Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

by **babyskyhook** Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:33 pm

Sam wrote:It was a rather strange game. Definitely a plus on the "improvment ledger" but also undoubtedly revealing areas on which the Celts still have to work. (Rebounding would be #1 in my mind, and the lack of synergy among the bench players would be #2.)

I agree with Mrkleen that KG just keeps looking better and better.

Tonight they're facing another rising team that's young and athletic; and the Celts' bench will probably play more minutes on the end of a back-to-back. It will be interesting to see how that combination of factors will affect the outcome. Whatever happens, I'm at least as interested in what the Celtics learn from the experience as I am in another win. The road trip is already a big success.

Sam

Sam-

It's so funny that you use the word "strange" b/c as I was watching the game on Tivo last night I kept saying the same thing. All of those unforced turnovers by the Spurs (from the sloppy passes thrown numerous times to Hill's traveling and Finley's stepping out of bounds while both were setting up threes) were so uncharacteristic- it didn't seem like I was watching a Spurs game. And weird things like Pop not having Manu on the floor down the stretch and the Blair tip in for the Cs- just weird stuff that was so out of character.

It seemed like the Cs played a solid but not spectacular game, and that the Spurs are still out of sync/ old/ slow.

KG and Rondo were absolutely the best players on the floor, and they ultimately made the difference. I agree with you and Kleen- KG looked better last night that he has since the injury, and was very close to his old form. HE got up for that one alley-oop higher than any other time I've seen this year. His lift, and his confidence in the knee, looks like it's coming back.

OKC will be an interesting matchup, as they play with a lot of energy and have some serious athletes. THat place will be rocking tonight with the Cs in town. Will be interesting to see what happens on the Cs defensive glass tonight on the 2nd night of a back2back with all of those young guys from OKC jumping out of the gym.

by **Sam** Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:17 am

This game was the Celtics' from the start, which was surprising mainly since it was the Celtics' fourth game in six nights, second game of a back-to-back, and the getaway game of a demanding road trip. What was not surprising was that a starting Celtics team of excellent complementary parts could demolish a group of promising young opponents who now depend largely on one player (Kevin Durant) offensively and pretty much no one defensively.

Almost from the opening tip, the Celtics starters used a smoothly functioning offense, excellent ball movement, and a passing clinic to forge a healthy lead. Only Durant's amazing shooting and a Celtics defense that allowed too many Thunder trips to the hoop prevented the game from turning into an early rout. I felt the Celtics defense focused too much on guarding the shooting hands of marginal Thunder shooters rather than staying in front of them to prevent those penetrations.

What the Thunder has going for them is future promise, young legs, and of course Durant. What they lack is a consistent threat not named Durant from the perimeter and sustained defensive ability.

With a few halftime tweaks, including a much more "honest" and intense defensive alignment, the Celtics easily expanded an 11-point halftime lead to 23 at the end of three quarters...and the final spread of only 18 points was largely a function of extended garbage time.

Once again, KG was huge. He missed exactly one field goal attempt and was 3-3 from the line in compiling a 23/8/3 line in only 25 minutes filled with energetic offensive acrobatics and stiff defense. He was only one of seven Celts in double figures. Pierce scored 21 with nary a point in the second half (saying laughingly after the game that he
decided to become a "decoy" in the last two stanzas).

For the most part, the other Celtics seemed to be on cruise control, with Perk, Rondo, Ray, Sheed and Eddie all chipping in but not having to over-exert themselves in manageable minutes. No Celtic played more than Ray's 33 minutes. The Bostonians' dominance was illustrated by the disparities in rebounds (40-30) and assists (24-11); and those pluralities were diminished by the playground ball that comprised much of the final quarter.

Perhaps it's fitting to observe that the last two evenings of a very satisfying and reassuring 4-0 road trip were spent playing one team that's probably too old and another that's probably too young to compete successfully with the Celtics at this point in time.

I hope Doc gives the guys at least one day off (preferably two) and then returns to some serious work on two areas that continued to show a need for improvement even in this laugher: interior defense and bench cohesiveness.

Sam

by **gacracker** Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:22 am

I am probably the least knowledgeable basketball fan here at Sams Club (with the nerve to post regularly) so bear with me... but with Daniels in the game, why is Eddie House still bringing the ball up the court?

Someone enlighten me please! I suffer from IBS when House directs the attack... or even advances the ball.

