Demarcus cousins : the good guy

I've been thinking more and more about him as a possible Celtic and have reached a point where I think for the right price he could be tge peice we need to push ourselves into a top 3 team in the league..

Of course then there's all the bagage, but this article put him into a bit of a different light:
http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/demarcus-cousins-police-mobile-alabama-panel-discussion-kings/rlu1d0gycdom1y2fp5doa9n9b

I thought Horford was our center now.

hard to see Al and Boogie co-existing in the same lineup.

when has Horford ever been a PF?

like him or not, Al Horford is our center for the next few years.

KDP,

My understanding is different.

Al Horford was a PF until the Hawks acquired a player who filled the PF position (Millsap or Bazemore?), so Al moved over to center.

Part of the sales pitch from Danny was that Al could move back to the PF position and not have to go up against the bigger opponents each and every game.

Anyway, those two statements are the short versions of my understanding of the Al Horford acquisition.

gyso

2007 was Horfords' first season.

Atlanta had Zaza Pachulia returning as their starting center from 2006.Pachulia became Horford's backup in 2007 and averaged about 15 min per game.
Josh Smith and Marvin Williams were the primary forwards at Atlanta in 2007.

the roster was pretty much the same thru 2011. In 2011 Horford missed most of the year and Pachulia started at Center fro most of the games.

in 2012 Williams left and Horford was back to health at center.

in 2013 Milsap was brought in to replace Josh Smith not Horford, who was still the starting center.

in fact since 2007 when Horford was drafted the Hawks have drafted only TWO centers and both were second rounder's. W. Tavares in 2014 and K. Benson in 2011.

I am not sure where the idea came from that Horford has been mostly a PF in the NBA. he has been and will be a center.

gyso wrote:KDP,

My understanding is different.  

Al Horford was a PF until the Hawks acquired a player who filled the PF position (Millsap or Bazemore?), so Al moved over to center.

Part of the sales pitch from Danny was that Al could move back to the PF position and not have to go up against the bigger opponents each and every game.

Anyway, those two statements are the short versions of my understanding of the Al Horford acquisition.

gyso

     Boogie`s a center. Horford can play either position. McHale and Parish co- existed.I don`t see why Horfordand Cousins couldn`t.

I"m having a hard time with this too. But when speaking of the Boston Celtics there are no centers or power forwards. positonless basketball is a hard nut to crack. but it is the future of this team. Bigs, Swings, Wings, ballhandlers can mesh where PFs, Centers, and guards couldn't.

Hope Cousins continues to play for any team other than the Celtics.

I remain constant in my beliefs that some players regardless of their talent level may not be a good fit for your team.  

He may be a good guy off the court and that's a nice thing for anyone but the Celtics are an unselfish team that is being built on the notion of collective work and responsibility.  As good as he is he is not a transformative player.  We have a really nice mix of players now so i see no reason to add him.

dboss

dboss,

I agree with you're thought process on this. Chemistry tends to balance talent sometimes, which for me is the most exiting to watch.

Pete

kdp59 wrote:2007 was Horfords' first season.

Atlanta had Zaza Pachulia returning as their starting center from 2006.Pachulia became Horford's backup  in 2007 and averaged about 15 min per game.
Josh Smith and Marvin Williams were the primary forwards at Atlanta in 2007.

the roster was pretty much the same thru 2011. In 2011 Horford missed most of the year and Pachulia started at Center fro most of the games.

in 2012 Williams left and Horford was back to health at center.

in 2013 Milsap was brought in to replace Josh Smith not Horford, who was still the starting center.

in fact since 2007 when Horford was drafted the Hawks have drafted only TWO centers and both were second rounder's. W. Tavares in 2014 and K. Benson in 2011.

I am not sure where the idea came from that Horford has been mostly a PF in the NBA. he has been and will be a center.

KDP,

The numbers seem to back you up.  The numbers I found for these three seasons suggest that he may have played some of his minutes at the PF position.

In 08-09, could have played up to 24% of his minutes at PF.  
Hawk centers played 4479 minutes, the center position (82x48) totals 3936, that is an extra 543 minutes.
Al played 2242 minutes in 67 games

In 09-10, he may not have played many of his minutes at PF.  
Hawk centers played 4049 minutes, the center position (82x48) totals 3936, that is an extra 113 minutes.
Al played 2845 minutes in 81 games
However, Joe Smith played 592 minutes in 64 games, some may have been at center.  It would be pure conjecture to say Al could have picked up minutes at PF there.

In 10-11, could have played up to 28% of his minutes at PF.  
Hawk centers played 4699 minutes, the center position (82x48) totals 3936, that is an extra 763 minutes.
Al played 2702 minutes in 77 games

There are a lot of guesses there and not much substance.  Even the numbers show that in the most likely years for him to play PF, it didn't even come close to 50% of his time on the court.

gyso

Regarding Horford at PF or C.

The good thing here is that regardless of where he has played, he could play either front-court spot.  If we were ever able to pick up the defender/rebounder/banger we would like to have at center, and combine him with Horford at PF, we would have an incredibly strong front-court.

The question and issue at hand is where do we get that center. There sure isn't one just jumping into the boat.

I believe that both Horford and Cousins would 1000% thrive together on the court.

It would not matter what label ("Center" or "Power Forward") you might want to place on them. Actually, the labels would only be determined by the match ups at any given time.

