Remember Bill Russell Winning His First NBA Championship As Player-Coach

Yeah, Cow, Elgin was so quick, so herky jerky, so shifty, so instantly explosive, so much of a threat inside and out, so well equipped with (literally) every shot in the book, so adept at hanging in the air, that he had a habit of making the man-on-man defenses of the day look slow.  Isn't it amazing how the defenses you're obsessed with today, bolstered by half a century of defensive strategic advancement, seem to look slow when they try to cover Lebron James?  Or John Wall?  Or Stephen Curry?  Or Dirk Novitski?  Or Anthony Davis?  Or James Hardin?  Or Kyrie Irving?  Or Klay Thompson?  Or Jimmy Butler?  Or Chris Paul?  Or Damian Lilliard?  Or Dwayne (Weasel) Wade?  Or Demar Rozen? Or Derrick Rose?  Or many other primo scorers of today?

Some people will never "get" that the only way to evaluate teams and players of a given era is how they fared during their own eras.  Some people will always insist that the current era represents the gold standard of players and teams when what the current era really represents is the gold standard of the same nutritional, strategic, fitness, instructional, lifelong development, and other blah blah blah advantages that are allegedly recognized one moment but are readily ignored the next.

Sam



College grads who also had four-year degrees in basketball basics; many becoming successful coaches; many becoming successful businesspeople.  Today's geniuses may excel in inventing new dunks, but that's about the size of it.  Oh, I forgot, I also think some of them may be able to use their playstations with either hand.

In addition to being legitimate college graduates (i.e., no basket weaving classes allowed), they had advanced degrees in basketball.  They appreciated the game and its nuances, got off on improving the game, and had the mental capaciity to 

And do you know why they did all that innovating 

In those days, it was up to players to deal with all sorts of changes (not sometimes referred to as discontinuities) so that, after additional decades of refinement, can be handed to today's players on a silver platter.

Sam all good points and I even saw Sam Jones being posted on and he barely extended his arms, maybe he was in foul trouble. All those names of the modern players were good examples of what all star players can do, however when these guys do it, they also can do it into the teeth of this modern defense, similar to the young Pierce taking the contact and 1....

Baylor actually looked really fast when he took it end to end, but for the most part....well look at the tape.

Sloopjohnb wrote:"Baylor was actually alot slower on his moves than I thought"

This was especially true in the footage shown apparently in slow motion though I guess Baylor and every other player was so slow that it's hard to tell  at what speed the footage was shown.

"alot of players and the defenders were all atrocious..."

These atrocious defenders Baylor blew by at his snail-like pace included Russell, Havlicek, Tom Sanders and I think I saw Nate Thurmond in there as well.

don't put words in my mouth sloop. We could make a clip of Anthony Davis being scored on over and over in the paint, it can happen, the atrocious comment was on the segment with his post moves, look at that part and you don't see the defenders in a wide base and pressing on Baylor like good defenders do since I've been watching basketball. Did you see any defenders that reminded you of Igoudala, Kawhi Leonard, Paul George, Ron Artest, Tony Allen, Lebron James? I did see alot of guys that looked like Jeff Hornacek.

I get it now, guys.  This is a joke.  This could only be a joke.

Baylor was slow?  Tell me at what point on the 20+ minute tape he looks slow.  Tell me about one play on which he wasn't instrumental in putting the ball in the basket in a flash.  In some cases, it was a full-court dash in which he previewed James Worthy in receiving the touchdown pass or even raced the ball upcourt playing the role of playmaker.  In some cases, it was his hesitation or stutter dribble from which he'd either stop and pop or explode for the one-step or no-step slam.  In other cases, he'd hesitate just long enough to drain a long jumper.  He repeatedly slashed down the lane and either scored with his trademark burst of energy or passed for the score.  Baskets backwards over the head.  Tip-ins from 6-8 feet away from the basket.  Alley-oop passes before they'd been invented.  The very soul of offense at an exceptional level of speed.

