Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

[jeb]

Kevin is playing his way back in shape in my humble opinion. I think every second that passes on a basketball court without injury his confidence that the knee is going to be there for him will make him stronger.

Some guys are beating him right now but you can bet he is taking notes.

Is it time to suit up Lue?

[Sam]

Jeb, your mention of Lue is interesting. I wonder what the relationship between Lue and Rondo is like. I know Lue is the "Director of Basketball Development." (I wonder what that entails. I mean, I doubt he's designing new balls.)

Specifically, I wonder what role he may have in the coaching of the team—and specifically Rondo. 1've learned not to take anything for granted in terms of Rondo's reactions to inputs from anyone.

I don't want to make mountains out of molehills, but I just wonder about the relationship (if there is one).

Sam

[jeb]

Sam

I think it is clear we need a back up point guard. I'd like to see it happen TO put pressure on Rondo. But Eddie aint a ball handler and Daniels aint a point guard.

I'd suit lue up. Inre his relation with Rondo. From what I can gather Lues teams have all thought the world of him. Interesting to think about.

[Sam]

Jeb,

Perhaps a backup PG would help. But, in terms of priorities for setting this team on a more positive course, I find it interesting that the bench has had a positive +/- stat in 12 of the 13 Celtics' games this season. But that's been true in only 7 of the 13 games (and in none of the four losses) for the starters.

The bench could always be better; and perhaps the eventual return of Glen Davis or fewer threes by Sheed or the acquisition of a backup PG would help. But most of my remedial focus is on the starters at this juncture. They set the tone for every game; and it hasn't been pretty lately. Even if the starters could remain even with the competition and let the bench forge a lead, that would be something. But the recent efforts of the bench have recently been devoted primarily to digging the team out of holes created by the starters.

Sam

[jeb]

Sam

The starters are struggling. But + or- or not eddie and Sheed are both in bad bad shooting funks. They are both gunslingers and will shoot their way out of it. But we need those guys to score. And the ball handling with the second unit has been killing way too much clock and taking eddie off his game. Baby should be back soon no?

[Sam]

Jeb,

I'd like to see them give Glen a shot at playing SF. I believe Daniels can be more effective playing the guard position, and I think a trio of Sheed, Williams and Baby up front would give the bench a lot of versatility in the form of three guys who can operate inside or outside and hit the boards pretty effectively.

You're right; the shooting percentages of Sheed and Eddie have certainly been down. But that doesn't always mean they're in a slump. I'm a big believer in putting players in the maximum position to succeed. My feeling is that both Sheed and Eddie are most effective as stake-drivers when the team's gathering momentum; and they're less effective when the pressure's on to make up lost ground. In my mind, they both look uncomfortable shooting—Sheed rushing his shots and not squaring up, and Eddie (who always rushes his shots anyway) shooting from less familiar spots on the floor.

In other words, as far as I'm concerned, it's not about the individuals as much as how much in sync the entire unit is. Despite the shooting woes of Eddie and Sheed, the bench is finding ways to get the job done pretty well; and the starters don't seem able to make equivalent compensations.

Sam

[RosalieTCeltics]

It's funny you should mention Lue, I read where he feels more like a player than a coach at this point. So obviously he is practicing with the team and learning the plays. Seems it won't be long before he suits up. If they had ever gotten rid of TA I think you would have seen that sooner than later.

[dboss]

Sam

In response to your post game thread regarding what's happening in the 1st quarter, I think Boston is not coming out with defensive intensity. The Magic made too many perimeter shots.

Vince Carter 19 footer
Rashard Lewis 26 footer (3 pt shot)
Micheal Piertirs 24 footer (3 pt shot)
Michael Pietrus 25 footer (3 pt shot)
Rashard Lewis 23 footer (3 pt shot)
Rashard Lewis 19 footer
Michael Pietris 23 footer (3 pt shot)

Not pointing any fingers but somebody was not checking their man.

As the game progressed, the Celtics did a better job taking the outside shot away as Orlando only made 2 outside shots in the 2nd quarter and as a result they got back in the game.

