Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

[dboss]

Sam the Celtics always slow the ball down in the last few minutes because they always go to the high isolation so that they can give the ball to Paul Pierce.

That is a coaches' decision. I have little confidence that PP is going to make a good play in that situation. I do not know what the overall success rate is but considering the problems Boston has had closing out games lately, I would say that there needs to be a change.

I also do not understand why Rondo was not in the game at the end. For crying out loud he is the starting PG and perhaps the only one on the team that could get to the rim.

The other things is that we were only down by one point yet we end up with a deep shot from Ray who continues to miss making shots from the outside. Pierce is really not a good play maker. He has made plays for other before but Rondo is the play maker.

The Celtics have not beat a good team since Xmas.

The Celtics played with a lot of energy but they were playing the Lakers so what would we expect to see.

I see nothing different going on here. Boston is unable to close games out.

Doc's peaking order mentality is the ruin of this team. It is madness that they would do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result.

I also have a few questions for the board.

Is Ray Allen just in a prolonged shooting slump or has father time caught up with him? Would a reduction in minutes help? Should the Celtics consider trading him? Should he become a rotation player instead of a starter?

dboss

[beat]

dboss

It could be RA is done as anything weve seen in the past.
The legs may not be there and perhaps not starting would be best for him now. Let him get his 25 minutes a game and perhaps the shot will come back.

So if he were benched who starts............Tony?

beat

[112288]

Sam the Celtics always slow the ball down in the last few minutes because they always go to the high isolation so that they can give the ball to Paul Pierce.

That is a coaches' decision. I have little confidence that PP is going to make a good play in that situation. I do not know what the overall success rate is but considering the problems Boston has had closing out games lately, I would say that there needs to be a change.

I also do not understand why Rondo was not in the game at the end. For crying out loud he is the starting PG and perhaps the only one on the team that could get to the rim.

The other things is that we were only down by one point yet we end up with a deep shot from Ray who continues to miss making shots from the outside. Pierce is really not a good play maker. He has made plays for other before but Rondo is the play maker.

The Celtics have not beat a good team since Xmas.


I agree with what you posted. Yes Ray would be a great guy off the bench. Get rid of House. Perhaps package someone like TA and a draft choice for a shooting guard.

112288

The Celtics played with a lot of energy but they were playing the Lakers so what would we expect to see.

I see nothing different going on here. Boston is unable to close games out.

Doc's peaking order mentality is the ruin of this team. It is madness that they would do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result.

I also have a few questions for the board.

Is Ray Allen just in a prolonged shooting slump or has father time caught up with him? Would a reduction in minutes help? Should the Celtics consider trading him? Should he become a rotation player instead of a starter?

dboss

[NYCelt]

Is Ray Allen just in a prolonged shooting slump or has father time caught up with him? Would a reduction in minutes help? Should the Celtics consider trading him? Should he become a rotation player instead of a starter?

dboss

Hey dboss; I hope all is well.

I think it's just a nasty slump. Even in games where he's had a lot of minutes his form is still consistent at the end right down to the amount of elevation on his jumper. Maybe as telling as form is the fact that he's not front-rimming it (he actually more often seems to be long), which would tell me the legs aren't tired. You hear and see often that guards can play to a ripe old age and there are plenty of examples around the league. I think Ray's conditioning is up there with the best of them.

My guess on trading Ray is that it would have more to do with money for the future than his ability to continue playing at a relatively high level for another season or even two; unless a surprise deal for a talented shooter comes up awfully quick. We'll see where the team stands on negotiating after the season anyway.

A reduction in minutes couldn't hurt, especially at times like today when someone like TA has a hot hand, at least until Ray is out of this funk.

I don't think making him a rotation player instead of a starter is going to accomplish anything in particular, especially when there is no-one on the roster who seems more capable to step in and take the majority of minutes at 2-guard.

Regards

[jeb]

I vote reduced minutes for Ray. Unfortunately we need his tremendous floor game to stay close.

clowns jokers

here i am

He is in a funk. But he does more than shoot.

[bobheckler]

1. Bynum had a real good game. I was perplexed by the decision to have KG play him on defense a lot and have Perk on Gasol. Is that saying something about concerns about KG's mobility? Putting him on the bigger, but slower player?

