Interesting comments about Bill Russell and Dwight Howard

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2010-04-03/sports/os-bianchi-column-0404-20100403_1_guokas-style-dwight-howard-bill-russell

Who cares ?

Howard may be bigger. stronger, (questionable on more atheletic) but no way he's on the same planet with Court smarts as Russell was.

He's about the only one who thinks that way.


TJ Just wonder the motivation for putting this on here, cause there isn't a soul on this board that would even remotely agree with Matty.

beat

beat,

Where in the article did Goukas say that Howard is a smarter player then Russell? He was talking about their physical differences.

I didn't make any personal comments about Goukas statement. I think they are noteworthy comments from a guy that played in the NBA for 10 years and has coached for another 20+ years.

His comments made national news so I'm sorry you don't feel they were relevant enough to post on this board.

Why would a LAKER fan put this on a Celtic board?

makes me wonder.

And TJ

Did I say Goukas said Russell was smarter? NO I did not. That was ME.

Quit reading stuff into my post.

beat

beat wrote:Why would a LAKER fan put this on a Celtic board?

makes me wonder.

And TJ

Did I say Goukas said Russell was smarter? NO I did not. That was ME.

Quit reading stuff into my post.

beat

Would you be happier if it was a Bobcats fan that posted this?
Goukas never doubted Russell's intelligence so why bring it up?
It is relevant because it is about Bill Russell.

gyso wrote:tj,

You made no personal comments, yet now you say that this article is noteworthy?

Please share your thoughts about what makes this noteworthy. Do you believe this, don't believe this, or what?

gyso

A national, 'controversial' story is noteworthy especially when it comes from somebody that has been around the NBA for 35 years and played on the same court as Russell did.
I cannot comment on what Goukas said because I never saw Russell play.
The 20 second highlight clips that are available showing Russell aren't enough for me to voice an opinion.

gyso wrote:tj,

This article was written by Mike Bianchi, a blogger at OrlandoSentinel.com/openmike and a radio show host, not someone "that has been around the NBA for 35 years and played on the same court as Russell did." You are really reaching there. Goukas was quoted and otherwise referenced throughout the article, but Mike chose what was quoted and how it was referenced.

I repeat, Mike is a AM radio show host. Can you say "Homer"?

I have seen no national mention of this. It sounds like a local tempest in a teapot that you brought here for our "enjoyment".

gyso

I never said Goukas wrote the article...
It wasn't a comment that was maybe taken out of context. He went back wanted Goukas to clarify his remarks.

I heard it on ESPN Radio this morning, so don't you think that makes it a national story?
I had never heard of the writer or his AM radio show.

Matt Guokas, Magic color commentator, is entitled to his opinion, just as Tommy Heinsohn, Celtics color commentator, has a right to his.

The author points out that Guokas played against Russell. Yes, he showed up in the last 3 years of Russell's career, 2 of which were as a championship player-coach. Sam himself has pointed out many times that by 1969, the Celtics dynasty team led by Russell were old and worn down and were fueled by pride more than athleticism. That's part of what Matt Guokas, who came into the league in 66-67, saw. Tommy, on the other hand, played with Russell for 9 years, while he was in his prime. In fact, they came into the league together, with Tommy winning 8 championships as a player. Tommy went on to be a championship coach as well, winning two titles. Matt Guokas? He won 1 ring, courtesy of Wilt and Billy C, and none as a coach. Who do you think knows defensive players better? Someone who played with the best (or second best, if you ask Guokas) and against Wilt, Mikan and other great players for 9 years and coached 2 championship teams himself or someone who previously coached (and won nothing) and now does broadcasting for the team whose player he says is the best? Tommy's coaching record, btw, is 427-263 with two championships. His teams were rebuilt after Russell, Sam, KC and the rest of the dynasty retired. Guokas' coaching record? 230-305. My point? If it takes one to know one, then my money is on HOF player and coach Tommy knowing good defensive players before I'll bet on coach Guokas.

Has anybody else agreed with Guokas? I suspect Guokas's going to be pretty lonely on this one.

I don't have a problem with TJ posting this article which quotes Guokas. It's just one person's opinion and opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one. I also don't blame him for waiting before posting his opinion of this article. As was correctly pointed out, this is a Celtics board. In fact, if I were a regular poster on Lakersnation or any other Laker board and I found a similar article by Tommy Heinsohn saying that Magic wasn't as good as he is generally considered, I might post it too, but would be slow in expressing my own view of the article so as to not make it look like I'm intentionally fanning the flames.

