Final Four and Beyond

I thought we could use this thread to discuss the Final Four and any draft news or thoughts leading to draft night.

I haven't seen alot of Buddy Hield and the game is not over, its halftime now, but Villonova doing great job on him defensively, staying on top of him and making him drive, when he drives they are adding necessary help too.

Does anyone still want us to draft Buddy Hield?

Yes, absolutely!

In the likely event we don't get Ingram or Simmons, Hield is next on my list.  Dunn might be OK too, but I'd much rather have Hield.  After that I think it's Stone or Valentine, depending on who is still on the board.  A combination of Hield and Stone gives us scoring and a big that we badly need.  If Hield is gone, Valentine is among the better scoring options and he may fall far enough to use our second pick on (if we keep it).

To get Hield, we probably would need the third pick, however.

NYCelt good to see you here, you and steve3344 should post more, as you guys always have interesting insights, so what happened to Hield today? is he JJ Redick or Adam Morrison?

cowens/oldschool wrote:NYCelt good to see you here, you and steve3344 should post more, as you guys always have interesting insights, so what happened to Hield today? is he JJ Redick or Adam Morrison?

Cow,

Thanks for the kind words.  I'm here more than it looks, but usually behind the scenes.  I do read every post in every thread, but have probably spent more of my board time recently working on support details with gyso and Pete than writing.  Coaching has taken a big chunk of time too, but I coached my last football game this past fall and might be coaching my last baseball game this summer as my son moves up to bigger and better teams with school and tournament clubs.  That work thing, and jumpy markets, has also taken more of my time.  I'll have more open time coming here again, I'm sure.  It goes in streaks!

'Nova had a great plan for Hield today.  Just one game; I don't think it lessens his value at all.  I don't think Buddy Hield is going to be either JJ or Morrison.  I think he's going an entirely different path and will be an excellent and multi-talented NBA two-guard.  As good as we seem to be at guard, I'd still take Hield. I think he might possibly make Bradley expendable, and Bradley might be our most valuable trading chip in search of a big.  There is also the possibility of drafting Hield, and trading his rights to help fill a need while keeping Bradley.  Either way, I'd take him.

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/114516/oklahoma-star-buddy-hield-shouldnt-be-defined-by-final-game

Regards

North Carolina wins and dominates with a 6'10" and 6'11" C-PF combo, basically a twin towers alignment and they are not too good from 3, they just wear you out with inside play and depth. Guess Roy Williams didn't get the memo its a new era and you can only win that way.

cowens/oldschool wrote:North Carolina wins and dominates with a 6'10" and 6'11" C-PF combo, basically a twin towers alignment and they are not too good from 3, they just wear you out with inside play and depth. Guess Roy Williams didn't get the memo its a new era and you can only win that way.

So who pray tell are they playing against...............answer College kids.

beat

beat wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:North Carolina wins and dominates with a 6'10" and 6'11" C-PF combo, basically a twin towers alignment and they are not too good from 3, they just wear you out with inside play and depth. Guess Roy Williams didn't get the memo its a new era and you can only win that way.

So who pray tell are they playing against...............answer College kids.

beat

beat,


BINGO!!

RJ Hunter looked like a superstar in summer league.  Now he can't get off the bench and when he does he struggles to score.  It's not just quality of competition, it's also style of play.  I very rarely watch college sports, and you're the expert on Syracuse basketball, but doesn't Boeheim's team play a 2-3 zone?  That has obviously worked quite well over many years, he has earned A LOT of Final 4 appearances with that as the backbone and guiding philosophy of his defense, but you don't see that in the pros.  The pros play a different game on defense and that forces a different game on offense to defeat it.


Also, on another note:

Cowens (this is part of a response to a post you made to NYCelt) and every other board member:

I may be the mod who does the most posting and creates the most threads (although I am seeing an uptick of non-mod created threads and I think that is excellent!  Start thoughts, create threads, stimulate thought in others) but without the other mods there would be no Sam's Celtic Forum.  Every Game On! thread is initiated by Gyso.  The Post-Game threads, providing a one-stop shop for the local sportswriter's thoughts, are usually created by 112288. There are technical maintenance issues that are addressed that I don't even know about (they probably recognize my technical limitations and want to insulate themselves and the board from the damage i could do) but it is still time invested by them for all of us, all of you.  I'd love for them to get out from behind the curtain and join the discussion, but that doesn't mean they aren't here, on the board, doing something.  Thanks to them we have a hoops home that is functioning.


bob


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beat wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:North Carolina wins and dominates with a 6'10" and 6'11" C-PF combo, basically a twin towers alignment and they are not too good from 3, they just wear you out with inside play and depth. Guess Roy Williams didn't get the memo its a new era and you can only win that way.