2. Rondo was the best player on the floor for either team today. At least in the 2nd and 3rd quarters. I don't understand why they didn't keep putting the ball in his hands in the 4th quarter and let him keep breaking down the Lakers' defense like he had been doing all along. They went from playing great team offense to one-on-one meball. You're not going to beat KoME playing his game ESPECIALLY when they're letting Artest bang Pierce without calling fouls. It didn't matter who they put on Rondo: Fish, Brown, Farmar even Bryant. He pretty much did anything he wanted out there. The way he stole the ball on the pass from 7'0" Gasol was pretty amazing athletic stuff.

3. Tony Allen had his best game so far. I couldn't ask for more from him. He played sticky defense on Kobe, killing his shooting % and scored too. He was a very lively body out there.

4. Kobe played 46 minutes. If that's what it takes for the Lakers to beat the Celtics by one, I welcome a 7-game series in the Finals after Bryant gets beat up by 3 other teams.

5. When Daniels comes back this game will be different. Eddie handled the ball too much. Ray was working so hard on defense on Bryant his offense imploded. Having a good one-on-one defender on Bryant, who can also play point, will free Ray and/or Eddie to shoot lights out.

Hard loss. Shouldn't have lost it.

bob

[112288]

I vote reduced minutes for Ray. Unfortunately we need his tremendous floor game to stay close.

clowns jokers

here i am

He is in a funk. But he does more than shoot.

Jeb, I vote for reduced coaching minutes for Doc.

112288

[jeb]

1122

He shat the bed today. Or his guys woodent listen. But tomorrow is another one.

[112288]

1122

He shat the bed today. Or his guys woodent listen. But tomorrow is another one.

As in the play "ANNIE"

Tomorrow
Bet your bottom dollar
That tomorrow
There'll be sun!

Just thinkin' about
Tomorrow
Clears away the cobwebs,
And the sorrow
'Til there's none!

When I'm stuck with a day
That's gray,
And lonely,
I just stick out my chin
And Grin,
And Say,
Oh!

The sun'll come out
Tomorrow
So ya gotta hang on
'Til tomorrow
Come what may
Tomorrow! Tomorrow!
I love ya Tomorrow!
You're always
A day
A way!


112288

[jeb]

1122

thanks. things pretty much 360 grim right now. Bout got more worries than i can tote.

[Sam]

I think I'll just join the discussion, which is more fun than trying to analyze yet another loss. Anything I wrote would be mainly an
expansion of what I said above. But I'm sure I would have said the following:

1. The Lakers started out by capitalizing on the foul trouble that (to their credit) they got Perk and Paul into. The Celtics' interior
defense suffered, although frankly I don't believe the Celtics' offense suffered a lot because I think Tony is now a more dependable slasher than Paul is (though not a more dependable foul shooter). The Celtics consistently shot well, but the Lakers simply shot better in the early going.

2. From the outset, Ray was totally committed to slowing down Kobe, and he did a pretty good job—even playing very good defense at the end on Kobe's game-winner. But Ray didn't have enough left to move like he can without the ball and free himself via curls. Most of the shots he took were contested and hurried (including the final one). It seemed to me that, with Kobe playing Rondo loosely, that left Fisher on Ray. I couldn't figure out why Ray wouldn't be posted up more frequently in that situation.

3. There could be one school of thought that would like to see more of Tony playing some minutes with the starters in place of Ray, which (on the face of it) could make some sense because the bench does really well when playing with Ray; and Rondo and Tony could be explosive. However, I'm afraid the spacing of the starters would suffer because Paul would be their only real perimeter threat, and he's too all over the place to be a legitimate floor spacer.

4. In terms of Ray's minutes, they should be reduced when Daniels returns, so that could potentially make a real difference in revitalizing his offensive game.

5. The bench did a great job of coming back. Rondo was playing with them for at least some of that time, which made a huge difference.
Whether or not they acquire a backup point guard, I won't be surprised to see Rondo playing 38-40 minutes a game in every playoff game. Barring injury, he's young enough to do it. Older guys have done it successfully, including Cousy in a faster game. (From age 25-30, he averaged 42.4 playoff minutes.)

6. Dboss, I understand that that Celtics have been habitated to going iso with Paul toward the end of games. That's why their assist totals tend to diminish in the last quarter. But I do not understand why it regularly takes them as many as 12-15 seconds to get into whatever offense they're going to run. The closer the shot is to running out, the more predictable the offense becomes, the more obvious the go-to guy is, and the easier it is for the opponent to defend the eventual shot (which, in all too-many cases, will be in desperation and/or highly contested and/or off-balance). Moreover, it completely eradicates opportunities for the Celtics to go to second or third options, which are often their bread-and-butter. I don't get it. I don't get it. I don't get it.

