Markelle Fultz a worthy favorite, but not everybody agrees Boston Celtics should draft him

http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2017/06/nba_draft_boston_celtics_marke.html



Markelle Fultz a worthy favorite, but not everybody agrees Boston Celtics should draft him


Updated on June 9, 2017 at 2:47 PM Posted on June 9, 2017 at 10:45 AM



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Markelle Fultz to the Boston Celtics at No. 1? Breaking down the top 2017 NBA Draft prospect



BY JAY KING



BOSTON -- Two weeks away from the NBA Draft, Markelle Fultz is widely considered the frontrunner to go No. 1 overall to the Boston Celtics. The majority of front-office figures appear to favor him at that spot. So do all the most respected mock drafts: DraftExpress, ESPN and The Ringer.

But some executives around the league believe it's possible the Celtics will veer in a different direction. An informal poll conducted by MassLive revealed Lonzo Ball and/or Josh Jackson are favored in some corners of front offices, suggesting the Celtics could at least have a decision to make over the next couple of weeks.

Despite Fultz's reputation, they have been adamant that's the case. Team president of basketball operations Danny Ainge has vowed to explore all options, including, but not limited to, Fultz. After Fultz's visit to Boston earlier this week, Ainge made it clear he intends to continue evaluating other prospects and trade opportunities.

Like everyone else, the Celtics are high on Fultz. When undergoing trade talks involving Paul George and Jimmy Butler in February, you can bet the Celtics kept it in mind they might end up in this exact position: with a team that reached the Eastern Conference Finals, an opportunity to chase top free agents, and the No. 1 pick in their back pocket. Even before the trade deadline, there was at least some talk in their front office about wanting to hold onto the pick if, in fact, it yielded a chance to acquire Fultz. If Ainge decides on a different player, there could be some spirited debate from his staffers.

But some front-office figures outside the Celtics organization believe there's at least a possibility Ainge falls in love with another prospect, mostly because this is not a one-player draft. Some still consider Fultz a "no-brainer" selection or the "obvious" top pick, but dissenters are out there, too.

One rival executive said he would put Fultz somewhere in the top three, but prefers Ball "and maybe Jackson" to the Washington product. A scout for a different team ranked Jackson first followed by Fultz and then Ball. On CSNNE, Sports Illustrated's Ian Thomsen said one general manager called Jackson the best player in the draft. As recently as a couple of months ago, ESPN's Chad Ford suggested lottery teams were split on whether Ball or Fultz should be the top pick.

Based on conversations, the case against taking Fultz first goes something like this: his defense needs work, his team won just nine games last season, and Ball and Jackson are both great talents in their own right. One executive who spoke to MassLive recently said that while a college team's record obviously isn't the best indicator of how a player's professional career will unfold, it was still jarring to see the top prospect's team fail to crack double-digit victories. Ben Simmons went No. 1 overall last season after his college team missed the NCAA tournament, but even Simmons' LSU squad more than doubled Fultz's Washington crew with 19 wins.

Even those who prefer another prospect agree Fultz should develop into a really good NBA player. It's easier to find people who consider him the clear prize of this year's draft. His Washington team had an obvious talent deficit around him, plus a coach, Lorenzo Romar, who was fired after the season. Top mock drafts have consistently held Fultz at the top, a sign of the way talent evaluators view the 19-year-old's potential.

He's the likely No. 1 pick, but this draft is deep enough The Ringer's draft expert Kevin O'Connor said he would consider trading down if he were in Boston's position.

"For the Celtics, I would have only been worried about the worst-case scenario on lottery night: falling to No. 4," said one rival executive.

He added: "If Jackson didn't shoot 56 percent (actually 57) from the free throw line this year, he'd be getting a lot of top-pick buzz."

But legitimate concerns about Jackson's shot and shooting form exist. And while Ball's one of the best passing prospects in a long time, he doesn't pop as a scoring threat inside the arc.

At 6-foot-4 with a monster wingspan and a complete pick-and-roll skill set, Fultz is a more well-rounded offensive talent with fewer question marks. He's a legitimate No. 1 prospect, even if you can find some smart people who would pass on him at the top of the draft.



bob
MY NOTE: I don't watch college hoops, so my opinions are limited by his highlight films (which don't show his weaknesses) and by what I read on this board but I love that it's our call as to who we get and not hoping someone else doesn't take the player Danny wants.