So who pray tell are they playing against...............answer College kids.

beat

and where do the pros get the best players and coaches from? by the way there's a coach in San Antonio with a pretty good resume, he starts 2 dinosaur bigs at 4-5 that don't take 3's, his team doesn't play at a fast pace and they just set a team record for wins this season with 64 and the seasons not over.....and they defend.

cowens/oldschool wrote:

beat wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:North Carolina wins and dominates with a 6'10" and 6'11" C-PF combo, basically a twin towers alignment and they are not too good from 3, they just wear you out with inside play and depth. Guess Roy Williams didn't get the memo its a new era and you can only win that way.

So who pray tell are they playing against...............answer College kids.

beat

and where do the pros get the best players and coaches from? by the way there's a coach in San Antonio with a pretty good resume, he starts 2 dinosaur bigs at 4-5 that don't take 3's, his team doesn't play at a fast pace and they just set a team record for wins this season with 64 and the seasons not over.....and they defend.

Can you name another, besides San Antonio?

Doc's a pretty good coach, he has a dinosaur and a few other good players too (CP3, Griffin for most of the year, Paul Pierce, JJ Redick) and they only have 3 more wins than us. Spoelstra has a dinosaur, they are tied with us. Detroit has a dinosaur, they are 3.5 games back from us.

On the other hand, the Cavs play Thompson at C a lot. Toronto has Valanciunas, who is NOT a strong defender, and are guard/wing oriented. GSW is guard/wing oriented. OKC is shooter-oriented. The Grizz are still playing well but they are, and have been without, without their dinosaur for a while. The Blazers, who beat us the other day and are in 6th place in the WC, don't have a dinosaur.

Other than San Antonio how many other teams that have a legit shot at the Finals this year are anchored by dinosaurs?

As far as where the pros get their best players from, it is heavily from colleges because that's what the NBA scouting systems have been centered around for decades, but it is becoming less and less. Kristaps Porzingis, for example. Dario Saric, if/when he comes to Philly. Emmanuel Mudiay. Dragan Bender, playing for Tel Aviv Maccabi, will be a high draft pick this year. You could also say that colleges are where the NBA get most of their busts from too. Does the name James Young of college powerhouse Kentucky, the team you drooled over a few years ago, strike a chord? Anthony Bennett? Not only wasn't he a good #1 pick, he's barely in the league. He plays for Toronto, but you'd hardly know it because he has played a total of 84 minutes all year. By comparison, James Young has played 184.

Here's a link to UNC's roster. http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/153/north-carolina-tar-heels

Check out who is playing the heavy minutes for Roy Williams. Their 6'10", 280# dinosaur (roughly the same as Sully) averaged 8.0mpg this season. 8. The players getting the most minutes are all 6'9" and smaller. A lot of guards. They have no 7'ers. There ARE 7'ers in the NCAA, just none of them on the team going to play for the national championship.

Villanova has a 6/11", 245# center playing 32mpg. That's an inch shorter and about the same weight as Kelly Olynyk. That's 'Nova's "dinosaur".

Unless there is something special about UNC's big that will translate to the pro game better than it did in Roy Williams' eyes, then neither of those teams have an NBA quality center. They are NBA PFs playing an NBA Center's back-to-the-basket game, and that isn't going to work. Put them in against any NBA center and they will struggle because they will be playing a man's game against men and not against boys.

I understand college sports fans' love of their spirit and desire, I get it, but it takes more than just ganas to play in the NBA. Draftexpress does not have one single player from UNC or Villanova being taken in the top 25. Mynbadraft.net has UNC 6'9" Brice Johnson at #28. Nbadraft.net has Johnson @ #11. One player from the two teams in the Finals being drafted in the 1st round, and he's 6'9" 225#. NOT a dinosaur.



bob



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bobheckler wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:

beat wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:North Carolina wins and dominates with a 6'10" and 6'11" C-PF combo, basically a twin towers alignment and they are not too good from 3, they just wear you out with inside play and depth. Guess Roy Williams didn't get the memo its a new era and you can only win that way.

So who pray tell are they playing against...............answer College kids.

beat

and where do the pros get the best players and coaches from? by the way there's a coach in San Antonio with a pretty good resume, he starts 2 dinosaur bigs at 4-5 that don't take 3's, his team doesn't play at a fast pace and they just set a team record for wins this season with 64 and the seasons not over.....and they defend.

