Jimmy Butler or Paul George?

If both were available, and the price for both were comparable (and they probably would be), which one would you trade for and why?

Neither, I like Jae and Jaylen

I voted neither. Butler's style of play isn't a good fit unless we intend to change things up from the offense Stevens has been running. That would also mean extended roster moves that I don't see on the horizon and wouldn't want to see. George would come at too high a price. I like the core we're building and would prefer using the draft and free agency over trading picks and key players we now have for these two.

I voted neither

I voted George, but I also like Jimmy Butler a lot.
In my opinion, Boston should make a big move now.
They should be trying to win the championship next season.
I don't think winning this season is realistic.

The one problem Boston is going to run into is time.
By the time Brown and a 1-4 pick this year are ready to be big time contributors (if they get there), Avery and IT will be getting paid $20+m per year and Kelly and Smart will be making $10+m per year, easy.

Boston has a better chance at the #4 pick this year than they do at getting the #1 pick.
What if that pick turns into Jonathan Isaac or Dennis Smith and not Fultz or Ball?
I say get the superstar now depending on what existing players have to be moved.
If Boston had IT, Bradley, Smart, Paul George, Horford and Olynyk, I would think Gordon Hayward would give serious consideration to signing with Boston this summer.

I voted George. I'd be willing to give up AB and Crowder but not this years Nets pick. George is a huge upgrade over Crowder and not only is AB's replacement on the way come draft night, Smart, Brown, Green, Rozier have proven that they can effectively make up for AB' absence. Also add in PG's 2 way versatility and point forward ability, much better than old fav Evan Turner, and we would not miss AB at all. Remember also that AB will be looking for an extension next year (as well as IT) and of the 2, IT gets it. For those who say that PG will be looking for an extension ss well, I say I'd much rather give it George than Bradley.

I am in the "neither" group as neither one of these guys helps with rebounding and both are too costly as far as a Nets pick and breaking up the team's core to match salaries.

TJ, I don't see Danny paying AB 20mil a year, especially if Fultz or Ball or even Smith is on the roster. While i know there are differences in where each franchise rebuild is, if the Lakers hold on to their pick should they trade out rather than risk having their pick "turn into" (your words) Isaac or Smith?  In a guard oriented league holding the best odds in a draft with 2 players that are considered can't miss, and are both more highly thought of than any guard since Wall and Irving, I'm willing to take my chances and I hope Danny feels the same.

Neither George or Paul fill a positional need. Neither are ELITE players

Why give up valuable assets to get something that you really do not need?

Either would reflect a mindless trade. Keep your shirts on..Boston is in the driver's seat.

dboss

willjr wrote:TJ, I don't see Danny paying AB 20mil a year, especially if Fultz or Ball or even Smith is on the roster. While i know there are differences in where each franchise rebuild is, if the Lakers hold on to their pick should they trade out rather than risk having their pick "turn into" (your words) Isaac or Smith?  In a guard oriented league holding the best odds in a draft with 2 players that are considered can't miss, and are both more highly thought of than any guard since Wall and Irving, I'm willing to take my chances and I hope Danny feels the same.

I would not assume that AB would be the one to go.

Futz and Ball are PG so maybe the guy that is moved is IT. I love IT but i would not give him Conley level $$$$ and since DA will not even be able to discuss an extension before the summer it makes no sense to move either AB or IT now.

Nevertheless no way you trade either one now for a SG or SF. Makes little sense to me.

dboss

Hi,
I voted George. I took it strictly PG vs JB. Obviously the price for either one has to be right.
Also, besides all other pro/con I think George is better equipped to fight Lebron than Butler is.
Also, my understanding is that the current snag in talks to acquire Butler is that Chi wants Crowder to be included. I think PG is a better replacement for JC.
OTOH, I have no clue about mental part of PG vs JB: how they are as leaders, how they are in the locker room, etc.
We'll see. 24 more hours...

