Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

[Sam]

Jeb,

It won't bother me because I don't get very low if they lose or very high if they win. I'm simply not a person who dwells much on losses because I'm far more interested in how things can get better. I believe in following the players' leads, and that's generally the way they do things.

It just sometimes gets tedious to watch games for which one already knows the outcome. But focusing on analysis will help.

Take care,

Sam

[jeb]

Sam

It aint really bumming me out either oddly enough. I think I am making pretty good personal progress with that. But it does trouble me to see a lack of effort.

[spike]

I was fortunate enough to score tickets for the game. They were second row balcony and I kept looking down to see who it would land on when I puked. There were three choruses of boos, those were sickening, too.

Just a few observations: without Paul's iso game, and with the sudden presence of Nate, the team has no offensive identity. KG seems to be giving up the low post playmaker aspect of his game. Rondo seems to be capable of taking over for stretches and Doc has to help him figure out why there are stretches where he disappears, or,maybe he simply needs to learn to pick his spots better. Perk is trying too hard, overreaching, and needs to get back to what he practiced in the offseason. Rondo and Perk are still trying to stake their claims to a roll in the offense.

Paul's absence leaves a huge hole, not just in the lack of an iso game but as regards the strength-of-will part of the game. There've been glimmers of Paul's eye of the tiger and there were hopes of seeing more as the season progressed. It's overly clear how much they depend upon Paul. For all KG's histrionics, if you were wondering who is the heart of this team, you saw the answer today.

[steve3344]

Sam, Jeb, Bob and Bob-

I saw the score a minute ago and thought it was a mis-print.

I can't believe this is the same team that played an inspired game and shut the Lakers down for the last 7 min of the game 10 days ago, then crushed PDX in their own gym the next night.

What in the world is going on back in Boston ? They get home and barely beat the Knicks, have the Cavs run them out of the gym in the 2nd half, and now lose to the NEts ?

IT doesn't make any sense. I know Pierce is out, but weird things that jump out to me from looking at the box scores like Rondo taking the most shots (and a bunch of 3 pointers) vs the Cavs, then KG being the leading scorer vs the Nets , as well as giving up 100 points in both games, make me wonder if there is a bigger dysfunction going on under the surface.

Are they not executing any kind of game plan any more ? Are they more free-lancing and tuning Doc out to some extent ?

I thought they had kicked in their second half run with the West Coast trip, and were going to be rolling for the rest of the year.

I don't know what to think now, except that something really strange is going on.

As I like all of you guys, I hope they figure it out.

"like Rondo taking the most shots (and a bunch of 3 pointers) vs the Cavs"

Rondo took ONE three pointer vs the Cavs.

[jeb]

Yeah it feels like transition shit to me. Whose offense is it? I suspect Rondo is getting pretty frustrated.

There are times when he just imposes his will on games. Not many guys can do that. Just completely take over.

Their body language was terrible today and their eyes downcast.

[cowens/oldschool]

I was fortunate enough to score tickets for the game. They were second row balcony and I kept looking down to see who it would land on when I puked. There were three choruses of boos, those were sickening, too.

Just a few observations: without Paul's iso game, and with the sudden presence of Nate, the team has no offensive identity. KG seems to be giving up the low post playmaker aspect of his game. Rondo seems to be capable of taking over for stretches and Doc has to help him figure out why there are stretches where he disappears, or,maybe he simply needs to learn to pick his spots better. Perk is trying too hard, overreaching, and needs to get back to what he practiced in the offseason. Rondo and Perk are still trying to stake their claims to a roll in the offense.

Paul's absence leaves a huge hole, not just in the lack of an iso game but as regards the strength-of-will part of the game. There've been glimmers of Paul's eye of the tiger and there were hopes of seeing more as the season progressed. It's overly clear how much they depend upon Paul. For all KG's histrionics, if you were wondering who is the heart of this team, you saw the answer today.

great post for those that constantly criticize Pierces game,the team obviously needs him and his warts

[spike]

The Nets' offense was mostly to go inside to Lopez. When he was doubled or cut off, he passed out, where Lee and Harris either took jump shots or worked it around and back inside again.

This revered old lowpost halfcourt game has been a staple of the Celtics since Russell. There are some great pages in Red and Me where Russ describes how he and Red worked out this role to take best advantage of Russ' passing skills. Cowens inherited it and Chief could play it well enough, too. KG gave the team enough of a lowpost game to win one title, but he seems to be working the high post these days.

It's too bad Stonehands Perkins can't handle the ball better because he has excellent court vision. At the least, he should be working on it in practice and the offseason.