Can you name another, besides San Antonio?  

Doc's a pretty good coach, he has a dinosaur and a few other good players too (CP3, Griffin for most of the year, Paul Pierce, JJ Redick) and they only have 3 more wins than us.  Spoelstra has a dinosaur, they are tied with us.  Detroit has a dinosaur, they are 3.5 games back from us.

On the other hand, the Cavs play Thompson at C a lot.  Toronto has Valanciunas, who is NOT a strong defender, and are guard/wing oriented.  GSW is guard/wing oriented.  OKC is shooter-oriented.  The Grizz are still playing well but they are, and have been without, without their dinosaur for a while.  The Blazers, who beat us the other day and are in 6th place in the WC, don't have a dinosaur.

Other than San Antonio how many other teams that have a legit shot at the Finals this year are anchored by dinosaurs?

As far as where the pros get their best players from, it is heavily from colleges because that's what the NBA scouting systems have been centered around for decades, but it is becoming less and less.  Kristaps Porzingis, for example.  Dario Saric, if/when he comes to Philly.  Emmanuel Mudiay.  Dragan Bender, playing for Tel Aviv Maccabi, will be a high draft pick this year.  You could also say that colleges are where the NBA get most of their busts from too.  Does the name James Young of college powerhouse Kentucky, the team you drooled over a few years ago, strike a chord?  Anthony Bennett?  Not only wasn't he a good #1 pick, he's barely in the league.  He plays for Toronto, but you'd hardly know it because he has played a total of 84 minutes all year.  By comparison, James Young has played 184.

Here's a link to UNC's roster.  http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/153/north-carolina-tar-heels

Check out who is playing the heavy minutes for Roy Williams.  Their 6'10", 280# dinosaur (roughly the same as Sully) averaged 8.0mpg this season.  8.  The players getting the most minutes are all 6'9" and smaller.   A lot of guards.  They have no 7'ers.  There ARE 7'ers in the NCAA, just none of them on the team going to play for the national championship.

Villanova has a 6/11", 245# center playing 32mpg.  That's an inch shorter and about the same weight as Kelly Olynyk.  That's 'Nova's "dinosaur".

Unless there is something special about UNC's big that will translate to the pro game better than it did in Roy Williams' eyes, then neither of those teams have an NBA quality center.  They are NBA PFs playing an NBA Center's back-to-the-basket game, and that isn't going to work.  Put them in against any NBA center and they will struggle because they will be playing a man's game against men and not against boys.

I understand college sports fans' love of their spirit and desire, I get it, but it takes more than just ganas to play in the NBA.  Draftexpress does not have one single player from UNC or Villanova being taken in the top 25.  Mynbadraft.net has UNC 6'9" Brice Johnson at #28.  Nbadraft.net has Johnson @ #11.  One player from the two teams in the Finals being drafted in the 1st round, and he's 6'9" 225#.  NOT a dinosaur.



bob



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Memphis Grizzlies

I agree the game has changed, but you can still win with oldschool as Spurs have their best record ever and Grizzlies have been a perennial playoff team, too bad Gasol went down and acquiring Jeff Green sure didn't help them.

thought of a few more:

Cleveland Cavaliers
Minnesota Tmberwolves
Sacramento Kings
Los Angeles Clippers
Los Angeles Lakers
Houston Rockets
Phoenix Suns
Utah Jazz
Denver Nuggets
New Jersey Nets
New York Knicks

is that enough? I probably missed a few

cowens

For an OLD SCHOOL COACH pop has sure embraced the 3 point shot. The last 6 years has seen the Spurs play at a .712 clip (0.93 %) better than the 2nd ranked team. Their .380 3 point shooting percent ranked them 2nd in the league behind the warriors.

swish

Thanks swish, I agree 3 point shooting and pace and space etc is the new NBA, but I don't see it coming from the 4-5 on GS, SA, Clev, Toronto, I mean Love might take a few, but hes inconsistent as hell, hes not a Dirk, that team is still all Lebron.....so its the other positions that are dictating or carrying the trend on their back.

one of the reasons I don't watch much college ball is that game does not translate to the NBA.

all I care about is players who might make it to the NBA.

for me , there are only a couple things that really matter when it comes to how good a player will be in the NBA.

1) skils- this is number one by a long shot

2) hard worker/ desire/drive- to me all these are the same and its the second most important thing when drafting a player.

3) Size based on NBA position- Despite IT's all star development players who are small for their position, have a harder path to becoming quality NBA players.