Vince Carter 9 footer
Ryan Anderson 24 footer (3 pt shot)

The Celtics continue to win the battle in the paint but the perimeter defense
and consistently defending the pick and role has been lacking.

The Knicks are another team that loves to shoot the 3 ball so it will be interesting to see how intent the Celtics are in taking that option away.

dboss

[Sam]

dboss,

I agree that lack of intensity is the name of the game. I think it extends to both ends of the floor.

Sam

[jeb]

Rosalie

I think it would be a giant help to have Lue or Lester out there with the second unit. Get into sets quicker and let shooters shoot and slashers slash.

I love Eddie but he's a wing. Quis is great and a good ball handler but I'd like to see him freed up to attack.

[bigpygme]

is this the place to wonder and express concern about the gimp with which KG ended the Knicks game? I'll be following this closely in the Globe's reporting and on this site as well.

Michael in Denver

[RosalieTCeltics]

I'm a bit worried about that myself. How he hit that game winner I'll never know after the game he had. Guts I guess. I don't know if Doc addressed this in his post game talk. I was in the kitchen cooking like a good wife!

[bigpygme]

and Dwight H has AWFUL footwork for an otherwise imposing big man ...

Michael in Denver

[dboss]

If anyone expected a blowout against the Knicks you have not been watching what’s going on in the NBA these days.

The Celtics have maintained the biggest point spread between PF and PA. The NBA is very competitive. Even the so called bad teams can beat you.

Boston won this game because they shot and made more free throws and because they executed their offense when they needed to.

KG’s buzzer beater was huge for the team and for him in particular because he has been struggling a bit at the offensive end.

This was not an easy game for the Celtics because the Knicks like to run and gun and shoot the 3 ball (30 attempts yesterday)

The Celtics continue to struggle shooting the ball with KG 4-15, Ray Allen 3-13, Rajon 5-13 and Wallace 0-6 all missing makeable shots.

I have noticed that when Rajon comes out of the game the Celtics office is not unlike a rudderless ship. Doc is probably too paranoid to let Hudson in one of these games but he is the 2nd best PG on the team so why not give him a shot?

In an interview before the Game Doc supported his team shooting the 3 ball but again qualified the statement that it is a good shot if taken within the offense.

Rasheed Wallace is really a very good post defender. When I looked at this team the one thought that I had was that The Celtics had the best front line rotation in the NBA in their 4/5 spot. However, unless and until Rasheed Wallace sets up shop in the post, that rotation strength is marginalized.

KG looked a bit Gimpy yesterday.

Brian Scalabrine may be our best ‘length’ perimeter defender. He came in and did a great job defensively. KG when playing defense on the perimeter against a quick 4 like Rashard Lewis or Al Harrington does not appear to be quick enough to stay with them. KG was able to close out the outside shooting but then was taken off the dribble repeatedly. Scalabrine may be a better option when the other team has a quick 4 in the game. (just an observation)

Rondo had an overall strong game including 4 steals but what about that little herky jerky motion before he takes his free throw shots? Is that suppose to be a trigger?

PP was fantastic all around and the block on Chandler was the play of the game.

House shot better being off the ball.

Ray stunk the place up on offense and is turning into the guy most likely to get used on defense by the other team.. But what a marvelous free throw shooter!

Perkins is slowly turning into a dependable double double guy. His 4 blocks yesterday helped to anchor the defense.

I’ll take this OT win on the road any day of the week.

dboss

[Sam]

The Celtics beat the Knicks in overtime, 107-105. So that’s nice. But it was a typical roller-coaster ride.

There’s one thing I envy about the Knicks—D’Antoni’s “7-second offense.” Get off a shot within the first 7 seconds of the shot clock. If the Celtics played like that, (1) it would force them to get the ball upcourt more quickly; (2) it would prevent them from over-passing until the law averages makes the ball wind up in enemy hands or fumbled out of bounds; (3) it would create a sense of urgency in the offense, and (4) it would give the Celts many more opportunities for clear shots before the defense is so set that some of them might as well be playing a hand of poker.

Finally, after 8 minutes of an offense that looked like a standaround 2-3 zone defense, the Celts showed a little tendency to run…and promptly got nice driving hoops from KG and Ray because (guess what) they made their moves before the Knicks defense could get set. What a concept!