Bottom line: comparing players from different eras is stupid and Guokas should be smart enough to realize that. Unfortunately, he isn't. Sure helped to secure his broadcasting job in these tough times though, didn't it?


bob

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gyso,

Boy, you are trying to discredit me, the writer and ESPN radio.
Since I won't comment of Goukas statement, you can only grasp for straws through bashing everyone:

"Please share your thoughts about what makes this noteworthy. Do you believe this, don't believe this, or what?"

Is there anyone else that thinks this the story came from Goukas?
In my opinion, if a story is on ESPN or ESPN radio, it is a national story.
I am sorry you got offended so easily about the article that I referenced.

One update to my post above.

To be clear, if I did see an article by Heinsohn saying that Magic was that great, my opinion would be to disagree with Tommy. Magic was great.

bob

/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Russell

And I'm sure Howard had to face these issues too.

However, the game still ended on a high note for Russell. After the loss, he led his grandfather through the Celtics locker rooms, and the two saw white Celtics player John Havlicek taking a shower next to his black teammate Sam Jones and discussing the game. Suddenly, Russell Sr. broke down crying. Asked by his grandson what was wrong, his grandfather replied how proud he was of him, being coach of an organization in which blacks and whites coexisted in harmony.[43]

Second thoughts nowadays but not in Russells time.

beat

Goufas is obviously just sucking up to the network advertisers.

According to Goufas, Howard is "better-conditioned" and "runs faster and jumps higher." Wrong, wrong and wrong again.

Conditioning - Bill played 46 minutes most games and got stronger and tougher in the fourth quarter of close games than he was in the first quarter - how many minutes does Howard play regularly?

Speed - Bill was the fastest man in the league until Sam Jones showed up. Sam could beat Bill in a foot race from baseline to baseline, but only by a half-step. Howard is slow compared to Bill and Goukas knows it.

Jumping ability - Bill qualified for the high jump in the 1956 Olympics. He blocked Wilt's fadaway jumper. But, he realized when he was a teenager that you frequently needed to be able to jump 3, 4 or more times for a single rebound, so, from then on, he practiced continuous jumping, that means jumping high enough to touch the top of the rim twenty times in a row.

Howard's a physical specimen but he couldn't hold a candle to Bill and Goufas knows it.

tj knows he can get to Celtics' fans by insulting Bill. Very immature. He should got to bdc, he'd fit right in. Maybe he and Dudder can get together.

According to records Russell ran the 440 in under 50 seconds ON A CINDER TRACK to boot, you could easily cut that by 2 seconds on an all-weather rubberized tarten surface, and perhaps another second with todays lightweight running shoes, and not the heavy spikes worn back then. That is a quarter mile and now is equivalent to the 400 meters.
I'd love to see Howard run a 1/4 under 60 seconds let alone 50 seconds.

Also love to see Howard high jump his own height as Russell could.

When it mattered most try the 68 eastern finals. C's trailed 3-1 and with COACH Russell they came back to take it to seven and COACH Russell held the most powerful offensive basketball force of ALL-TIME to 2 lousy field goal attempts in the second half, and the C's went on to win and then take out the Lakers (who else) in 6 in the finals.

Howard could not hold Russell's jock in any way shape or form.

And Russ did all of these things in a time when the Black Athelete had a whole lot more to think about....................

Gee does the MVP of the playoffs get the Dwight Howard Trophy?

beat

TJ is just the messenger here, and let's not shoot the messenger, even though the message delivered is so patently absurd as not to be worth debating. All of you who have pointed out Russ's greatness deserve props. As does Russ.

TJ,

Yesterday's game was so tight, this was just the time for comic relief. Thanks for providing it. Goukas' objectivity is obviously beyond reproach, especially after Russ and mates came back from 3-1 down in the 1968 Eastern Finals to ship Philly's ass (two of those remaining three games being in Philly).

The really funny thing is that Goukas was probably as clueless as Wilt was (maybe more so) at what Russ was doing to the 76ers of defense. All of the subtle tricks he used to push Wilt out slightly beyond his comfort zone; allowing Wilt to score and fatten his stats when the game was well in hand. Alternately shuttling in front of and behind Wilt to present different "looks" all the time. Of course, that was just the mental part.

Physicality is the first area in which Goukas tips off his subjectivity. How can Goukas deign to compare the weights of two guys half a century apart when everyone (including Russ) knows Russ would have been in the 250-260 range if he played today.

And Howard leaps higher than an Olympic-level high jumper? (Belly laugh, belly laugh.) At this instant, I'm looking at a huge photo of Russ and Wilt in mid-air (much like a ballet). Wilt has just released his little backhand flip so his arm and fingers are at full extension. Russ is slightly bent so as to attempt the block without fouling Wilt. The fingers on Russ' blocking hand are curved like a goose neck. And those fingers are at least half a foot about Wilt's extended hand. (Snicker, snicker)

And Howard's faster than Russ? Listen, he's nowhere near as quick OR as fast. Russ could cover the entire court in about six or seven strides and proved it on the famous "Coleman Play," during which Goukas, of course, just beginning puberty. For sheer speed in the open court, I'd definitely take Russ over any other big man I've ever seen play. (And I've seen quite a few.)