Sam

[Berlin-T]

Hello Sam and gentlemen of the board,

great to be back. Unfortunately due to the time difference between the U.S. and Berlin and due to old age (in three weeks I hit 70) I haven't been able to watch many games this year. However I did watch yesterday's game against the Lakers. It was a disappointing and unnecessary loss. However I did see a lot of improvement. KG is not 100% and Daniels is still injured so I haven't given up hope for the season just yet. The idea of Tony Allen starting is intriguing. Before his terrible injury I remember watching him play some amazing basketball as a starter in that horrible season when they lost, what was it 18 or 24 games in a row? He was always more effective starting than coming off the bench. Finally I agree with Sam's last post (along with many other posters). What is Doc doing at the end of games? Why, oh why go away from what's working so well. Is he a masochist? I don't get it either.
Wishing you guys all the best,

Berlin-T

[steve3344]

More turnovers than field goals in the fourth quarter. Geez.

[gyso]

Hello Sam and gentlemen of the board,

great to be back. Unfortunately due to the time difference between the U.S. and Berlin and due to old age (in three weeks I hit 70) I haven't been able to watch many games this year. However I did watch yesterday's game against the Lakers. It was a disappointing and unnecessary loss. However I did see a lot of improvement. KG is not 100% and Daniels is still injured so I haven't given up hope for the season just yet. The idea of Tony Allen starting is intriguing. Before his terrible injury I remember watching him play some amazing basketball as a starter in that horrible season when they lost, what was it 18 or 24 games in a row? He was always more effective starting than coming off the bench. Finally I agree with Sam's last post (along with many other posters). What is Doc doing at the end of games? Why, oh why go away from what's working so well. Is he a masochist? I don't get it either.
Wishing you guys all the best,

Berlin-T

Great to hear from you Berlin. I have been wondering where you have gotten to. You always were a welcomed member of the Game On! thread at the old place.

Welcome to the board!!

gyso

[Sam]

Hi there, Berlin. What a pleasure to hear from you. Here's hoping you'll continue to be able to post with us. Am I crazy, or weren't you the one who started the whole cheesecake thing, along with Bobc? We definitely need more of the continental input. I hope you're doing well.

Sam

[mrkleen09]

Another tough game.

Dont know HOW you can possibly make that call against Paul Pierce - but hey, nothing the NBA refs do surprises me.

Next.

[Sam]

In a perverse sort of way, I'm almost glad that call was made. Maybe it will make the Celtics (and, I hate to say, Doc in particular) wake up to the fact that they can't depend on bailout possibilities. They need to play to win; and, in the last five minutes of the Lakers game, they definitely played not to lose.

I couldn't believe that, in this morning's Boston Globe, I read this quote by Doc: “With five minute left we went into the stall mode offensively,’’ said Rivers. “We walked the ball up the floor, took forever to run stuff. That’s just not who we are.’’

That didn't just occur with 30 seconds left, Doc. It was going on for nearly half of the last quarter. Through a resulting series of turnovers and desperation heaves that lent a perfect contrast to the push-it-up game that had once put the Celtics in the catbird seat in this one.

I'm sure that, if Spike searches enough through that vast Auerbachian quote machine he seems to have at his disposal, he'll find some quote that's the equivalent of: "I told them to go back to ramming the ball down the b--tards' throats or they'd be digging pine out of their butts for the rest of their careers." That's precisely what should have happened toward the end of this one.

In general, I think Doc has good instincts in allowing his veterans to seek their best level of play. For the most part. But, in the first place, Rondo does not qualify as the type of veteran on whom that tactic works well; he's still going through a maturation process; and he's the one controlling the ball. In the second place, even KG commented after the game that they kept walking the ball up too much in crunch time. Well, KG's one of the veterans whom Doc tends to leave to his own devices; and one of those devices has usually been to "mentor" some of the younger guys in no uncertain terms. KG certainly didn't administer the antitode this time; and that's when he needed the services of a certain surrogate Doctor named Rivers.

At one point, with about two minutes to go, I experienced one of the most frustrating moments of my 61 years as a full-fledged Celtics fan. The Lakers had just scored (again). The crowd was going crazy. And suddenly, it was a Celtic Moment. Time for the trumpets to blare; white horses to be trotted out for the Celtics on the floor; each player to grab a banner and drape himself in it; and all five guys to summon their initiative and pound down the floor, screaming like kamikazes.