BTW, two nights ago during the Celtic post game program, TommyH described the Spurs as "washed up."

crackhead

by **mrkleen09** Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:37 am

gacracker wrote:I am probably the least knowledgeable basketball fan here at Sams Club (with the nerve to post regularly) so bear with me... but with Daniels in the game, why is Eddie House still bringing the ball up the court?

Someone enlighten me please! I suffer from IBS when House directs the attack... or even advances the ball.

BTW, two nights ago during the Celtic post game program, TommyH described the Spurs as "washed up."

crackhead

GC - I have two thoughts on this.

When Rondo is in the game, sometimes Allen or Pierce bring the ball up - getting the ball to your PG is important, but not always possible. It may be that Daniels is covered, it may be that he has a run out and takes a chance at a fast break, it may be that he forgets (since he isnt a PG), it may be that Doc likes Eddie to do his share of bringing it up unless he is under full court pressure - when Daniels should do it.

Also, while I think for a pressure stand point, Daniels is always going to be better with the ball than the 2 or 3 guarding him, I also dont see Daniels ability with the ball all the much better than House's. I mean, the offense is just as slow and stagnant when Marquis brings it up as when Eddie does....so I really dont see a big advantage one way or another. Neither of them has major handle, and I have never seen Daniels bring it up, see an opening and drive to the hoop. He is just as slow to start the offense as House.

I think it would be nice to have a real backup PG that could push tempo and hit some open jumpers.....but the combination of House and Daniels is serviceable.

As an aside, I think Daniels needs to get more aggressive with his offense. Every time he makes a move, something good happens - but it has been a while since I have seen him get aggressive and really take it to his man. Maybe that is his nature - as a laid back guy, he just plays solid and if the game comes to him he will score etc. But I think he is much better than he is showing so far, and would like to see him get more involved.

by **bobc33** Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:46 am

gacracker wrote:I am probably the least knowledgeable basketball fan here at Sams Club (with the nerve to post regularly) so bear with me... but with Daniels in the game, why is Eddie House still bringing the ball up the court?

Someone enlighten me please! I suffer from IBS when House directs the attack... or even advances the ball.

BTW, two nights ago during the Celtic post game program, TommyH described the Spurs as "washed up."

crackhead

GC,

That is a good question, I agree with the post above that neither is really a good ball handler if there is pressure.

My question is why is Ray leading the team in minutes played with both Eddie and Daniels available to play the 2 spot?

by **Sam** Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:54 am

They vary things depending on situations...which side of the floor the
outlet pass comes from, where the defensive pressure is coming from,
matchups, whether the other guard got caught under the basket in
rebound action and they want to push the ball, etc. When Rondo's in
the game, sometimes Ray brings it up. When Cousy was in the game, Sam
Jones OFTEN brought the ball up. DJ and Danny were pretty
interchangeable in that respect. In general, they try to refrain from
being overly predictable and always doing things the same way because
that makes life much easier for the defense.

Moreover, if you see Marquis and Eddie in the game together, it's not a
given that Marquis is playing the point because they very often like to
see Quis posting up people or looking for opportunities inside. Sometimes that's just not consistent with also laying the point responsibilities onto him.

For the most part, teams focus on trying to identify and exploit
opportunities rather than being constrained by fear of all the bad
things that could possibly happen. Eddie's not the greatest ballhandler or playmaker, but concerns about his being stripped all the time are total myths. Both last season and this season, he has averaged fewer than one turnover per game (0.8 to be exact).

There may come a time this season when a basic style is well-enough identified with the bench so that the lack of a "pure" backup PG will obviously be holding them back. But that time has not yet arrived because there really is no basic structure to the bench offense.

Sheed still seems to have an "I think I'll try this" mentality as he sort of slides inside and outside. Daniels keeps thrusting and probing but doesn't seem at all comfortable knowing where to be and when. Eddie usually benefits greatly from inside-out pass-and-shoot opportunities, but this season he's spending an inordinate amount of time trying to create shots for himself. Williams is proving very helpful, but his greatest value on offense is in the rebounding area, not in implementing plays. And the fifth guy out there could be Ray, Pierce or Rondo—a variability that often encourages more free-lancing than playmaking.

When things settle down and the various bench components get more of a sense of their best "fit," then the capabilities of the PG may matter more than they do now so as to enable that "fit." Right now, it's kind of random out there to the point where even a very good PG might possibly have difficulty figuring out where each of his benchmates likes the ball.