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My question would be.......if Fultz and Ball switched teams last year, what happens?

I say WAS wins fewer games, and UCLA goes to the Final 4, at least.

Fultz had no top notch team mates, while Ball has three who might be first round picks. I don't buy into this "leading his team" crap

red16russ11 wrote:My question would be.......if Fultz and Ball switched teams last year, what happens?

I say WAS wins fewer games, and UCLA goes to the Final 4, at least.

Fultz had no top notch team mates, while Ball has three who might be first round picks.  I don't buy into this "leading his team" crap

Red,

Ok, let's take this the next step:

Suppose Jackson and Tatum and Smith and Fox and Monk (to name the top players) switched teams with Fultz, especially the guards since that would be more of a one-to-one comparison?


bob


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red16russ11 wrote:My question would be.......if Fultz and Ball switched teams last year, what happens?

I say WAS wins fewer games, and UCLA goes to the Final 4, at least.

Fultz had no top notch team mates, while Ball has three who might be first round picks.  I don't buy into this "leading his team" crap

The question about winning and Fultz is that his teams have never won.
Not in HS.
Not on his AAU team.
Not in college.
Does he make players better or is he a volume scorer because of the amount of shots he takes when his team is down double digits?
In the 13 seasons before Fultz went to Washington, they never won less than 16 games and averaged 21.4 wins per season in those 13 seasons.
Last year Washington won only 9 games.
Is this a concern for Boston or other teams?
We will find out next week.
My guess is this won't be a big concern.
If Boston does not draft Fultz, I don't think it will be because of his college W/L record.

tjmakz wrote:

red16russ11 wrote:My question would be.......if Fultz and Ball switched teams last year, what happens?

I say WAS wins fewer games, and UCLA goes to the Final 4, at least.

Fultz had no top notch team mates, while Ball has three who might be first round picks.  I don't buy into this "leading his team" crap

The question about winning and Fultz is that his teams have never won.
Not in HS.
Not on his AAU team.
Not in college.
Does he make players better or is he a volume scorer because of the amount of shots he takes when his team is down double digits?
In the 13 seasons before Fultz went to Washington, they never won less than 16 games and averaged 21.4 wins per season in those 13 seasons.
Last year Washington won only 9 games.
Is this a concern for Boston or other teams?
We will find out next week.
My guess is this won't be a big concern.
If Boston does not draft Fultz, I don't think it will be because of his college W/L record.

He'll do better with winning next season

It's just me talking here, not based upon anything specific, but I'm not convinced Danny is going to pick Fultz or, if he does pick him, that he's going to keep him.

It's just a feeling.  I have been looking for reports of the Celtics bringing in players to work out for them and I'm not seeing them.  No reports of Jackson being brought in for a workout like Fultz was, no reports of Tatum being brought in, nor Fox, nor Monk.  Dennis Smith was brought in on 6/7 but, interestingly, there has been zero press coverage of that visit and workout and Jonathon Isaac was worked out.  Unless Danny trades down I do not see him taking either Smith or Isaac with #1.  So, there really is no evidence of disenchantment in Fultz nor excitement about someone else for me to base this opinion on.

Maybe I'm just being too much of a cynic.  The lack of obvious workouts is unusual for Danny and Brad.  I realize they've never been in this situation before, where they DON'T have to make a choice based upon who is left on the board when they pick and that makes it easier.  I've just been watching Danny for so many years.  I've seen how he is.  It's like how, just before an attack, all communication chatter stops.  When Danny stops talking about players and trades that's when something always seems to be in the works and he did make a point of saying that he has been watching all of these top players since AAU and High School.  

Philly told Ben Simmons before the draft last year he was going to be #1.  The presumptive #1 picks often get the word in advance precisely because it's a no-brainer.  Danny hasn't said bupkiss to Fultz.  In fact, Fultz is saying the exact opposite, he said Danny told him nothing is promised and he has to earn it.  I know, that could mean a lot of things or be nothing at all, but what it was not was an embrace of the inevitable, not even after Fultz completed his workout.

Just me, worrying.


bob


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tjmakz wrote:

red16russ11 wrote:My question would be.......if Fultz and Ball switched teams last year, what happens?

I say WAS wins fewer games, and UCLA goes to the Final 4, at least.