So Rondo slowly walked up the floor yet again and stood there doing some parquet pounding—while the Lakers defenders licked their chops and took a little rest, as time flew off the clock and the Celtics' offensive options dwindled.

Suddenly all of the improbable events I had witnessed in Celtics history flashed through my head in an instant. And I wished, in that moment, for one more. The simple timely presence of an insect. Oh how I wished a big bee would sting Rondo in the ass and galvanize him (and by association his teammates) into action.

But it didn't happen. I think that turned out to be the possession on which Rondo traveled; and, instead of seeing bees emerging from hives, I started breaking out in them.

I simply rolled my eyes to the heavens. Sometimes, when I do that during Celtics games, I think I see wisps of cigar smoke. At that moment, the sky just turned black.

Sam

[NYCelt]

Berlin,

Welcome back!

I hope we get to see a lot more of you.

Regards

[sinus007]

Hi,
Yes, it was a great game to watch.
Now a few observations.
KG is very far from 100%. There was a play where he allowed Bynum or Gasol to go to the hoop and it was very uncharacteristic for KG. Then they replayed that play from another angle and you could clearly see how he changed his landing foot in midair. Also, he was kind of quiet on the O. Though his midrange shooting is still very potent weapon.
I agree with Sam, RA was very good guarding Kobe. Did everything he could. I don't know if TA did better in that department.
Defense was very good in the last 3 quarters.
Rondo was great. Even the tactics of putting Kobe on him didn't work. I believe it was one of the main components of the comeback and leading in the 3rd and 4th. In that regard I agree with the prev. posters puzzled by RR's absence at the very end of the game.
Speaking of the last play. Why not to do something unexpected, e.g. give ball to KG to shoot?
One more positive point, Celtics were on the floor all 48 min fighting with all they had.

AK

[Sam]

Sinus,

Sometimes, particularly when a team is in a bit of disarray, there's an implicit "default" to whatever strategy is preferred by the most dominant personality on the court.

With all due deference to KG, I believe that person among the starters is still Paul Pierce. He's been the designated "go to" guy for so long it defies belief. And we all know that his favored tactic is to stand and pound the ball while sizing up the offense and determining which iso move he's going to. It was clear to me that that imprint was on the Celtics in the last few minutes of the Lakers game, as the Celtics "attack" slowed to a crawl.

With the bench, who's the most dominant personality? Sheed. So, when the bench appears in trouble, the default very often becomes a barrage of three-point attempts, whether by Sheed or Eddie.

The fact is that neither the "iso finish" of the starters not the "three-point shuffle" of the bench should become anything remotely approaching a consistent method of operation. For my money, the main problem in both cases is predictability. Knowing what's coming makes it easier for opponents to defend, and the Celtics don't possess "hero ballers" like Kobe and Lebron to defy the odds with remarkable consistency in the clutch.

No one will ever convince me that the Celtics shouldn't be using their talent versatility to display a greater diversity of options—not only down the stretch but also throughout the game. Remember that Rondo alley-opp shot at the buzzer? It completely caught the opponent off-guard. It wasn't predictable. What a concept!

I recognize (and have posted until I'm blue in the fact) that the prolonged period of discontinuity endured by the Celtics has had them operating from a position of weakness. In such times, it's understandable that they would resort, more than usual, to the closest things they have to "tried and true" options.

But now, as the assets are approaching full strength, it's appropriate to spend some time "reconnecting" and then to transition into a more imaginative and less predictable arsenal of strategies. That, I believe, will be the offensive key to another championship. The key to team defense, in my mind, will always be faster recognition and responsiveness, along with staying in front of guys.

Sam

[mrkleen09]

I couldn't believe that, in this morning's Boston Globe, I read this quote by Doc: “With five minute left we went into the stall mode offensively,’’ said Rivers. “We walked the ball up the floor, took forever to run stuff. That’s just not who we are.’’

That didn't just occur with 30 seconds left, Doc. It was going on for nearly half of the last quarter.

Sam - I am confused.

Doc didn't say anything about with 30 seconds left. Isn't the "with 5 minutes left" he spoke about equal the same "half of the last quarter" that you mentioned? Where does 30 seconds come into play?

I for one and glad to see Doc FINALLY acknowledging that the team needs to stop slowing down the game down the stretch. Lets see if he changes anything, or just talks about it.