So, at this juncture, until the bench scorers get a better fix on how best to fit in, I'm not sure it really matters (within reason) who brings up the ball.

Sam

by **bigpygme** Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:30 am

... But, isn't it a given that it is helpful in general to have House free
to move without the ball to set up that quick release, off a screen
or on an inside-out pass, and so in order for that play to be an option
when those two are out there, having Daniels bring the ball up more often than not would be the better alternative?

Michael in Denver

by **gacracker** Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:05 am

Sam wrote: Eddie's not the greatest ballhandler or playmaker, but concerns about his being stripped all the time are total myths. Both last season and this season, he has averaged fewer than one turnover per game (0.8 to be exact).

Sam

Well I've certainly bought into this myth frequently sensing (and squirming, OMG!!!) that House is about to be stripped. He certainly advances the ball IMHO very tentatively as though feeling a need to protect against being stripped or maybe double teamed. Isn't that why he frequently turns his back to the defender instead of facing the basket while advancing the ball?

I dont notice Daniels so quick to turn like that.

Its hard to advance the ball beyond a snail's pace once you turn and begin to back the ball down the court. I don't see Rondo ever doing that. Is that because he can blow by the defender if pressured?

GC

by **dboss** Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:18 am

Sam

I think the Celtics need a bu pg

dboss

by **jeb** Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:58 am

SUit up Lue and I'll tel you why. Daniels and Eddie are too valuable on Offense to waste doing something they are not suited to.

Watch Daniels when he is on the floor with Rondo.

Watch Eddie when he does not bring the ball up the floor and can play wing.

A second point guard imho sends the second unit into the stratosphere.

by **mrkleen09** Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:58 am

bobc33 wrote:My question is why is Ray leading the team in minutes played with both Eddie and Daniels available to play the 2 spot?

He isnt. Paul Pierce and Ray Allen are both averaging 35.5 mpg - which is 32nd in the NBA - and less than in any season besides Ray's rookie season.

Not to mention, the little bump in minutes that Ray has seen lately is directly related to him playing better and shooting better. Maybe he went to Doc and said he needed more minutes to get his stroke going.

by **jeb** Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:15 pm

Kobe and Gasol are both playing HUGE minutes on aging bodies. The Lakers just plain dont have a bench that can compete against the top 15 teams in the game.

And dig this. As you all know every time you look the Lakes are playing (insert cream puff) at home. But it wont last. How many minutes are kobe and Gasol going to play in a tough road game against the Magic or the Hawks? Will Phils giant ego let him rest his most important players in the face of losing?

To me thats the main reason I feel we have a really good chance to beat the Lakes in a seven gm series. They are going to be worn out. While PP and Kg are sitting entire 4th quarters they are on the floor gettin g pounded.

by **jeb** Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:39 pm

“His energy was great,” Cavs coach Mike Brown said. “When he came to the sideline for a timeout, I told the coaches to step aside and said, ‘Bron, you take over the huddle.”’

"dancing" "king" James annoys Noah and the Bulls. What a freakshow. It's going to be fun god willing to beat this kid.

by **cowens/oldschool** Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:56 pm

jeb65 wrote:Kobe and Gasol are both playing HUGE minutes on aging bodies. The Lakers just plain dont have a bench that can compete against the top 15 teams in the game.

And dig this. As you all know every time you look the Lakes are playing (insert cream puff) at home. But it wont last. How many minutes are kobe and Gasol going to play in a tough road game against the Magic or the Hawks? Will Phils giant ego let him rest his most important players in the face of losing?

To me thats the main reason I feel we have a really good chance to beat the Lakes in a seven gm series. They are going to be worn out. While PP and Kg are sitting entire 4th quarters they are on the floor gettin g pounded.

it was great to see them get pounded last nite,Kobe was ballhog at crunch time,but missing very badly,and Lakers had no answer for Wade at point,picking them apart with off the ball movement in the paint and feeds from Wade.....can't wait to play/crush LA.

by **Sam** Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:59 pm

Michael,

It isn't a given that you sacrifice something to gain something. With Eddie committing only 0.8 turnovers a game, is what you'd "gain" by having Daniels bring up the ball worth what you'd lose by compromising his ability to operate in the lane?

Sam

by **sinus007** Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:07 pm

Hi,
I guess I'm in 'BU PG' camp. One of the reasons for that is that with a real PG on the court EH can do what RA does w/Rondo when he's chased all over the court: (a) prevent, on many occations, double team-ing PP, KG or Perk and, (b) indirect control of the opposition's traffic. Well, it's actually 2 reasons, but the more the better.