The fact is, TJ, that the Sixers just plain hated the Celtics more than any team in the league because of years of frustration. Goukas came along during the only year in an 11-year span during which Russ and the Celtics lost the championship (to the Sixers). It was Russ' first year as player-coach, and he didn't have a staff of assistants to get him through the experience. Even Auerbach refused to butt in. So Russ was stretch pretty thin. Heinsohn's retirement, the year before, was the fifth in five seasons by a future hall of famer. (K.C. Jones would make it six in six after the missed championship). So what Goukas saw in Russ was an aging guy spreading himself very thin in trying to cope with constant change.

So the Sixers got cocky, expected to repeat the next year, and went up on the Celts 3-1 in the 1968 division finals. Russell and mates made history by winning the last three (two of them in Philly) in a memorable game that saw Wilt take two (2) shots in the second half. I'm sure there is no lasting enmity on Goukas' part though.

An announcer doesn't have to be a full-fledged "homer" to know that he's being paid to cultivate support for the home team. Matty has an opportunity, every night, to fall in love with Howard. He cut his NBA teeth in an environment of hatred for the Celtics. He has distorted (maybe not intentionally but through his enthusiasm for his subject) facts in his zeal to make a mountain out of a molehill.

But thanks to you and Matty for the chuckle.

Sorry if I duplicated anything said by anyone else. I'm a little late in posting because it took me quite a while to stop laughing when I read that piece.

Sam

After the next tight Celtics game I'll be starting a thread on why Matt Guokas was a better coach than Red Auerbach. They say laughter is the best medicine.

beat wrote:According to records Russell ran the 440 in under 50 seconds ON A CINDER TRACK to boot, you could easily cut that by 2 seconds on an all-weather rubberized tarten surface, and perhaps another second with todays lightweight running shoes, and not the heavy spikes worn back then. That is a quarter mile and now is equivalent to the 400 meters.
I'd love to see Howard run a 1/4 under 60 seconds let alone 50 seconds.

Also love to see Howard high jump his own height as Russell could.

When it mattered most try the 68 eastern finals. C's trailed 3-1 and with COACH Russell they came back to take it to seven and COACH Russell held the most powerful offensive basketball force of ALL-TIME to 2 lousy field goal attempts in the second half, and the C's went on to win and then take out the Lakers (who else) in 6 in the finals.

Howard could not hold Russell's jock in any way shape or form.

And Russ did all of these things in a time when the Black Athelete had a whole lot more to think about....................

Gee does the MVP of the playoffs get the Dwight Howard Trophy?

beat

beat,

The current record holder for the 440 meter run is Michael Johnson, at 43.18 seconds. Considering that running these races is all Michael Johnson trains for, that's pretty impressive for Russ.

In Dwight Howard's defense, he does a pretty good yoga position in that commercial with Barkley.

bob


/

Sam,

Thanks for the points you made. I appreciate listening to stories from people who watched the old-time athletes we talk about or debate.
You are quite welcome for the comic relief that I provided, though unintentional.

TJ

Bob

Youn are dating yourself

its the 400 meters now (was 440 yds in our day)
Damn metric system anyway.

I remember many years ago the wise officials with the State of New York (and apparently they are still there) (as well as many in upper government levels nationally) decieded we (the US) was the only country NOT to go metric and we should.................so in New York anyway they started on the NYS Thruway and began putting signs for exits in Metric example:(Auburn exit 13 2km) but hardly anyone knew what the hell they were talking about and ended missing their exits.

Only a few signs actually made it up before the calls to the State were so loud they ditched it and went back to the exit 1 mile stuff.

Wonder if the NFL Europe used a 100 meter field?

beat

One thing that I would like to say about Dwight Howard is that he doesn't come across as a smart player at all. Not that he is a dumb man, but when I watch him he doesn't seem to have a good basketball 'sense'.
He often makes the wrong play or a bad foul against a PG 25 feet from the basket when he is already in foul trouble.
Unfortunately, I feel the same about Andrew Bynum who is also extremely clumsy for an NBA player.

beat wrote:Bob

Youn are dating yourself

its the 400 meters now (was 440 yds in our day)

beat

beat,

Actually, my research is telling me the olympics always used meters, it's the AAU that uses yards. I'm having trouble finding the AAU 400 yard record back in the 1960s for comparison purposes so I threw out the olympic number.

bob

.

Dwight Howard is no where near the level of Bill Russell.

Bill is to defense & rebounding what Michael Jordan was to scoring.