AK

Dboss, I am both with you and against you. I would not under any circumstances trade this years Nets pick. But, I would swap Crowder for George in a NY minute and would move Bradley if Larry Legend wanted him. As I stated, PG is a huge upgrade over JC. You said earlier that you don't consider PG elite, that may be in the eye of the beholder, but I think he is definitely top 10-15 and imo only Lebron, Durant, and Leonard are better 3's small ball 4's than him. Also, he defenses Lebron better then anybody not named Kahwi.

dboss wrote:

willjr wrote:TJ, I don't see Danny paying AB 20mil a year, especially if Fultz or Ball or even Smith is on the roster. While i know there are differences in where each franchise rebuild is, if the Lakers hold on to their pick should they trade out rather than risk having their pick "turn into" (your words) Isaac or Smith?  In a guard oriented league holding the best odds in a draft with 2 players that are considered can't miss, and are both more highly thought of than any guard since Wall and Irving, I'm willing to take my chances and I hope Danny feels the same.

I would not assume that AB would be the one to go.

Futz and Ball are PG so maybe the guy that is moved is IT.  I love IT but i would not give him Conley level $$$$  and since DA will not even be able to discuss an extension before the summer it makes no sense to move either AB or IT now.  

Nevertheless no way you trade either one now for a SG or SF.  Makes little sense to me.

dboss

very good point, if we can land Fultz or Ball we will have a year to access them and if they are the 2nd coming of Jason Kidd/Magic Johnson then ofcourse we would have leverage if IT is demanding Conley type money to move him for a player or another draft pick.

well if George and Butler are not elite NBA players right now, I don't know what the definition is.

I don't think you can seriously make a list of the top 10-15 players in the NBA and not have both players on it.

I am on record as saying I want Butler here, but EITHER player is an ELITE NBA ALL -STAR and makes the Celtics a better team . Of course what you give up is always key, which is why I doubt either one gets moved at this time.

and right now I have moved on to wanting favors if a good deal can be made with Utah.

George not elite - Really ? - Last 4 years,,, all nba 3 times - All defensive nba 3 times- and during the 4th year he only played 6 games (out with a broken leg). The fact that out of about 450 players he's ranked in the top 15 makes him elite in my book. Which player in the upcoming draft,picked no worse than 4th, are you willing to bet the farm on, will match over their next 4 seasons the star quality that George has in his last 4 years. It may be that Bird has no intent to move him but if he does I sure hope that Danny is in the hunt.

  swish

Hi,
With all due respect, the only definition of elite player for me is if he can bring #18.

AK

I'm going with neither as well...

I love this team as it is- save the starting 5 spot, we need a rebounding defensive guy to let horford play the 4 and I'm good to go.

Keep the nets picks and crowder, brown, bradley, smart, horford, olynyk, and thomas and get us a damed legit 5.

willjr wrote:Dboss, I am both with you and against you. I would not under any circumstances trade this years Nets pick. But, I would swap Crowder for George in a NY minute and would move Bradley if Larry Legend wanted him. As I stated, PG is a huge upgrade over JC. You said earlier that you don't consider PG elite, that may be in the eye of the beholder, but I think he is definitely top 10-15 and imo only Lebron, Durant, and Leonard are better 3's small ball 4's than him. Also, he defenses Lebron better then anybody not named Kahwi.

JC is obviously not the level of player that GP is but i still do not consider him Elite.

Lebron is Elite and has proved that even when he was Cleveland the first time around.  He carried the team to the Championship round.  As good as GP is what has he ever done??? Not only that he is damaged goods in my opinion.  Also when you consider the salary for Crowder vs the salary for GP, on par Crowder is better than GP given the salary.  

The thing is everybody wants this guy or that guy but no one is looking at the cash and comparing it to what we have.  That is one point and the other point is that Danny used the #3 pick to draft Jalen Brown who is an elite level athlete and is quickly developing into a solid contributor.  So we have two small forwards on the roster already under contract for relatively short money.  SF is not a position where we really need to upgrade the talent level.  Bird is not moving PG for Avery Bradley straight up but even if they did it would still be an unnecessary move.