On one play (with about 90 seconds left in the first quarter), Pierce walked the ball up into the forecourt but got it up there within five seconds. He then proceeded to stand beyond the arc and pound the ball into the floor for another seven seconds. He then drove and crashed into a crowd. He did get two free throws out of it, but it was just more of a stagnant offense. Toward the end of the first, the Celts did fashion a 8-point lead as Eddie hit a couple of bombs that came naturally out of the flow of the game rather than being forced.

In the second, the bench (Sheed, Quis, Eddie, Williams with Rondo) built the lead up to 10 on the strength of some good ball push by Rondo. Then their interior defense simply fell apart, as the Knicks scored on penetrations and then some inside-out jumpers; and the Celts compounded the felony by settling for errant threes (one airball by Sheed didn’t come within two feet of the rim) or low-percentage off-balance shots. With the lead down to three, most of the starters came back in, and Rondo hit a nice jumper. KG picked up his third foul in 10 minutes of play, the Celts started settling for contested shots (a whole lot of “settling” going on out there), and New York’s persistence paid off in the form of a tie game at 40.

The Celtics defense seemed slow to react, and the result was that the Knicks were scoring consistently with their inside-out game. Scal came in, spaced the floor, and hit a three to put the Celts three up. What often differentiates Scal’s relatively few shots is that he doesn’t take them if they’re contested; he passes off instead. What a concept!

Near the end of the half, the Celts came running upcourt, and Perk was out in front. So Rondo tried an alley-oop with Perk. Got that? An alley-oop with perk. Perk simply watched the flight of the ball as if it were a low-flying bird. Maybe he thought it was a shot.

One thing I’m noticing is that Ray Allen’s outside shot seems really flat this season. He has never shot with a lot of arc, but it seems flatter than usual, making it more low-percentage. The Celts ended the half up three, very largely on the strength of Paul Pierce’s four-for-four from three-point land. Oh for the days when the starters would fashion a nice lead from the opening gun and the bench would gradually add to it!

The third quarter began with a nice Celtics flurry, as they scored on a number of nice uptempo inside passes (especially to Perk), penetration by Rondo, and a three by Pierce. Within three minutes, they were up 14 and looked well on their way. All of a sudden, the lead was down to one, as that inside-out game of the Knicks began clicking again. Harrington tied it at 75 with a three. On the Celtics’ offensive end, the Knicks’ defense pushed the boys in green progressively farther from the basket. Celtics shots were mainly last-second heaves. Pierce was now spelling Rondo at the point, and the penetration just wasn’t there. New York was on a 27-8 run as the third quarter ended with the home team up by five. Their lead swelled to seven during the fourth. KG, Ray and Sheed were now a combined 3 for 25.

Finally, about halfway through the fourth, KG hit a perimeter jumper. A few foul exchanges later, the Celtics had tied it on a nice Pierce layup. The Celts finally had a layup-only mentality and were accumulating a free throw advantage as a result. The Knicks’ defense started collapsing in the middle, and Ray hit a three off a pass from Rondo underneath. On the other end, the Celtics were swarming on defense. With 1:19 left, it was all tied up and the Celtics had the ball. And a rejuvenated KG hit another one. Boston’s defense stifled the Knicks, who wound up with an out-of-bounds play with 2 second left on the clock and 45 left in the game. A long miss, and the Celts had the ball and a two-point lead with 40 seconds left.

So they called Ray for an offensive foul with 18 second left. Harrington drove, was fouled, and tied the game to force an overtime after a Rondo heave missed.

A three by Paul, a layup by Harrington, two freebies by Paul, One freebie by Lee, and another layup by Paul put the Celts “comfortably” out in front by 4. But no lead seems really comfortable for this team lately. A reverse by Harrington preceded some nice defense by the Knicks, and the Celts had to take time out with one second on the shot clock and a little more than 2 minutges left in overtime. And the buzzer went off before the Celtics even passed the ball in. Finally, they reset the clock and KG missed an alley-oop. Still two up. Rondo steals the rebound on a KG miss, the Celts fumble the ball away, and Pierce made a GREAT block on a Chandler shot. Still the Celts couldn’t score, even after Rondo grabbed another offensive board. Now the Knicks had the ball with 19 second left and down two points. A nice pick-and-roll to Lee made the Celts look as though they weren’t even out there. Boston’s ball with 9 seconds left. And KG hits a jumper on a pick-and-pop play at the buzzer to pull it out.