Fultz had no top notch team mates, while Ball has three who might be first round picks.  I don't buy into this "leading his team" crap

The question about winning and Fultz is that his teams have never won.
Not in HS.
Not on his AAU team.
Not in college.
Does he make players better or is he a volume scorer because of the amount of shots he takes when his team is down double digits?
In the 13 seasons before Fultz went to Washington, they never won less than 16 games and averaged 21.4 wins per season in those 13 seasons.
Last year Washington won only 9 games.
Is this a concern for Boston or other teams?
We will find out next week.
My guess is this won't be a big concern.
If Boston does not draft Fultz, I don't think it will be because of his college W/L record.

TJ

Let's correct the record here.  You have stated that none of Fultz teams have one.  That is not an accurate statement.

You may want to check out the USA vs Canada U18 game played last summer where Fultz was name MVP on a very talented team

http://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2016/7/27/12285436/markelle-fultz-nba-draft-2017-fiba-americas-u18

Here is more video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hrDJmLChMM

dboss

dboss wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

red16russ11 wrote:My question would be.......if Fultz and Ball switched teams last year, what happens?

I say WAS wins fewer games, and UCLA goes to the Final 4, at least.

Fultz had no top notch team mates, while Ball has three who might be first round picks.  I don't buy into this "leading his team" crap

The question about winning and Fultz is that his teams have never won.
Not in HS.
Not on his AAU team.
Not in college.
Does he make players better or is he a volume scorer because of the amount of shots he takes when his team is down double digits?
In the 13 seasons before Fultz went to Washington, they never won less than 16 games and averaged 21.4 wins per season in those 13 seasons.
Last year Washington won only 9 games.
Is this a concern for Boston or other teams?
We will find out next week.
My guess is this won't be a big concern.
If Boston does not draft Fultz, I don't think it will be because of his college W/L record.

TJ

Let's correct the record here.  You have stated that none of Fultz teams have one.  That is not an accurate statement.

You may want to check out the USA vs Canada U18 game played last summer where Fultz was name MVP on a very talented team

http://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2016/7/27/12285436/markelle-fultz-nba-draft-2017-fiba-americas-u18

Here is more video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hrDJmLChMM

dboss

Fultz USA team won, but that was only 5 games over 5 days with a stacked roster.
Yes, it looks like Fultz played well.
But, I don't think you can point to one team who played some games over a long weekend and use that as an example that Fultz really is a winner.

Really!

I just pointing out that you made an incorrect statement that needed to be corrected. Now you are suggesting that winning a 5 game tournament does not count. That being named the MVP does not count?

dboss

In the gold medal game Fultz lead the USA

http://usatodayhss.com/2016/washington-signee-markelle-fultz-leads-u18-to-gold-at-fiba-americas-championship

Markelle Fultz scored 23 points to lead the Team USA U18 squad past Canada 99-84 in the FIBA Americas Championship gold medal game Saturday in Chile.

dboss

dboss,

If you want me to say that Fultz is a winner because his loaded team won all 5 games in 5 days, then fine. He's a big time winner.
Then we will ignore all of the other teams he was on for whole seasons.

I'm not saying he's not a very good prospect.
There's been some scouts/GM's that have shared some concerns about him being a stat stuffer on crappy teams.

It's not his fault he was on a crappy team.
His coach was fired last year for having many crappy teams in succession.
I like how Danny likened him to a quarterback who throws for 400 yards and loses.

My question still is - if Fultz played at UCLA, would they be better? I say yes, or at least as good. And, if Ball played at WAS, would they be as bad? I say worse because NO ONE would score......Ball would be passing to guys who can't score.

This is a ridiculous criticism of Fultz. It's not his fault Lorenzo Romar didn't get him better team mates.

TJ

I just want you to show some honesty.

You stated that none of his teams ever won.

The U18 USA team represents the highest level of competition for these young players coming out of HS.

The problem with your statement is that it is not factual and it appears to reflects an attempt by you to impugn his legitimacy.

A simple I was wrong will do the trick.

dboss

dboss wrote:TJ

I just want you to show some honesty.

You stated that none of his teams ever won.

The U18 USA team represents the highest level of competition for these young players coming out of HS.  

The problem with your statement is that it is not factual and it appears to reflects an attempt by you to impugn his legitimacy.