Sometimes the status quo is the way to go and no one has been able to make a convincing argument about making a trade for either butler or George when you take into account all of the variable.  So if someone can do that for me I would be most appreciative.  Does the player fill a positional need?  How will that player fit into the Celtics style, How will the player impact the cap, what is the value of current and future assets that you would need to part with to get them, what impact will the player have on team chemistry, will the player be the missing piece to banner # 18?

It simply makes great sense to build through the draft when (1) you already have a solid core, (2) those draft picks are high lottery selections and (3) You maintain cap flexibility throughout the process.

dboss

kdp59 wrote:well if George and Butler are not elite NBA players right now, I don't know what the definition is.

I don't think you can seriously make a list of the top 10-15 players in the NBA and not have both players on it.

I am on record as saying I want Butler here, but EITHER player is an ELITE NBA ALL -STAR and makes the Celtics a better team . Of course what you give up is always key, which is why I doubt either one gets moved at this time.

and right now I have moved on to wanting favors if a good deal can be  made with Utah.

yea I know you have been wanting Butler here but it is not going to happen and the PG trade is not going to happen because if you consider all factors those trades would not be good trades.  If either one of those players represented the missing piece to a championship then perhaps it would make sense to do the deal.  

I do not think that either of them are top 15 players.  But it is not really about how good they are or if they are elite or almost elite or whatever.  The point I have been making over and over again is that we really do not have a need for either one of them and the cost associated with acquisition both in terms of assets as well as future cap flexibility is very likely to derail a long term run at contention.

We need to upgrade our frontline.  Our 1, 2 and 3 positional players are collectively as good as any team in the NBA.  Are Butler or PG going to solve our rebounding woes?  Do either provide rim protection? Are either one of them under a low cost contract?  The answer is simple.  NO, NO, NO

dboss

Paul George will not sign an extension in 18 months to remain a Celtic. His heart yearns to be a Laker. Don't waste valuable talent for a rental.

Dboss,
I greatly respect your views on this and since we are talking hypotheticals I'll try to play long range GM, not in an attempt to change your mind but to make my GM fantasy clearer. I was not suggesting a George for Bradley trade. My scenario based on the poll question would be I'd trade JC, AB and a non Nets pick for George. Again, PG is a huge upgrade over JC.  The guard play we've had during Avery's injury has shown that we are capable at that spot to continue to play as well as anybody. The draft brings a highly talented point guard who, in the case of Fultz and Smith,  also have 2 guard skills. In 2018 AB hits free agency, as does IT, who would be my priority of the two. George has a player option that allows him to as well. George or no, I don't give AB 20 mil. George i do. He would/could be the max free agent that we all feel it will take to elevate us. If he is already here there is no wooing to be done. If he leaves we are still in good shape cap wise.  If the choice in 2018 is George or Bradley at max or near max $$ then I'm all for PG. If George walks we make a play for another free agent, maybe G. Hayward. Maybe we lose Crowder and George but we drafted JB 3rd for a reason and I think that George is good enough and, paired with what we'd have, a difference maker enough that I'd take the chance. While I like both JC and AB, I think that even if in my hypothetical George leaves, we would have their replacements on hand in JB at the 3 and Smart/2017 pick at combo. We are NOT reaching championship level through picks alone. It will take a combination of picks and proven star performance. Looking at the future landscape I don't see anyone better than PG who may be attainable. I know we need rebounding and rim protection but who do you propose that to be? In today's NBA there are only 4 guys who have those skills with no glaring holes in their games and are star performers, Embid, Boogie, KAT, and A. Davis. I can guarantee you that even in my fantasy GM role those 4 are not walking through the door. This is why I answered the poll question the way I did, and it was with thoughts on looking ahead a year or two. Again, I DO NOT trade either Nets pick but pick up an all NBA player, no way I don't do it. Sorry for the essay, I can get long winded at times.

tjmakz wrote:I voted George, but I also like Jimmy Butler a lot.
In my opinion, Boston should make a big move now.
They should be trying to win the championship next season.
I don't think winning this season is realistic.