There were several things I liked in this game. The Celtics didn’t force up so many rushed, contested threes. Rondo combined at least three times with Perk for inside buckets. They played what Heinsohn calls their “attack defense” in spurts. I thought Sheed and Scal played some very good defense. I wish Scal would play more and Sheed would think of himself as a defensive player first. Pierce was great from outside.

But there are too many lapses in the perimeter defense. Both Rondo and Pierce got caught out of control, up in the air, in traffic with nowhere to pass. Their transition defense was sluggish (although fortunately the Knicks didn’t break a lot). Too often the offense stagnated; and it seemed that the sputtering offense all too often coincided with a porous defense.

I don’t usually get so anal in these post-game observations because I’m more interested in general tendencies. But, in light of the Celtics’ recent struggles, I thought maybe more of a detailed analysis would be revealing. Well, all it really revealed was a roller-coaster ride. Who knows, though? Over 60 years of watching this team, I’ve seen many different scenarios that woke them up from slumps. Maybe the fact that the most intense guy on the team hit the buzzer-beater will help to turn things around.

Sam

[jeb]

Sam

Are you worried about the Boston Celtics? Do you fear age has caught up to them? Having watched a ton of hoops and a heap ton of streaks good and bad.

Do you think this team can win it all? I do. I think we cant play much worse on o and yet we are still in every game. The o has just been terrible.

The thing that bothers me the worst is uncontested shots and so many people going to the rim without any consequences whatsoever.

I got to admit I am starting to wonder if they have some issues in the locker room. They just seem real disjointed.

[Sam]

Jeb,

In my mind, I've basically given this team the rest of this calendar year to get its act together because I become concerned. I believe there's a plethora of issues and adjustments to be addressed—some of which we may be aware of and other of which may be hidden from us.

Just a few examples:

The team, as a whole, has not identified a default style of play. They seem to try a little of this (the inside-out game for example) and a little of that (such as the pick-and-roll). One of the best outside shooters of all-time is going to the hoop. Sheed's performing more consistently on defense than on offense, but he seems to consider himself, first and foremost, and offensive leader. KG seems to be trying to figure out what he is at this point in his career. Daniels has displayed a remarkable ability to be a gap-filler (doing whatever is needed to win) but doesn't have a consistent role. The team's best explosiveness this season has come during their occasional uptempo forays, yet Rondo seems to be walking the ball up more often than not. Their passing is a mixed blessing; it can produce a lot of baskets, but overpassing is a frequent malady.

It's a team of inconsistencies and anomalies. And the complexity could increase when Davis comes back. I think they still need a lot of time to gain an identity; and they may also need something to alert them to the urgency of the matter.

Sam

[jeb]

Sam

I concur. My guess is we will be humming by the new year. Sheed is very well respected by his team and will figure out a place for himself. Kevin is adjusting to new realities inre his body but I think will figure it out as time passes and his body will meet him in the middle. Quis will continue to fill gaps.

Overpassing never bugs me. Underpassing and one on one play do.

BBD will help with rebounds and his age will help with day games and back to backs.

I have a lot of faith in Doc and the coaching staff. I have a lot of faith in Danny.

I will say again that I think we need a point guard on the second unit or just let Rondo play 39 minutes a game. He can handle it being young and in peak condition.

[dboss]

Sam

It is frustrating for me when I see the Celtics actually score fast points in one game and then come up with only 5 fast break points against the Knicks. I do not know if that was by designed or just part of the ongoing lack of a consistent running game.

I do think that part of the problem is the time it takes to integrate players into the "TEAM" and helping the new players understand their roles if in fact they have been clearly spelled out.