AK

by **dboss** Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:27 pm

Sam over the past 5 games Eddie has a total of 3 assists.

When I look at the 2nd unit we have a great spot up shooter in Eddie, a very good defender and slasher in Daniels, a big in Wallace who can post up, rebound or step outside for a three pointers, a BU PF in Williams/Scalabrine that provide stability to the second unit. Baby will bring a big lift to that unit.

The missing piece is the floor general. How can Boston take advantage of the skills of these players? I think the answer is that the Celtics do need a solid BU point guard that can run the offense.

Given the way our starting five is playing, in general the Celtics will be unbeatable if the 2nd unit has a catalyst to run the offense.

dboss

by **gacracker** Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:47 pm

Sam wrote:Michael,

It isn't a given that you sacrifice something to gain something. With Eddie committing only 0.8 turnovers a game, is what you'd "gain" by having Daniels bring up the ball worth what you'd lose by compromising his ability to operate in the lane?

Sam

House's seemingly low number of TO's (not the Holy Grail or even reflective of his ball handling competence) is because he slows the advance of the ball down the court to right at glacial speed to avoid TO's. Seems to me that Dainels' ball handling competency is measureably higher and it allows House to do what he does best, spot up and run to the open spaces.

At the very least, Daniels is facing/looking up court while he is advancing the ball. Maybe Daniels will seem a mismatch or something good and react to it... while House seems to be "advancing to the rear" with one eye on the ball, the other eye on the hand trying to bounce the ball. If he had a needed third eye, say in the back of his head, it would be looking for the double team... which is surely on the way!

House dribbling reminds me of the grown kid riding the bicycle with the training wheels still on it. Yes the kid rarely tumps over on his bike (like Eddie's low TO rate) but that's because of the training wheels, not because of real riding competence.

Eddie does not inspire confidence handling the ball... and I am getting grayer, thinner hair.

GC

by **bobc33** Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:48 pm

mrkleen09 wrote:
bobc33 wrote:My question is why is Ray leading the team in minutes played with both Eddie and Daniels available to play the 2 spot?

He isnt. Paul Pierce and Ray Allen are both averaging 35.5 mpg - which is 32nd in the NBA - and less than in any season besides Ray's rookie season.

Not to mention, the little bump in minutes that Ray has seen lately is directly related to him playing better and shooting better. Maybe he went to Doc and said he needed more minutes to get his stroke going.

OK, My revised question is why is Ray tied for the team lead in minutes played with both Eddie and Daniels available to play the 2 spot? Ray plays that much all year he will be out of gas again these next playoffs. If he went to Doc asking for more minutes Doc should tell him save it for June.

by **LACELTFAN** Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:24 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:
jeb65 wrote:Kobe and Gasol are both playing HUGE minutes on aging bodies. The Lakers just plain dont have a bench that can compete against the top 15 teams in the game.

And dig this. As you all know every time you look the Lakes are playing (insert cream puff) at home. But it wont last. How many minutes are kobe and Gasol going to play in a tough road game against the Magic or the Hawks? Will Phils giant ego let him rest his most important players in the face of losing?

To me thats the main reason I feel we have a really good chance to beat the Lakes in a seven gm series. They are going to be worn out. While PP and Kg are sitting entire 4th quarters they are on the floor gettin g pounded.

it was great to see them get pounded last nite,Kobe was ballhog at crunch time,but missing very badly,and Lakers had no answer for Wade at point,picking them apart with off the ball movement in the paint and feeds from Wade.....can't wait to play/crush LA.

I know Kobe is very good at making shots in the clutch but last night was luck...off the glass....I don't care what they say....if Miami didn't miss so many freethrows ( are you listening Celtics?) they would have won going away...at the end instead of being taken out by a lucky heave....

by **Sam** Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:11 am

Bobc,

It seems a lot of people are worried about Ray's minutes. Perhaps his ankle history could justify some concern, although I don't believe it's been so prolonged as to be considered chronic.

On the other hand, consider the following:

• Ray keeps himself in very good shape. This is his 14th season (if I counted correctly), and he has averaged more than his current 35.5 minutes per game in 11 of those seasons.

• Ray does play a relatively energetic game for a shooting guard, running a lot of curls to get himself open. But he also spends a lot of time on the perimeter rather than in the thick of the action.