[bigpygme]

i am glad to see folks throwing the ball in Doc's direction for some of this /these problems. his strategizing and substitution patterns do not seem astute, or smart and responsive to what's going on on the floor. he is a curious coach at this point. under his tutelage the C's have lost a 4th guarter lead in 11 of their last 14 games, i think it is. so his strategy, player selection and play-calling in the 4th quarter ought to be open to question and discussion, and i'm glad it's been a topic on this board.

PP as de facto PG and Iso-Man late in the 4th seems to take everyone else out of the game. among others, it sure takes rondo out of his, just at a time when you'd think you'd want the dishing dervish driving and scooping a shot or shoveling a pass. why on earth would you choose that poiint in time to take the ball out of the hands of one of the most dynamic, game-changing PG's in the NBA ? i know there's history with Paul, but as the coach's call it is still a mystery to me ...

Michael in summy Denver (as you know)

[Sam]

Mr.kleen,

I meant that it wasn't just something that happened fleetingly at the end of the game. I meant there was plenty of time, down the stretch, to address the problem.

Sam

[Sam]

The Celtics finally played a consistent game on offense, scoring 24, 24, 26 and 25 in the four periods. They were less consistent on defense, allowing 31 in the second quarter but only 10 in the fourth. The latter goes into my “glimmer” thread, especially because a lot of
the great defense in that quarter was played by bench players—especially Tony (three stars behind that one), Sheed and Glen Davis.

After the Celtics got out to a good start, the starters began letting Washington back into the game; and the bench fared no better in
the second quarter. But that consistent offense (the Celtics shot better than 50% in both halves) refused to let the game get away, and the Celts trailed by one point at halftime.

In truth, the first half was rather sleepy, and perhaps the most noteworthy occurrence was a negative one—an injury on which Paul Pierce
wound up on the floor with his legs tangle with an opponent. The word was that he sustained a foot injury (it looked like the instep).
He came back to play a few minutes but was out of action. for most of the second half.

Enter Tony Allen once again! He scored only 10 points, but he is proving to be the answer to the prayers of those who are concerned about lack of energy on this squad. He was everywhere on defense. He missed a layup or two but was also their best penetrator and finished off one beautiful fast break that started with his own steal. MVP of the contest, hands down, despite another quasi-routine double
double (17 points, 12 assists) by Rondo. Tony also snagged six rebounds, including two offensive, and was credited with three assists. This
guy has built up our hopes again and again. But, IF (a HUGE “if”) he could maintain this type of play, he would be a significant building block for the future. He did have one turnover in his 28 minutes—absolutely a pittance given his frenetic play, but Rondo had six
turnovers in 36 minutes. The turnovers are less egregious when they’re the product of super aggressive play.

I don’t know what kind of rotational gyrations will be required to accomplish this, but I feel Rondo and Tony just have to be given significant minutes together in every game as long as this trend continues. It’s true “Jones Boy” stuff. And I’m hoping Daniels will join them more often than not.

KG played a solid, if unspectacular game, with 19 points and six rebounds in 31 minutes and hit a couple of big jumpers while the score was
see-sawing in the fourth quarter. Sheed played what I thought was one of his steadiest games in 22 minutes. Significantly, he tried
only one threebie. (The entire team was 3 for 8 from the arc—more than enough three-point input for my taste.) Sheed played down low on
offense most of the time, was 4 for 7 from the floor, and hit all six of his freebies. He was also a stalwart on defense, playing much of the fourth quarter while giving Perk a rest.

At one point, Ray was 2-7 from the field, but he finished 6-13 with two three-pointers on his way to 17 points. He’s got a lot going on in his basketball life right now (and probably in his personal life too with the latest round of trade rumors floating around). If there’s an
interesting side plot to every Celtics game, it might be titled “Ray Allen–the Ultimate Profesional.”

Hey, this was the Wiz. They’re not a good team, but they’re the kind of mediocre collection of scorers that has been surprising the Celtics all too often. And there was every reason for the Celts to have a letdown in Washington on a back-to-back, with their captain injured, and after the three previous drainers. They could easily have let this one slide away, but they finished strongly for a change. Yet another glimmer in my book.

Nice win, guys.

Sam

[bobc33]

Sam, I think Tony playing both well and consistent, plus Daniels getting back to good form and fitting in, can give Paul and Ray a few less minutes per game and have more gas in the tank come May and June.

We need pieces to come together, we;ll see if they can but I believe they are finishing up doldrum month and will pick it up after the all star break.

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