Without a dependable lowpost game, without a weave or any halfcourt movement besides Ray, they have trouble developing steady reliable shot opportunities in the halfcourt? Rondo's still feeling his way into that playmaker role. Without a full-time quarterback, they don't have anybody to make sure everyone gets his shots.

Where's the system? They all looked lost out there.

[jeb]

Cow

It aint just Pierce that gets blamed. We've all heard people put down KG, Davis, Ray most of all and in my mind he has been our best most consistent player.

I don't think there are any easy answers to this. I think some bad habits have gotten formed and somebody is goin to have to go in there with a chisel and knock all that negative stone out of there.

Preferably each individual player. There are thousands of decisions made during a nba game and your not going to get them all right. But you can damn sure work towards getting more right.

[Sam]

For the second consecutive game, I waded through the tape (another four hours), running all sorts of replays (as many as 10 in one
situation). Wow, when one knows the negative outcome in advance, watching a taped rerun can be really tedious, and I had to rewatch several pieces of footage because I nodded off.

I was, once again, interested in WHAT WENT WRONG, and I felt the first quarter really set the pattern for the game. In the first quarter, I even went to extent of devising a scoring system involving only negatives—giving each player a negative mark whenever he committed an error that led to sometime bad happening or failure to capitalize on an opportunity. The players with most of the minutes in that quarter were Nate (subbing for a foul-plagued Rondo), Quis, KG, Perk, and Ray. Also getting some time were Rondo, Perk,
Sheed Davis and Tony.

For the record, here's a record of the "negative marks" I assigned:

6 Nate (four on offense, two on defense)
...Alternately shot far too soon in the shot clock (without a pass to anyone else) and took as much as 12 seconds off the shot clock, while pounding the ball, before making the first entry pass; failed to stay in front of him man once; played too far off his perimeter assignment

5 Perk (one on offense, four on defense)
...Outquicked repeatedly by Lopez; tried on one occasion to defend beyond perimeter which led to easy pick-and-roll; committed two fouls within the first two minutes; failed to rotate on one play, leading to an easy basket

3 Sheed (all on defense)
...Failed to rotate on one play; failed to stay in front of his man; outrun by Lopez, leading to mismatches and a score

2 Rondo (one on offense, one on defense)
...Tired to pas through a Met, leading to turnover and bad retaliatory clear path foul

2 Ray (one on offense, one on defense)
...Bad pass; Failed to rotate

1 KG (defense)
...Didn't recover after jumping out to perimeter

1 Quis (offense)
...Traveling violation

Some of these were more egregious than others. For instance, in light of all the damage Quis did, who could begrudge him a traveling violation? But Perk looked particularly sluggish out there, and I think I heard he had flu symptoms. The fact is that the two guys who play center for the Celts are plodders who can do many very good things but can be outquicked by a guy like Lopez. (Note that almost all of Perk's and Sheed's "bad marks" came on defense.) For those people who have been jonesing to see Sheldon Williams, I’d consider occasionally subbing him for Perk, rather than for KG, against more agile centers.

As the first quarter wore on, I had some difficulty focusing on individuals because I became increasingly preoccupied by the team-wide standaround tendency. When that was combined with failure to move the ball, the Nets' defense gained momentum by simply playing their positions and capitalizing on Celtics mistakes. The Celts really missed the ball-sharing mentality of Rondo when he exited fairly quickly with two fouls.

This is not a form of Nate-bashing because I'm very encouraged by his offensive assertiveness, and he does possess the ability to distribute the ball once he learns more about his teammates and becomes more comfortable in the system. Moreover, he’s more
tenacious on defense than I had imagined.

But, against any major league team, it's not easy to compete with your main go-to guy out of action, your center seemingly under the weather and saddled in the first two minutes with two fouls, your point guard also on the bench early with two fouls, many minutes for a substitute PG who has no clue about the system, and a bench decimated by the need for so many people to fill in for injured or foul-plagued starters. And the presence of an agile center who represents the greatest challenge for your two centers under the best of
circumstances doesn't help either.

Yes, there was a lack of energy displayed throughout most of the game. I feel that, despite his 13 points and 17 assists, Rondo was not always the catalyst he can be. He has developed the habit of trying to thread a lot of low-percentage passes through
traffic, resulting in a lot of turnovers.

Of course, that failing can be shared with the statues that masqueraded for many of his teammates yesterday. But I do fault Rondo (and Nate) for not pushing the ball more often; it seems I’ll always be destined to have that complaint. The lack of a consistent
push causes particular problems for Perk and Sheed because, by the time they receive the ball down low, the defense is usually poised to collapse on them.