Both are max contract guys, but certainly have the talent to make the Cs much better. Starting Horford and Cousins over Johnson and Sullinger is like adding TEN (or maybe TWELVE) wins to last year's total and a legit threat at dethroning the Cavs much sooner than having only Horford this season.

Cousins is one of the very few players that I could be happy with Ainge trading one of the two remaining Nets picks (along with two other number one's, a couple of two's and even one core player -Bradley?- before the season starts this year.

Cousins' addition to the team would not be very conducive to the system in place. I'm primarily referring to his attitude. Obviously he has great talent, but I'd rather that money be spent on a two-way wing player.


KJ

The last thing this team needs is a negative ballplayer. Cousins can put up all the stats he wants, it is what is between the head sets that bothers me. His on court demeanor drives me nuts. The tech's he gets for no reason other than a temper tantrum or immaturity, his attitude, these things drive me crazy. I know there have been "troubled" players supposedly "poison" from other times who have straightened themselves out when they came to the Celtics, but they also came to a team loaded with stars who would not put up with any negative play.

Sorry, Cousins is not a guy I want on this team. I will take my chances with what we have until someone really worthwhile comes along.

kdp59 wrote:2007 was Horfords' first season.

Atlanta had Zaza Pachulia returning as their starting center from 2006.Pachulia became Horford's backup  in 2007 and averaged about 15 min per game.
Josh Smith and Marvin Williams were the primary forwards at Atlanta in 2007.

the roster was pretty much the same thru 2011. In 2011 Horford missed most of the year and Pachulia started at Center fro most of the games.

in 2012 Williams left and Horford was back to health at center.

in 2013 Milsap was brought in to replace Josh Smith not Horford, who was still the starting center.

in fact since 2007 when Horford was drafted the Hawks have drafted only TWO centers and both were second rounder's. W. Tavares in 2014 and K. Benson in 2011.

I am not sure where the idea came from that Horford has been mostly a PF in the NBA. he has been and will be a center.

It is pretty well known that Horford views himself as a PF and also well known that based on the personnel around him he has had to play center for the majority of his career. 

Here is a quote of his from 2013:

Yeah, you know I was kind of dealing with that all summer because I was under the impression that I was going to play power forward and that is my natural position. But once I saw all the moves that the team made and I talked to coach, they kind of made me understand how their system works and how they feel I can be successful at center. It’s up to me. I am embracing that and I’m going to make the most out of playing center and be the best I can be.


http://uproxx.com/dimemag/10-sense-al-horford-the-man-in-atlanta/



He is a team guy and I can see him repeating that exact same mantra when Danny and Brad say center is where he'll be a lot of the time. Yes he'll get some mins with Olynyk, who is also a PF/C, but we all know the most dangerous lineups the team as currently constructed can put out there are ones with Amir or Crowder alongside him in the frontcourt. Amir is another natural PF forced into a center role by the changing NBA and Crowder is a prototypical SF.

That being said, Horford would thrive at the 4 alongside Cousins and anyone who wouldn't want Boogie on this team needs a serious wake-up call.

The baggage is really insignificant compared to the talent at this point. He has been beaten down by a terrible franchise. Anyone who was around him in Rio had nothing but good things to say about him as a person and teammate. Kids for the most part are idiots at 19-23 years of age. Sure some are way more mature than others, but if you take an immature one and stick him in dysfunctional loserville (AKA Sacramento) you'll see some issues crop up. Other than being difficult to coach and growing pains on the court this is a man who has not committed crimes, been arrested or let anything leak regarding stuff like gang ties, an interest in marijuana use, a disinterest in basketball, etc. 

Men mature rapidly in their mid-20's. Most unbiased people who have no interest in creating drama (like his Team USA teammates) say Cousins is genuinely a good guy who just needs a change of scenery and coaches/GM's who "get him" (paging Danny and Brad). I can totally see a trade for him being a huge steal as he'd gel perfectly with Horford and give the C's a legit star that teams like Cleve and GS would have real problems defending. 

Remember, Robert Parish was an immature, underachiever in GS until the C's traded for him in 1980. He turned 27 right before the 1980-81 season. Cousins just turned 26.

one final note from me on this:

Horford may think of himself as an NBA power forward, but after a decade of playing mostly Center he is what he is.

players at 30YO don't typically move to a position where more speed and mobility is required.

With the "center" position being phased out in the current NBA in place of smaller players more mobile players. Isn't Horford the "typical" NBA center today?

Since Danny signed Horford to a max deal, I think we should expect him to be our center for the next few years.

Amir Johnson is a good player to pair him with as out two big men, as Amir is a defensive player first. Next year I can see Danny going after a PF who is a good Shot blocker and rebounder to pair with Horford. but not another center.

it's one of the reason I thought trading for Ibaka at draft time could make sense.
some player who might fill the bill next season?

J. Henson
N. Noel
D. Favors
E. Davis

All are top shot blockers and primary defensive players.

I would also note that shot blocking and interior defense may not be much of a problem this year.

Both Amir and Horford averaged the same 2.21 blocks per 48 minutes last year, enough for them to be tied for 31th in the League.

I think we can assume that if both stay healthy, we will get 3-4 blocks per game from them and solid to very good interior defense.

I was all for trying to Cousins here before the signing of Horford, but now I would pass and spend the future cap space n other directions.

we are solid inside, IMO.

We don't need Cousins. We need shooters! The Celtics' biggest problem last season was the lack of offensive firepower. How can you go to war with the likes of Golden State, Cleveland, and San Antonio if you haven't got the guns?


KJ