The one problem Boston is going to run into is time.
By the time Brown and a 1-4 pick this year are ready to be big time contributors (if they get there), Avery and IT will be getting paid $20+m per year and Kelly and Smart will be making $10+m per year, easy.

Boston has a better chance at the #4 pick this year than they do at getting the #1 pick.
What if that pick turns into Jonathan Isaac or Dennis Smith and not Fultz or Ball?
I say get the superstar now depending on what existing players have to be moved.
If Boston had IT, Bradley, Smart, Paul George, Horford and Olynyk, I would think Gordon Hayward would give serious consideration to signing with Boston this summer.

"Boston has a better chance at the #4 pick this year than they do at getting the #1 pick."


That's technically true but just for the record, the odds of Boston's pick being in the top 3 is 64.3%.  


Here's how it breaks down:


#1 - 25%
#2 - 21.5%
#3 - 17.8%
#4 - 35.4%

sinus007 wrote:Hi,
With all due respect, the only definition of elite player for me is if he can bring #18.

AK

Sinus,

Applying that standard, Wilt Chamberlain and Charles Barkley weren't elite players but James Posey and Eddie House were for us.  Ron Harper started next to MJ. Was he "elite"?  Perk won a ring with us.  He played a specific role, and it hurt us when he blew out his knee in Game 6, but was he elite?

I understand all the arguments for and against these trades.  What I do not understand are the claims that these two players are not elite.  I think Swish laid out why George is elite pretty accurately.

I just wish I had as much faith in the draft as many of our board members.   If I was confident a top 4 pick would become a perennial All-Star like George and Butler are, I would never trade away such a pick.  Sadly, however, it is FAR too easy for me to come up with names of top 4 picks who have not become perennial All-Stars.

We need another Go-To guy, another killa like IT.  Talk about #18, there no way we get that close without another player that strikes fear into opposing teams to take some of the pressure off of IT.  That player might be Fultz or Ball or whomever, but probably not for 3-4 years.  Even then they might end up being another Jeff Green, a #5 pick.  Outstanding talent, a safe draft pick but lacks that certain intangible needed in champions.  In 3-4 years AL Horford will be old.  Waiting, and hoping, for our young'uns to develop wastes our veterans' prime.  It is a timing issue.

Nothing succeeds like success.  GSW won.  They came close a 2nd year and got KD and then got Zaza and West and McGee for veteran minimums because nothing succeeds like success.  Let's win ONE and then worry about whether we can have a dynasty.


bob


.

willjr wrote:Dboss,
I greatly respect your views on this and since we are talking hypotheticals I'll try to play long range GM, not in an attempt to change your mind but to make my GM fantasy clearer. I was not suggesting a George for Bradley trade. My scenario based on the poll question would be I'd trade JC, AB and a non Nets pick for George. Again, PG is a huge upgrade over JC.  The guard play we've had during Avery's injury has shown that we are capable at that spot to continue to play as well as anybody. The draft brings a highly talented point guard who, in the case of Fultz and Smith,  also have 2 guard skills. In 2018 AB hits free agency, as does IT, who would be my priority of the two. George has a player option that allows him to as well. George or no, I don't give AB 20 mil. George i do. He would/could be the max free agent that we all feel it will take to elevate us. If he is already here there is no wooing to be done. If he leaves we are still in good shape cap wise.  If the choice in 2018 is George or Bradley at max or near max $$ then I'm all for PG. If George walks we make a play for another free agent, maybe G. Hayward. Maybe we lose Crowder and George but we drafted JB 3rd for a reason and I think that George is good enough and, paired with what we'd have, a difference maker enough that I'd take the chance. While I like both JC and AB, I think that even if in my hypothetical George leaves, we would have their replacements on hand in JB at the 3 and Smart/2017 pick at combo. We are NOT reaching championship level through picks alone. It will take a combination of picks and proven star performance. Looking at the future landscape I don't see anyone better than PG who may be attainable. I know we need rebounding and rim protection but who do you propose that to be? In today's NBA there are only 4 guys who have those skills with no glaring holes in their games and are star performers, Embid, Boogie, KAT, and A. Davis. I can guarantee you that even in my fantasy GM role those 4 are not walking through the door. This is why I answered the poll question the way I did, and it was with thoughts on looking ahead a year or two. Again, I DO NOT trade either Nets pick but pick up an all NBA player, no way I don't do it. Sorry for the essay, I can get long winded at times.