But I do feel that a portion of that lack of energy was the function of people playing in unfamiliar roles. For example, Sheed is conditioned to playing 23.5 minutes a game; and he played 29 in this one—against arguably the most active center in the league. By the seven-minute mark of the second quarter, Sheed had played 12 consecutive minutes—many of them spent trying to slow down Lopez. He was having difficulty raising his arms, to say nothing of moving his legs. Nets were going around him at will, without his even having raised his hands. Toward the end of his initial stint, he did a Rondo-type poke check from behind, and the ball squirted free to a
teammate, who began a break. The Celtics held the ball for 14 seconds before taking a short, and Sheed never made it over half court.

Ideally, against a quick guy like Lopez, you’d alternate Perk and Sheed for stretches of around six minutes to conserve their energy. That luxury wasn’t available to Doc yesterday.

So, after having watched the game in extremely detailed fashion, my strongest impressions were disappointment tempered by some
understanding of a few contributing factors. More than any other changes, the Celts need a serious upgrades in defense against the pick-and-roll and offensive motion, ball movement, and push of the ball.

Sam

[cowens/oldschool]

Sam

Great detailed post,wonder if Doc is as aware of minutes and how it affects each player,I would hope with Sheed so tired after playing consecutive minutes that he couldn't even raise his hands that he should find PT for Sheldon Williams.
Boy do we need the isos of Pierce
cow

[mrkleen09]

This will be the turning point for not only this season, but for the Celtics organization for the foreseeable future.

It will mark the day that either

a) the Celtics hit rock bottom, and because of injuries, salary issues, and other problems – and it set the organization back on a journey towards mediocrity.

b) The team picked themselves up, found their mojo, and made a run towards toward the playoffs that showed they are still viable and that their young guns are the kind of players that others around the league want to join next season and the seasons to follow.

This was low…..very low. Here’s hoping it is B and not A that is the final outcome.

[spike]

There was a 9 year old kid in the seat next to me. It was his first Celtic game and his Dad kept apologizing to him because the Nets had won only four games all year. After the game, I told them, "It's okay. This is rock bottom. They can only get better after this."

There were thousands of kids at the game. If I was Wyc, I would be royally pissed at seeing my future fan base abused by that display. There have been instances of owners chewing out teams. Way back when, Walter Brown, after one particularly bad loss, stormed into the locker room and threatened to fire the whole team.

One thing that mystifies me is how the Nets lost so many games with Lopez at center. He's much better on offense than defense, and they don't play much defense as a team, but this guy runs the floor, has a bundle of moves and looks like he can score almost any time he wants. You'd think, with Lee and Harris in supporting roles, they could have climbed on Lopez' back for a few more wins.

Next year, with a new owner, a new stadium, a number one pick and a free agent or two or three, they might be a team worth watching.

[Sam]

Have at it, guys. I'll post later. The "nutshell" tonight: Nate and mates provided the energy when it was most needed, Rondo hit his freebies, and the Celts played enough defense in the fourth quarter to get the win.

Sam

[gyso]

Rondo is in elite company.

10+ assists in 7 straight games.

Cousy, 59-60
Tiny, 81-82
Rondo 09-10

Plus he just had his 7th consequtive double-double

[cowens/oldschool]

I think were in good hands with Rondo at the point,Nate could be our Microwave Johnson as a scoring point and is young,hope he can continue his sparkplug play.At least we could have two building blocks in backcourt for longterm with Rondo and Nate,TA did okay and made some key plays and steals.
KG wasn't always effective,but battled.....could have used a hearty dose of Perk as Sheed with whoever had stretches getting killed on boards.

[Pumpsie Green]

Missed most of the game....came back home just in time to see Wallace fire up another brick from outside the arc.
Oh well, a win is a win with this team. They have a long ways to go.

[jeb]

cow

I saw more effort on the glass than i have seen in quite a while. Maddeningly we didnt get most of them but they fought.

I...like you hope to see more of Shelden. Would like to see he and davis in tandem some more.

[jeb]

minute just right tonight. good job bench.

[mrkleen09]

Missed most of the game....came back home just in time to see Wallace fire up another brick from outside the arc.
Oh well, a win is a win with this team. They have a long ways to go.

Oh the irony. Didnt see the game, but you had just enough time to stop by and leave a negative comment.

[MDCelticFan]

Good to see one go in the "W" column finally. Robinson surely was productive off the bench and someone introduced Doc to Shelden Williams. We were fortunate Detroit didn't hit a good percentage of their "3's". Our Bigs need better positioning on both offensive and defensive boards. Beat the other guy to the spot, get your butt in his gut and back him out. In real estate is's location, location, location. In rebounding it's positioning, positioning, positioning. Mempphis' young crew will be challenging for the C's tonight since we're on the 2nd night of a back 2 back.