Daniels is the type of player that has adjusted well although I think he is being under-utilized given his versatility

Rasheed has always been a big time scorer and is used to getting his share of looks from the perimeter

Williams is still trying to establish himself as a front line player that deserves time on the court.

For the benefit of the team Rasheed's role cannot simply be a big coming of the bench. His contribution on the glass and defensively is needed more than his long range bombs.

I think the problem is that the Celtics over estimated his impact offensively as an outside shooter. However Rasheed could become a serious scoring and offensive rebounding threat in the low post option.

I think it is going to take some time for the Celtics to figure this out and/or help Sheed make the transition as a player.

I like seeing Rondo in there with the second unit but it also highlights the need for a BU point guard other than House or Daniels.

At this point I do not see Boston being a running team with the current age configuration of their players and the fact that Doc is not comfortable playing his bench extended minutes unless it's a blowout. There best chance or winning is to utilize their big front line to pound people inside, controlling the glass and limiting layup opportunities.

This issue will become even more evident in December when we play 10 out of 14 games on the roads. While the lineup we will face are not great teams at least half of them like to get up and down. The uptempo teams include Charlotte, OKC, Washington (with a heatlhy Jamison), Chicago, Philly, Indiana, and Orlando

The 4 games that we lost were all to teams that like to push the ball.

Those 14 games in December will establish who the Celtics are as a team this year. I am very apprehensive because I have not figure how the Celtics will play against those teams.

dboss

[Sam]

Dboss,

I don't expect them to become a running team in the near future. But I can see no reason why they can't constantly push the ball into the forecourt to get into the halfcourt game before the defense is comfortable. That's very different from fast breaking.

Also, I think it's not too much to ask a team with this much depth to mount at least two or three opportunistic fast break spurts at various points in a game. Such spurts, if timed judiciously, can really extend leads, reverse momentum, sink daggers, and provide many other benefits.

Since before the season, we've all heard so much about how Sheed would help to spread the floor. Sometimes I wonder whether, with Sheed and House (and even Ray at times) in there together, they have too many players spreading the floor and not enough inside balance on that unit.

And, by the way, one of the best ways for the Celtics to minimize fast break opportunities for uptempo opponents is to limit the number of rushed, forced, off-balance perimeter shots they (the Celtics) take and long rebounds they generate.

Sam

[dboss]

Sam

Pushing the ball into the frontcourt still requires that the team runs and I have a feeling we are not going to see much of that this year. As a group this team does not have the capacity to extend themselves on the defensive end and then get into their offence quicker because the team will not run consistently and may not have the stamina to play that way. It is quite possible that the old legs on this team prevents the big three from playing quicker on the offense, end to end.

I think the Celtics have been getting a lot of wide open looks but they just have not been hitting from the outside. That's were a determination to go inside first needs to be the focal point of thier offense.

My guess is that guys will come out of thier shooting slumps and other guys will go in them but there is still enough talent on this team to win games as long as the defense is playing well together. This team is not going to outscore people although every game that they win was the result of scoring more points than their opponents. The Celtics will win with their defense. The only solution to winning is their championship level defense.

dboss

[beat]

Dboss and Sam

Been reading your give and take here a bit. I guess there is a fine line to the all out fast break and pushing the ball up the floor. The fast break tries to gain a man advantage in the offensive end which hopefully results in a good quick look at a shot, hopefully a layup. If we have 3 running this is possible.

As to just pushing the ball up is a tad slower and doesn't look so much for a manpower advantage jus the advantage that people may be out of possition or have to pick up a mismatch, just that the defense cannot dig in and does not have the time too either. If we can do this effectively either off a rebound or even a made basket we can gain an advantage on most possessions which can result in better shots and hopefully a better %.

Just never understood walking the ball up the floor period. We have a deep bench lets use it.

Some have pointed out they feel the Celtics are "playing" their way into shape. If they are (with the exception of KG) they shouldn't be. Red prided himself on having the team ready to play opening night.

We need to get easy shots and yes we have missed open looks, but sometimes the offense totally goes into a funk and uptempo would solve a lot of those issues if we could ever make a commetment to it.