Back at you as I also respect your opinion.  Having said that, let me point out a couple of things.

The poll did not ask who would you give up to get either JB or PG.

I do not agree that PG is a huge upgrade over Crowder all things considered which must include salary.  Jay is as good of a rebounder as PG.  No huge upgrade there.  Jay is shooting .405% from distance.  no huge upgrade there.  Jay is an excellent hard nosed defender.  Jay averages 14 a game on 10 shot attempts while GP is at 23 on 18 attempts be game.  PG takes more shots on his team than anybody.  If he was playing on Boston he would get less FGA so again you have to consider roles this team. Jay is signed through the 2019-2020 season with a salary that tops off at $7.8 Million.  PG has a player option after next year at $20 million.  He is going to want at least $25 million if he opps out.  Do the math my friend.  There is zero possibility that PG is a huge upgrade over JC and I have not factored in Jalen Browns upside and cap friendly contract.  Don't fix what aint broke.  We are more than set at the SF spot.

I am not going to assume that IT is a lock and AB will be gone.  IF Boston drafts Fultz IT may be the expendable player especially if he wants Conley level dough.  AB is having his best all around year ever and is well worth $20 million.  He is the best damn two way player on the team.  shoots the 3 ball rebounds and is considered one of the very best on the ball defenders in the NBA.  Celts played well without him but don't be fooled.  Bradley is a vital piece to the puzzle.  

The draft next year is loaded with bigs and the Celtics should be in the mix to land one.  Free agency during the summer also opens up some opportunities to strengthen the front line.  Lastly let's not forget Zizic and Yabu may come over.

The bottom line is that DA knows what he is doing.  It makes no good sense to expend assets on roster moves that are not really needed and that are very likely to compromise future cap flexibility.

dboss

bobheckler wrote:

sinus007 wrote:Hi,
With all due respect, the only definition of elite player for me is if he can bring #18.

AK

Sinus,

Applying that standard, Wilt Chamberlain and Charles Barkley weren't elite players but James Posey and Eddie House were for us.  Ron Harper started next to MJ. Was he "elite"?  Perk won a ring with us.  He played a specific role, and it hurt us when he blew out his knee in Game 6, but was he elite?

I understand all the arguments for and against these trades.  What I do not understand are the claims that these two players are not elite.  I think Swish laid out why George is elite pretty accurately.

I just wish I had as much faith in the draft as many of our board members.   If I was confident a top 4 pick would become a perennial All-Star like George and Butler are, I would never trade away such a pick.  Sadly, however, it is FAR too easy for me to come up with names of top 4 picks who have not become perennial All-Stars.

We need another Go-To guy, another killa like IT.  Talk about #18, there no way we get that close without another player that strikes fear into opposing teams to take some of the pressure off of IT.  That player might be Fultz or Ball or whomever, but probably not for 3-4 years.  Even then they might end up being another Jeff Green, a #5 pick.  Outstanding talent, a safe draft pick but lacks that certain intangible needed in champions.  In 3-4 years AL Horford will be old.  Waiting, and hoping, for our young'uns to develop wastes our veterans' prime.  It is a timing issue.

Nothing succeeds like success.  GSW won.  They came close a 2nd year and got KD and then got Zaza and West and McGee for veteran minimums because nothing succeeds like success.  Let's win ONE and then worry about whether we can have a dynasty.


bob


.

bob

Your above sentiments are exactly the same as mine. One other point on this issue - One of the defining criteria for an elite scorer should be that they be a player that excepts the challenge of being the go to shooter. They are the successful high volume shooters that lead the team in fga's . George certainly fills the bill in that respect.

swish