I could care less HOW a guy plays in college to be honest, especially in the one and done model we have today. Though a high skills player SHOULD set himself apart in school.

you can test for skills , but not for drive/desire/heart , that is where the GM's make their money I guess.

Like I said IT didn't have #3, but he has both #1 and #2.

cowens/oldschool wrote:Does anyone still want us to draft Buddy Hield?

Yes I still like Hield. Oklahoma played the worst game possible but it does not diminish Hield abilities.

Dboss

bobheckler wrote:

beat wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:North Carolina wins and dominates with a 6'10" and 6'11" C-PF combo, basically a twin towers alignment and they are not too good from 3, they just wear you out with inside play and depth. Guess Roy Williams didn't get the memo its a new era and you can only win that way.

So who pray tell are they playing against...............answer College kids.

beat

beat,


BINGO!!

RJ Hunter looked like a superstar in summer league.  Now he can't get off the bench and when he does he struggles to score.  It's not just quality of competition, it's also style of play.  I very rarely watch college sports, and you're the expert on Syracuse basketball, but doesn't Boeheim's team play a 2-3 zone?  That has obviously worked quite well over many years, he has earned A LOT of Final 4 appearances with that as the backbone and guiding philosophy of his defense, but you don't see that in the pros.  The pros play a different game on defense and that forces a different game on offense to defeat it.


Also, on another note:

Cowens (this is part of a response to a post you made to NYCelt) and every other board member:

I may be the mod who does the most posting and creates the most threads (although I am seeing an uptick of non-mod created threads and I think that is excellent!  Start thoughts, create threads, stimulate thought in others) but without the other mods there would be no Sam's Celtic Forum.  Every Game On! thread is initiated by Gyso.  The Post-Game threads, providing a one-stop shop for the local sportswriter's thoughts, are usually created by 112288. There are technical maintenance issues that are addressed that I don't even know about (they probably recognize my technical limitations and want to insulate themselves and the board from the damage i could do) but it is still time invested by them for all of us, all of you.  I'd love for them to get out from behind the curtain and join the discussion, but that doesn't mean they aren't here, on the board, doing something.  Thanks to them we have a hoops home that is functioning.


bob


.

Bob

Far from an expert but in regards to Syracuse..........yep they play that god awful zone, and how many of SU players have gone on the have good to great careers in the NBA? Especially how many of their so called bigs? Answer is not many. Danny Schayes had a nice back up center career, Rony Siekly also had some good season but considering JB began coaching when the "real" dinosaurs roamed the earth I think his record sort of flat out sucks. He caught 3 huge breaks this year. First even getting a shot at the NCAA tourney coming of 6 losses in their last 7 games. Second Michigan State laying an egg in the first round thus SU avoided them. And Third Virginia forgetting or looking like they had never seen a press in their life and even after breaking it still somehow throwing the ball away. It was so bad when the did break it they and 3 on 1 chances and a couple of times they didn't attack put pulled it out to set up. I will give JB a little credit in that he unleashed the hounds with over 10 minutes to go thus at least giving them a chance to come back from 16 down. First in game adjustment I've seen from him in a real long time.

SU zone is and does not translate well to NBA defense.

I have It on reliable first hand information that Hopkins does the bulk of day to day coaching and JB sits in his little room overlooking the Melo Center Court. Even when he had to sit for 9 games due to the scandal the team coached by Hopkin's struggled. Of course he had to follow the way of the zone and could not try anything different.

Watching SU try to rebound out of the zone is rather pathetic. They are not big by any standards and therefore need to box out but don't do it very well. I don't see any player on this team that will be anymore than a marginal NBA player at best and the main reason is lack of defense. If Richardson stays another year he could do well but I would not be shocked he enters the draft.

On a side note...........Marcus was on the sideline with the SU women's team last evening donning the Orange shirt sitting at the end of the bench and was again handing out water bottles and towels. Apparently they have enough people in the video booth. He got a lot of air time on espn too. Of course tomorrow they play UCONN and that will be ugly I'm afraid.

beat

Pelicans are currently in the 6th slot, and even though this article hypothesizes what they would do in the unlikely event they get to draft third, there was enough dicsussion of a bunch of players in it that I thought I would post it. It also suggests a couple of trades NO could make with the Celtics - one of which is absurd: Avery Bradley even up for Omer Asik. No thanks.

http://www.thebirdwrites.com/2016/4/4/11354314/2016-nba-draft-new-orleans-pelicans-third-lottery-jamal-murray-buddy-hield

Can't remember the last time the two teams playing for the NCAA championship only had one player total predicted to be drafted for the entire 60 players in both rounds (Brice Johnson of NC at #11):

http://www.nbadraft.net/2016mock_draft

Not thrilled at all at who they have us taking at #4: 6'4" guard Kris Dunn. Shoot me and put me out of my misery if that happens.