A simple I was wrong will do the trick.

dboss

Sorry, I don't equate a hand picked USA team playing 5 games against inferior talent as a 'team'.
Do you give credit as being a winner to Anthony Davis for being on the winning 2012 USA men's Olympic team?
I don't.
You have said over the last month that Fultz will definitely be Boston's pick.
Many others disagree with you.
I do think that Fultz will be the #1 pick.
My concerns about him are not primarily about his teams lack of winning.
It's hard to gauge what is his fault and what is not his fault when it comes to his teams W/L records.
I have expressed here my concerns about Fultz long before the draft lottery.

As per the article Bob shared, quite a few don't believe that Boston is locked in with Fultz.
If Ball would agree to a workout with Boston, I would bet money that Boston would take him up on that.

here we go.................

tjmakz wrote:

dboss wrote:TJ

I just want you to show some honesty.

You stated that none of his teams ever won.

The U18 USA team represents the highest level of competition for these young players coming out of HS.  

The problem with your statement is that it is not factual and it appears to reflects an attempt by you to impugn his legitimacy.

A simple I was wrong will do the trick.

dboss

Sorry, I don't equate a hand picked USA team playing 5 games against inferior talent as a 'team'.
Do you give credit as being a winner to Anthony Davis for being on the winning 2012 USA men's Olympic team?
I don't.
You have said over the last month that Fultz will definitely be Boston's pick.
Many others disagree with you.
I do think that Fultz will be the #1 pick.
My concerns about him are not primarily about his teams lack of winning.
It's hard to gauge what is his fault and what is not his fault when it comes to his teams W/L records.
I have expressed here my concerns about Fultz long before the draft lottery.

As per the article Bob shared, quite a few don't believe that Boston is locked in with Fultz.
If Ball would agree to a workout with Boston, I would bet money that Boston would take him up on that.

TJ

"Sorry, I don't equate a hand picked USA team playing 5 games against inferior talent as a 'team'."

If they were not a team what were they?  Did the other countries also put together the best that they had?

"Do you give credit as being a winner to Anthony Davis for being on the winning 2012 USA men's Olympic team?
I don't.

Yes because if he was not a great player he would not have been on the team.

"You have said over the last month that Fultz will definitely be Boston's pick.
Many others disagree with you."

I am part of the consensus that believes that Fultz is the #1 talent available and Boston will definitely draft him.

"My concerns about him are not primarily about his teams lack of winning."

What are your concerns?  Are you suggesting that he is not a winning type of player?

"It's hard to gauge what is his fault and what is not his fault when it comes to his teams W/L records."

Basketball is a team sport unlike tennis or boxing or golf where the individual determines the outcome.  There are a lot of great players in the NBA that happen to be on bad teams.  Some of those players have been mentioned here as possible trade targets or free agent acquisitions.

I'm pulling for Fultz because i truly believe that he is a very talented basketball player.  He is less than perfect but has less warts than all of the other prospects in the draft.  

dboss

dboss wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

dboss wrote:TJ

I just want you to show some honesty.

You stated that none of his teams ever won.

The U18 USA team represents the highest level of competition for these young players coming out of HS.  

The problem with your statement is that it is not factual and it appears to reflects an attempt by you to impugn his legitimacy.

A simple I was wrong will do the trick.

dboss

Sorry, I don't equate a hand picked USA team playing 5 games against inferior talent as a 'team'.
Do you give credit as being a winner to Anthony Davis for being on the winning 2012 USA men's Olympic team?
I don't.
You have said over the last month that Fultz will definitely be Boston's pick.
Many others disagree with you.
I do think that Fultz will be the #1 pick.
My concerns about him are not primarily about his teams lack of winning.
It's hard to gauge what is his fault and what is not his fault when it comes to his teams W/L records.
I have expressed here my concerns about Fultz long before the draft lottery.

As per the article Bob shared, quite a few don't believe that Boston is locked in with Fultz.
If Ball would agree to a workout with Boston, I would bet money that Boston would take him up on that.

TJ

"Sorry, I don't equate a hand picked USA team playing 5 games against inferior talent as a 'team'."

If they were not a team what were they?  Did the other countries also put together the best that they had?

"Do you give credit as being a winner to Anthony Davis for being on the winning 2012 USA men's Olympic team?
I don't.

Yes because if he was not a great player he would not have been on the team.