Baylor looks especially slow in slow motion?  Hey guys, it's called SLOW motion for a reason.

Here's an idea.  Let's meet somewhere and watch the Baylor tape together.  Each time you catch Elgin being slow, I'll give you $10.  Each time, Elgin displays a move predicated upon speed or energy of some kind (running, dribbling, passing, slashing, exploding, defending whatever), you'll give me $10.  I'll scout out the ATMs in the area to make it easy for your to reload repeatedly.  I couldn't lose if I wanted to; and actually I'd like to be able to come up with some cash to help support your much-needed ophthalmologist visits.  

It's hard to comment on some of this stuff because it's the most preposterous reaction I've experienced in my nine years of posting on forums.  What the heck clips were you guys watching?  Seriously.  Were your eyes actually open?  These clips are Elgin Baylor being Michael Jordan in advance.  Some of these remarks are like someone looking at a black swatch and swearing it's white.

Calm down, Sam.  It's just a joke.  It couldn't be anything but a joke.

Let's make that $50 a play.  Or $100.

Sam, I told you to chill.  Laughter makes the world go around.

Sam

Sam relax no one is questioning your manhood. You probably think Baylor is fast because your comparing him to the 60's players. I'm comparing him to the modern players, so to me he and the defense on him look slow. I know in his era he was great, he had to be, look at his stats, but look at alot of his drives, he barely protects the ball because he doesn't have to. There is a site on youtube, its Hal Greer, they show whole footage of games, not just clips. Theres alot of Celtic games, what stands out in those games was Russell's athleticism, he is the modern ball player with fast twitch leaping skills that make him head and shoulders above everyone else. Its like hes the modern ball player out there and thats his advantage over everyone else, his athleticism stands out NOT Baylor's. Late last night saw the whole 4th quarter of game 7 from 62 Finals, Celtics and Lakers. I'm not that bright, I'm not white, bright and polite obviously, as soon as my son gets back, I'll get him to provide a link.

Cow,

I can't understand even half of what you say.  What I'm getting is that Hal Greer admires my manhood and my "fast twitch leaping skills," you're not bright enough for something or other, and your son feeds you sausage links.  That's nice.

Actually, if you actually read what I wrote, I specifically compared Elgin with Michael Jordan, who I believe was not a "60s player."  If you can't see the similarities between the two—definitely including speed and agility, well I just won't go there.

Hey, it's your right to delude yourself by ignoring what's quite obvious on the screen.

Sam

Sam I originally said Baylor looked fast on the end to end, on his post ups some defenders barely jumped. I do respect Baylor, but your challenging me, calling me delusional.... look closely whenever Baylor dunks, look where his head is, no where near the net, then look at clips of Jordan or any modern dunker, Vince Carter, Lebron, etc, they're head while dunking is always between the bottom of the net and the rim and sometimes its even with the rim. Lets just end it here, I don't want you to make me pick on the old timers anymore.

Cow, I apologize for the "delusional" remark.  Not appropriate, regardless of my opinion.

I'm not a fan of dunks.  But, when a player dunks incessantly, I couldn't give a rat's behind where his head is.

So are you changing your "slow" criticism to "looked fast on the end to end?  Maybe I'M the delusional one.

Fine on ending it here.  Different eras offer different contexts.  Period.

Sam

Apology accepted Sam, wish world leaders could squash things as easily as us.

Actually on some of the moves I thought Baylor looked particularly slow, those might have been what you labeled his herky jerky moves, where he was doing those Earl Monroe kind of odd innovative moves.... I was looking for vintage Vince Carter stuff and didn't recognize the change of pace herky jerky moves that he also had. My bad.

Cow, one thing you might look for in that clip is Elgin's mannerism, when he ran upcourt, of bobbing his head.  In the stands, we used to imitate him until our section 88 looked like a bunch of bobbleheads.  I guess bobbing was to Elgin as tongue-projection was to Michael.

Sam