• In general, the "mileage" put on by guards (running between offensive perimeter to defensive perimeter) is lower than that of big men (who normally run at least from foul line to foul line).

• I looked up the minutes stat at age 34 for a lot of the premier shooting guards in the league over the years. True, a few weren't even still in the game at that age (Earl Monroe, George Gervin). But there were quite a few who logged heavy minutes at that age. In fact, only one on my list (Sam Jones, who had pretty decent subs named Havlicek and Siegfried) played fewer minutes (2.5 to be exact) than Ray's now playing at age 34:

38.8 Michael Jordan
37.8 Hal Greer (during a very uptempo era)
36.9 Reggie Miller
36.6 Clyde Drexler
35.7 Jerry West (during a very uptempo era)
35.5 Ray Allen
33.0 Sam Jones (during a very uptempo era)

So I'm not at all sure that Ray's minutes are extraordinary for that position at that age. Nonetheless, his time on the floor does bear watching. Thankfully, it's down a bit from last season; and I do believe Doc's alternating Ray and Pierce (and even Rondo at times) in terms of playing time with the bench.

Besides, the more I see Ray on the floor, the less self-conscious I am about my follically challenged head. (Of course his is probably voluntary.)

Sam

by **Sam** Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:15 am

LACeltFan,

A heave like that makes you want to grind your teeth, doesn't it?

Maybe the basketball gods are still trying to atone to Lakers fans for Nellie's bounce in 1969.

Sam

by **gyso** Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:10 am

Bobc,

I totally understand your position on Ray Allen's minutes. Last year, because of injuries, Pierce and Allen played huge minutes in the quest to get to a better seed. Both of them didn't have much in the tank come playoff time. Ray has nagging soreness (or worse) in his ankles and Paul couldn't fight through the double teams quick enough or strong enough to get the results we all hoped for.

This year, we have the quality backups to ratchet down those minutes.

This year (minus the injuries) the Lakers are in a situation somewhat similar to one that we were in last year; playing their starters huge minute game in and game out. Towards the end of the season, they will be fighting the nagging injuries. Sprains, strains, tendonitus, etc. all made harder to recover from due to fatigue.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

As far as the other issue here, the lack of a backup PG, we have one. He just hasn't played yet due to the logjam of contracts on the Celtics. Once we get to the tradeing deadline, we will trade away enough of the expiring contracts to create room to move in. Tyronn Lue is dressed up like a coach on our bench and not playing on a third rate team for a reason. He is learning the system and (I would imagine) practicing with the team.

Meanwhile, the Celtics play the roster they have and hope to have enough of an advantage over the majority of the other teams in the NBA to still compete for the top seed in the playoffs early on. After the trading deadline, I magine this issue will be replaced with another not quite so urgent one...finding the time to play everyone enough to keep them happy.

gyso

by **mrkleen09** Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:34 am

bobc33 wrote:
mrkleen09 wrote:
bobc33 wrote:My question is why is Ray leading the team in minutes played with both Eddie and Daniels available to play the 2 spot?

He isnt. Paul Pierce and Ray Allen are both averaging 35.5 mpg - which is 32nd in the NBA - and less than in any season besides Ray's rookie season.

Not to mention, the little bump in minutes that Ray has seen lately is directly related to him playing better and shooting better. Maybe he went to Doc and said he needed more minutes to get his stroke going.

OK, My revised question is why is Ray tied for the team lead in minutes played with both Eddie and Daniels available to play the 2 spot? Ray plays that much all year he will be out of gas again these next playoffs. If he went to Doc asking for more minutes Doc should tell him save it for June.

I dont agree Bob. 35 minutes a game for a guy that is in great shape and loves to play ball is NOTHING.

He is playing the lowest MPG of any season in his career (other than his rookie year), so Doc is already taking his minutes into consideration. But Doc is not going to question someone like Ray - who knows his body better than anyone else, and knows what he can and cannot take. If Ray tells him he needs a few extra minutes to get his stroke going, Doc is going to give them to him.

by **swedeinestonia** Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:44 am

There are minutes and there are minutes.

It is those "extra", grinding minutes that put a lot of tax on your body. As long as he feels good and has energy I think it is better to let him play. You can always adjust accordingly with off game exercise the following days.

I do not think Ray is as "knuckle-headed" as lets say KG would be. I think he can regulate himself fine.

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Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)