Check out the thumbnail sketch of his weaknesses:

Weaknesses: Struggled to get on the floor in his first two seasons, playing in just 29 games over that span with injuries to the same shoulder. Took a medical hardship in his freshman season ... That concern for future injuries makes him a bit of a wild card ... Turnover prone at 4.1 per game. Must cut down on mental errors and show more value for the ball ... Should look to improve upon making baskets in catch and shoot situations, and playing without the ball ... Must improve as a pick and roll facilitator. Much better in isolation and in the open floor than pick and roll ... Needs to become better at not getting out of control on drives, develop a better runner and pull up instead of always forcing the ball inside and drawing charges and blocked shots ... Played in a depleted Big East Conference, putting his standout statistics under skepticism ...

The Celtics will not draft Kris Dunn.

The mocks are all over the place.

Only Ingram and Simmons will be drafted first.

DA may even trade the pick.

Dboss

dboss wrote:The Celtics will not draft Kris Dunn.

The mocks are all over the place.

Only Ingram and Simmons will be drafted first.

DA may even trade the pick.

Dboss

yep especially this early, most mocks only look at their player rankings for those mocks. Like you said after the top TWO players, there are a lot of players grouped together.

Guards- Hield, Dunn and J. Murray- pick which one fits you better, IMO.

the typical Euro player, who may or may not become a solid NBA player- Bender

Big men with questions- Poeitl, Rabb, Sabonis, Skal

Wings with questions- J. Brown, D. Murray, Beasley, Valentine

so for me 3-14 is really who does your GM like better.


draftnet was really impressed with Sabonis' play over Poeitl in the NCAA though...WOW.

l

I'd be happy with Sabonis and AJ Hammons added to our mix next year.

Re Hield, any player when double teamed can have less than a peak performance. In the NBA there won't be too much double teaming on Hield.

steve3344 wrote:Pelicans are currently in the 6th slot, and even though this article hypothesizes what they would do in the unlikely event they get to draft third, there was enough dicsussion of a bunch of players in it that I thought I would post it.  It also suggests a couple of trades NO could make with the Celtics - one of which is absurd:  Avery Bradley even up for Omer Asik.  No thanks.

http://www.thebirdwrites.com/2016/4/4/11354314/2016-nba-draft-new-orleans-pelicans-third-lottery-jamal-murray-buddy-hield

steve,

It's amazing (or maybe not really) how much of an impact the past can have on future expectations. We Boston Celtics fans expect championships but we expect to get shitty pingpong ball bounces. Nwalins? The opposite. Personally I prefer our way.

Chad Ford has us taking Murray, if our pick is high enough but not so high as to attain Simmons or Ingram, over Hield. He says that Danny and Brad love multi-positional versatility and that moved Murray up on his projection for us.


bob


.

bobheckler wrote:

steve3344 wrote:Pelicans are currently in the 6th slot, and even though this article hypothesizes what they would do in the unlikely event they get to draft third, there was enough dicsussion of a bunch of players in it that I thought I would post it.  It also suggests a couple of trades NO could make with the Celtics - one of which is absurd:  Avery Bradley even up for Omer Asik.  No thanks.

http://www.thebirdwrites.com/2016/4/4/11354314/2016-nba-draft-new-orleans-pelicans-third-lottery-jamal-murray-buddy-hield

steve,

It's amazing (or maybe not really) how much of an impact the past can have on future expectations.  We Boston Celtics fans expect championships but we expect to get shitty pingpong ball bounces.  Nwalins?  The opposite.  Personally I prefer our way.

Chad Ford has us taking Murray, if our pick is high enough but not so high as to attain Simmons or Ingram, over Hield.  He says that Danny and Brad love multi-positional versatility and that moved Murray up on his projection for us.


bob


.

If Ainge drafts a guard with the Nets pick, there will need to be a trade at some point, IMO.

Thomas
Bradley
Smart
and Now Rozier

leaves little minutes for another guard.

but the way the draft is falling today, at the 4-6 pick the best players are all guards!

Unless Bender drops out of the top three after workouts.

I still think J. Brown is the best "fit" for us as another wing player, but he's dropped down at this point. I think he'll rise some with workouts myself, but who knows.