"You have said over the last month that Fultz will definitely be Boston's pick.
Many others disagree with you."

I am part of the consensus that believes that Fultz is the #1 talent available and Boston will definitely draft him.

"My concerns about him are not primarily about his teams lack of winning."

What are your concerns?  Are you suggesting that he is not a winning type of player?

"It's hard to gauge what is his fault and what is not his fault when it comes to his teams W/L records."

Basketball is a team sport unlike tennis or boxing or golf where the individual determines the outcome.  There are a lot of great players in the NBA that happen to be on bad teams.  Some of those players have been mentioned here as possible trade targets or free agent acquisitions.

I'm pulling for Fultz because i truly believe that he is a very talented basketball player.  He is less than perfect but has less warts than all of the other prospects in the draft.  

dboss

I think he's setting us up for the "we took the better player" argument after the lakers take Ball. Already starting out here..........."why do we need Fultz, Lonzo is the better player...."........typical lakers stuff!!

TJ, When you say Markelle's team never won in High School, to what are you referring?
His 2015-16 DeMatha team went 33-5.

http://www.maxpreps.com/high-schools/dematha-stags-(hyattsville,md)/basketball-winter-15-16/schedule.htm

RedRuss,

I can answer dboss by myself.
Thank you anyway.

worcester wrote:TJ, When you say Markelle's team never won in High School, to what are you referring?
His 2015-16 DeMatha team went 33-5.

http://www.maxpreps.com/high-schools/dematha-stags-(hyattsville,md)/basketball-winter-15-16/schedule.htm

Worcester,

I read somewhere (I believe on draftexpress, maybe) that his HS, AAU and college teams did not win.
A 33-5 team in HS is absolutely a very winning season.
I stand corrected about my previous comments.
Thanks for doing the research into this.

Red

If the Lakers pass on Ball which is a possibility they will take Jackson. The draft is deep and it is setting up to be a can't miss opportunity through 5 or 6.

The Lakers would draft Fultz if they were sitting at #1. Fortunately they are not.

The Lakers have tough decision to make. The Celtics have an easy decision to make!

dboss

TJ, the number of things I read on the internet the prove to be false are literally innumerable, and I'm not talking about politics either - a world of half-truths and faux news that befuddles even the most agile mind!

dboss wrote:Red

If the Lakers pass on Ball which is a possibility they will take Jackson. The draft is deep and it is setting up to be a can't miss opportunity through 5 or 6.

The Lakers would draft Fultz if they were sitting at #1. Fortunately they are not.

The Lakers have tough decision to make. The Celtics have an easy decision to make!

dboss

I'm cynical because I live out in LA..................they are as delusional as Daddy Ball. I'm ready for the better player comps. I agree we should take Fultz and not look back............"but he has so many holes in his game and his teams never won......"
Blah blah blah....
Take the kid, and play him.

tjmakz wrote:dboss,

If you want me to say that Fultz is a winner because his loaded team won all 5 games in 5 days, then fine. He's a big time winner.
Then we will ignore all of the other teams he was on for whole seasons.

I'm not saying he's not a very good prospect.
There's been some scouts/GM's that have shared some concerns about him being a stat stuffer on crappy teams.

you were wrong, stop whining and twisting your words.....man up

This is not a draft where there's a clear cut #1 player.
In many years in the past, we all knew who #1 was going to be.
As the story in this thread details, many league executives prefer Jackson or Ball over Fultz.
A month or so ago, Chad ford interviewed 14 team executives and found that 7 preferred Fultz and 7 Ball.

If you are in the Fultz camp, that's great, stick with that.
The #1 pick seems like it's Fultz in the lead.
Yes, the #2 pick gets trickier.
Both 1 and 2 should be solid NBA contributors.
Will they be anymore than that?
Only time will tell.

cowens/oldschool wrote:

tjmakz wrote:dboss,

If you want me to say that Fultz is a winner because his loaded team won all 5 games in 5 days, then fine. He's a big time winner.
Then we will ignore all of the other teams he was on for whole seasons.

I'm not saying he's not a very good prospect.
There's been some scouts/GM's that have shared some concerns about him being a stat stuffer on crappy teams.

you were wrong, stop whining and twisting your words.....man up

The winner part I was not correct on.
The concerns about him being a stat stuffer on at least a crappy college team seem to be a valid concern from from scouts/GM's.