[beat]

Missed most of the game....came back home just in time to see Wallace fire up another brick from outside the arc.
Oh well, a win is a win with this team. They have a long ways to go.

Oh the irony. Didnt see the game, but you had just enough time to stop by and leave a negative comment.

Funny how that works sometimes, heck I was switching back and forth from the SU game to the C's lots and every time I swithched Baby was laying bricks with that "baby" hook in the lane too, musta seen all his misses! Matter fact i never actuall saw the Celtics score at all!!

Negative glimmer thread

beat

[beat]

Hey MD

Mempphis' young crew will be challenging for the C's tonight since we're on the 2nd night of a back 2 back.

I thought we were playing the bobcats?

beat

[swedeinestonia]

It is the Bobcats but they are a good team too.

Although not so good on the road (I probably jinxed it now.)

[cowens/oldschool]

Good to see one go in the "W" column finally. Robinson surely was productive off the bench and someone introduced Doc to Shelden Williams. We were fortunate Detroit didn't hit a good percentage of their "3's". Our Bigs need better positioning on both offensive and defensive boards. Beat the other guy to the spot, get your butt in his gut and back him out. In real estate is's location, location, location. In rebounding it's positioning, positioning, positioning. Mempphis' young crew will be challenging for the C's tonight since we're on the 2nd night of a back 2 back.

when your older takes more time to gather yourself,when your young with young legs can just react.....same thing happened to Jabbar and Cowens,now its happening to KG and Sheed

[Sam]

The Celts once again played without their full nucleus being available—the 28th time in the 30 games since Christmas that has occurred. This time, the "Discontinuity Express" added Pierce and subtracted Perk. Sheed started in Perk's place. But, for perhaps the second, third or fourth time since Xmas, they had the advantage of a good practice with the configuration that would be playing the upcoming game.

Given this luxury, it's not surprising that the Celtics came out of the starting gate clicking on offense (Rondo had five assists in the first quarter) and making most of their shots during the first few minutes. The only problem was that the Pistons quickly displayed what would be their offensive strategy for the evening—taking it to the hole. And they did it successfully, time after time either scoring or getting fouled.

As Doc says, you can't depend on your offense to bail out a porous defense consistently because sooner or later your offense will cool off. And it did around the 7 minute mark, as the Celts began settling for jumpers and began missing so many shots that they field goal percentage at the end of the first was only 38%. At the 7:05 mark, the Pistons went out to their first lead.

The game stayed fairly even for a while, as the two teams alternated demonstrations of ineptitude. The Pistons tried the inside-out game and missed five three-point attempts in the quarter, and their ballhandling was ragged (5 turnovers for the quarter). Rondo was also somewhat out of control with the ball (two turnovers in the quarter).

Although Paul Pierce seemed to have some difficulty moving all night long, he now sank a timely three-pointer; and Glen Davis replaced Sheed and became very active on the offensive boards while scoring four points. Rondo also sank three of four free throw attempts, setting a precedent that would serve the Celtics well later in the game. And Sheed and KG each had three boards in the opening stanza, which ended in a 25-25 tie.

Enter the bench in force. Nate Robinson started the second quarter and hit his first jumper, also setting the stage for more to come. Sheldon Williams also entered the game to form a tandem with Davis up front. Sherwin very appropriately hit a nice turnaround jumper in the paint. (Get it?) Tony had made his presence felt with a nice putback at the end of the first quarter, and he now contributed a nice driving three-point play.

On the negative side of the ledger, the Pistons relentlessly kept penetrating. Sheldon looked a little lost on defense,not rotating well; and none of the Celts was boxing out on the defensive boards. Glen forced up a couple of baby hooks that missed. Just when the Pistons had fashioned a 34-32 lead, Nate tossed in a long three-pointer.

About halfway through the quarter, the starters returned. Pierce was a bit of a trick-or-treater, scoring six in the quarter but regularly getting beaten on the defensive end. The Celtics starter's offense consisted almost entirely of free lance basketball. I couldn't identify any sets being run in their halfcourt game.

Detroit contributed mightily to the Celtics' cause by doubling their first quarter output with five more turnovers and 0-5 three-point shooting in the quarter. But the Celtics were really struggling to keep pace with the Pistons until Rondo started going to the hoop late in the quarter to fuel a 10-2 run that left the Celtics in front 55-52 at the half. (One positive sign to watch for in Celtics basketball is when they're scoring points in bunches. That's the kind of team they need to be.)