I know we will do well on the defensive end but even as good as that is and as consistant as it is. We need to be able to score into the 90's+ consistantly. Getting easy shots, getting to the foul line and CONVERTING! are ways to do it. And how do we get those........by the occasional fast break and pushing the ball into the offensive end as quickly as we can.

beat

[Sam]

Pushing the ball doesn't really necessitate running. They can jog or lope like Pierce so often does. They can also refrain from standing beyond the perimeter and pounding the ball into the floor six times before initiating anything in the halfcourt, while their options become progressively more limited and the defense knows it. They need to create a spirit of liveliness as they transition from defense to offense. All of that's a LOT different from sheer running.

Frankly, I've heard enough about age. When they make stops or steals and get on a run, they're magically able to dash down the floor repeatedly without having to turn back the calendar. They're supposed to be part of the superior athleticism generation. You know...genetics, nutrition, conditioning methods, all that stuff that allegedly makes them so vastly superior to players of the past.

If they need to dial back their minutes, there are plenty of guys on the bench to help. I don't see Ray slowing down a lot. If Pierce needs to pace himself more, fine...I don't believe Daniels is getting enough minutes anyway. I'd like to see Hudson and Giddens reprise the Jones Boys' act of many years ago and create a few minutes of organized mayhem out there once or twice a game.

The same old plod, pound, stand, thrust, miss, complain, retreat act is what's old—not the players. KG, Ray, Pierce and Sheed are playing 2%, 3%, 6%, and 33% (respectively) fewer minutes per game than they did last season, and it's early in the season too, so they should be relatively fresh.

I'm not at all looking for sheer speed out there. (Rondo's is largely wasted.) I'm looking for quickness, energy, anticipation, alertness, aggressivenes...what Heinsohn alludes to as "attack basketball" at both ends. Frankly, if they're suddenly unable to provide those things, even early in the season, then it's worry time.

Man, I'd LOVE to be able to see some of their practices. And, by the way, that Excel spreadsheet is great!. I've even added a split according to their wins versus their losses, and I think I got the forumulas right. Thank you so much.

Sam

[Outside]

Sam,

I agree. They'd be a lot better off if the veterans would play with targeted intensity during their stints rather than conserving themselves. As you point out, if they need fewer minutes to expend that energy while they're in, fine.

In my mind, the only guy who gets a pass on this issue at this point is KG, since he's still in rehab/recovery mode. I wouldn't even let Pierce get away with it. If you do, where does that stop? "Okay, new rule. We can only have two of the Glacial Group (Pierce, Rasheed, Perk, and KG) on the floor together at the same time."

The thing that stands out to me is that I haven't seen a lot of the Celtics this season, but something I've seen repeatedly is Rondo sprinting with the ball against multiple defenders but no other Celtic is even visible yet, so Rondo has to slow down, back the ball out, and wait for everyone else. I know Rondo's fast, but there's no excuse to have no one else -- no one -- even in the picture. And I'm talking about a wide view of the front court, not a close-up.

I don't know who specifically to blame for not hustling upcourt, so I'll blame everyone. Actually, I do know who to blame, but it's irrelevant. They need to decide as a group to overcome their individual limitations and get their butts up the court.

"The same old plod, pound, stand, thrust, miss, complain, retreat act is what's old—not the players." I'd print that up and put it on the locker room wall. I'd confront them with it, challenge them with it. I'd keep benching guys until I find someone who's willing to run. And like you guys point out, I don't mean just fast-breaking, I mainly mean pushing the ball up to take advantage before the defense is set. It leads to easy baskets, and easy baskets are crucial for this team.

Outside

[RosalieTCeltics]

It seems that age has become a major topic about this team when we are now only fourteen games into the season. All of a sudden they are OLD.
What was the average age of the big three in l986? I don't have those figures here. Also, remember that Bill Walton was into his final years as a pro,
and Dennis Johnson was hardly a baby. Do you really think that age is the major factor on this team as far as losing is concerned. I say, give them ten to fifteen more games, then form a true opinion. This is a long season, I think they truly have not played anywhere near their abilities, taking most teams for granted. What happened with Orlando, I don't know. That Knick game should be an eye opener to them all. They should have won by 20 points. I am more than willing to wait it out, this will turn around.

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