuse about him. That can be a double-edged sword. It's certainly desirable that they like the coach. But it's human nature to prefer an easy-going boss. Anyway, somehow it seems that a lot of whatever Brad's telling them doesn't stick with them very long. Most typically, for only three quarters.

I like Brad. I liked the of hiring a fresh, young mind with a history of success. I felt that a former college coach could be the ideal person to nurture young entries to the league. I had mixed feelings about his reliance on metrics; but I hope I'm keeping an open mind about that, because I seriously doubt that many (if any) deficiencies on the team are a function of metrics. But, although I know it's early in the season and they're just completed a horrendously challenging first month, I'm becoming just a bit concerned for reasons explained above and probably not worth belaboring.

Sam

while I have been one of the people saying that our coaching staff needs to take some of the blame for our end of game disasters, I would never think of changing coaches this soon.

I feel it was a major mistake for Ainge to not insist that Stevens have an NBA vet coach as assistant head coach from day one....but that time has passed. This staff will just have to grow into being NBA coaches (along with our young players perhaps).

that said, coaching MATTERS and we should expect Stevens to be able to change and adapt his style as needed. If not we surely can bitch about it to high heaven (that is our rights under the fandom constitution I do believe).

so .....how soon till trader Danny makes a trade?

The major problem is not on the offensive end.

mrkleen09 wrote:Well that is why he brought back Darren Erman....a young defensive minded coach.

You asked me to give you a list of college coaches who succeed in the NBA.  I gave you a number.  If you want to pick them apart one by one, that is fine.

Give me 5 former players who won as coaches in their first season?

The Celtics are years away from contending.  I am sure DA's thinking on the matter is you get the best young mind in the game and then you let him grow with his players.  By the time the Celtics are ready to content, Brad will be much more seasoned and prepared.  Or else he will be gone.  But there is literally ZERO reason to question him at this point.

You could have the triumvirate of Red, Phil Jackson and Jesus Christ on the bench - and this team is simply not ready to win.  Sorry.

I thought Erman was a college coach too with no NBA experience.  He's no thib that's for sure.  

The defense is worse this year so maybe the blame lies with Erman the Defensive Guru! and with Brad for hiring him.

Yeah you gave me a list but the list was outside of the parameters.  Remember college coaches with no NBA coaching experience (at least at the assistant level)  You had several that are disqualified.  And a guy that has 5 straight losing seasons should not even be mentioned.

Red would not have put up with this mess.  To suggest that this team would be playing this bad with this much talent under Red is a Joke.  You think Brad has a handle on a pace game?.  Not even close to what Red would have them doing.

There are plenty of reasons to critique the coaching staff.  Brad does not seem to have the external fire in his belly.  He's a nice guy and if it is true that a team reflects the personality of their coach we are in big trouble.  This team neeeds a stronger personality.  This isn't Butler this is the NBA.

So Brad's coaching ability and the team will be examined each and everyday.  When I see good things I will talk about them and when I see bad things particularly bad habits that are persistent I will talk about them too.  I have no idea why you would give him a pass.  It is a job.  The average hard working Joe gets a job and is expected to produce nowamd he is not making millions.

dboss

cowens/oldschool wrote:The major problem is not on the offensive end.

Exactly. As MrKleen has documented, the offense is improved. The defense is 26th in the league in points allowed per 100 possessions. That is the main area of concern and the opportunity for greatest improvement.

Outside wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:The major problem is not on the offensive end.

Exactly. As MrKleen has documented, the offense is improved. The defense is 26th in the league in points allowed per 100 possessions. That is the main area of concern and the opportunity for greatest improvement.

And the hardest thing to teach, learn, excel at. You dont become a good defensive team in 1 season, not unless you add a defensive stopper at the height of his powers (like KG and James Posey in 2008)

dboss wrote:  Red would not have put up with this mess.  To suggest that this team would be playing this bad with this much talent under Red is a Joke.  You think Brad has a handle on a pace game?.  Not even close to what Red would have them doing.

You have no idea what Red would be doing - nor how he would fare in the modern NBA - with a roster full of tweeners and young players with 1 or 2 years under their belt. But again, nice try.

dboss wrote:  Brad does not seem to have the external fire in his belly.  He's a nice guy and if it is true that a team reflects the personality of their coach we are in big trouble.  This team neeeds a stronger personality.  This isn't Butler this is the NBA.

LOL - so now you are judging basketball acumen based on his outward personality? This team needs exactly what Stevens brings, a calm, even headed, teacher - who is young enough to take his lumps with his players and never get too high or two low.  Doc Rivers would have been a TERRIBLE choice to coach this team.

dboss wrote:  So Brad's coaching ability and the team will be examined each and everyday.  When I see good things I will talk about them and when I see bad things particularly bad habits that are persistent I will talk about them too.  I have no idea why you would give him a pass.  It is a job.  The average hard working Joe gets a job and is expected to produce nowamd he is not making millions.

The only people who are examining Brad Stevens "everyday" are arm chair GMs and monday morning quarterbacks who have nothing better to do.  The people that actually matter in this discussion (DA and Wyc) have confidence in Brad and will give him multiple years (years where he actually has an NBA ready roster to compete with) before he is deemed a success or failure.  

Rebuilding jobs TAKE TIME.  Sorry you cant see that.