Iin the third quarter, the Celtics' defense tightened somewhat. (Detroit apparently doesn't believe in setting high picks, which have been a major Achilles' heel for Boston in recent games.) The Celts forced a few more Pistons turnovers and built a 64-56 lead.

But Detroit came back and trailed by only three after a Prince three-pointer. Detroit had a lot of open shots from the perimeter, and Celts were fortunate that more of them didn't fall.

In came the bench again, and they soon submitted my favorite play of the game. In their halfcourt set, all five bench players were in motion simultaneously. I couldn't believe it, and I actually rubbed my eyes! Fortunately, I stopped rubbing just as Glen Davis received a pass for an easy layup. Be still my heart!

The Pistons now went into a zone defense, which always seems to bother the Celtics. The game went back and forth for a while, as Glen Davis missed a couple of bunnies in the process. Finally the Pistons used a couple of successful down picks to forge a 75-72 lead at the three-quarter mark.

A unit of Nate, Tony, Quis, Williams and Davis had finished the third quarter, and Doc gave them some run in the fourth, with great results! Nate went for a three-pointer. Glen followed with a freebie, a layup and a long jumper. Tony made a fine inside pass to Sheldon for two. And suddenly the Celtics had another 10-2 run. Nate skied for a great offensive board on which he was fouled. Nate hit a three, and it was now 86-79 Celts after a 13-2 run. (Love those runs!)

The Pistons chipped away, but Nate hit another three. 89-81. Davis took a charge. Some of the starters returned, but Quis and Nate stayed out there, leaving Pierce and Rondo on the bench.

Sheed hit a three. Ray, in trouble on the left side with time running down on the shot clock, nailed a turnaround.

Detroit kept coming back, but their efforts were somewhat subverted by some lousy Ben Wallace free throw shooting. Hamilton and Prince kept hitting, though.

Finally, two free throws by Ray put the Celtics up 97-90, but Prince immediately narrowed the margin with a three. Ray dribbled the ball out of bounds under pressure. KG made two free throws, and it was 99-93. Jerebko (who's a really good young player) laid one in, and Rondo was fouled. He made both. (Love it.) 101-95. Stuckey came back with a jumper (he's got a decent game, but I like his hamburgers better). In the last 16.5 seconds, Ray made a couple at the line; Prince answered with a three; Rondo made two more at the line (7 for 8 for the game), and the Celts were 105-100 winners.

Definitely not an artistic gem, but a win. I really liked the play of the bench. (They were +3 for the night and the starters were +2.) I think that small lineup of Nate, Tony, Daniels, Williams and Davis is something to keep our eyes on. It works as long as Nate is hitting from outside, opening the floor for Quis and Tony to penetrate and Davis and Williams to do some dirty work down low.

The game ball goes to Nate Robinson. And I liked the fact that, in his post-game interview, he wanted to talk about how he was gradually picking up the defense. The guy can be a real sparkplug for either unit. And Doc's obviously giving some thought to mixing and matching the two units when it's appropriate. That's precisely what I had hoped the versatility on this squad would facilitate...use guys in different roles for different purposes and matchups.

KG had 14 and 9. Marquis played one of the best games I've seen by a guy who had only two points. Sheed had six boards to go along with his 10 points. Ray was the team's high scorer with 18. (Both he and Sheed were 2-5 from three point land.) Rondo had 15 points and 11 assists. Glen Davis chipped in with 12 timely points. Sheldon's defense picked up somewhat as the game progressed, and he contributed six points. Tony scored 5 points with 3 boards in 13 minutes and played his usual good defense. But the game ball goes to Nate for his energy (at both ends) and his out-of-sight 4-5 three-point shooting. He had 14 points in 15 minutes. He may not yet be the microwave, but he's not the easy bake oven either.

Speaking of minutes, no starter played more than Ray's 34 minutes. Kudos to Doc, because that should help them tonight against the Bobcats.

After the game, Doc said they ran just one play in the fourth quarter. A Knicks play designed to free Nate. He called it something like "a motion set." Well, the word "motion" sent me into spasms of joy. I can only hope that "motion" becomes a much more pervasive element in the offensive games of both the starters and the bench.

As for glimmers from this one, I'm happy with:

• the emergence of Sheldon as a productive playing partner for Glen Davis in a dynamic small combination.

• the versatility now available to Doc in meeting the challenges of various situations and matchups.

• the adrenalin infusion of which Nate is capable.

• Doc's recognition of the fact that "a movement set" can be really productive.

Sam

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