HAYWARD POSSIBLE SIGN AND TRADE NOW?

he Utah Jazz are willing to engage in talks on a Gordon Hayward sign-and-trade deal with the Boston Celtics, league sources told the Tribune on Wednesday evening, on one condition: Hayward, who committed to signing with the Celtics on Tuesday, would have to agree and get the ball rolling. – via Salt Lake Tribune


Adam Himmelsbach: Ha, a Jazz fan here in Salt Lake just yelled to Ainge in the quiet arena. “Danny Ainge! Trade us Avery Bradley!” – via Twitter
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NBA Rumors: Jazz Open To Gordon Hayward Sign-And-Trade With Celtics

NESN by Cameron McDonough on Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 9:30PM UPDATE (9:30 p.m. ET):


The Jazz and Celtics are engaged in sign-and-trade discussions for Gordon Hayward, according to multiple reports, and the mystery player Boston is considering sending to Utah apparently is Jae Crowder, per ESPN’s Adrian Wojnarowski.

ORIGINAL STORY: The Gordon Hayward news might not be over.

The most coveted NBA free agent decided to leave the Utah Jazz and agree to sign with the Boston Celtics on Tuesday, but the C’s still have some work to do in order to fit the forward’s contract into their salary cap space. Sponsored See Why The Best Spot In The Class Is From The Comfort Of Your Home! Ad by Peloton One move that could help Boston is to complete a sign-and-trade for Hayward, and it turns out the Jazz would be willing to do one, a source told The Salt Lake Tribune’s Tony Jones on Wednesday.

That also could help Utah, since it might get one of the players the C’s reportedly are trying to move to free up cap space — Avery Bradley, Marcus Smart and Jae Crowder. One catch to the Jazz’s reported willingness to a sign-and-trade, though, is Hayward “would have to agree and get the ball rolling,” according to Jones.

Also, while Jones didn’t mention it in his report, the Celtics could believe that they can make salary cap room by making separate trades and gathering more assets. But a sign-and-trade still could be a helpful solution to the issues facing both Boston and Utah.

Read more at: http://nesn.com/2017/07/nba-rumors-jazz-open-to-gordon-hayward-sign-and-trade-with-celtics/

They would do this after the fact??? Doesn't make sense, although it would be one way of getting this all straightened out.

RosalieTCeltics wrote:They would do this after the fact???  Doesn't make sense, although it would be one way of getting this all straightened out.

There is still time to make a deal. One of many avenues.

This is starting to smell like a pile of horse s

Signing a free agent aka...AH is one thing but having to do a sign and trade is another.

The $2,000,000 drop in cap is what did it. With all the teams in the league why do we have to deal with Utah? Because they at least want to get something in return for losing Hayward and would be more likely to engage in a deal?

This is not what was expected.

dboss

In my opinion this should have been worked out in advance.

Maybe if Tatum's summer league preview is any indicator, we just ship Hayward back and forget about him.

That's a tongue-in-cheek statement, lest anyone get all wound up.  Then again...

Spencer Checketts: Jazz have gone quiet, but source tells me team is highly disappointed with the manner in which Hayward handle his exit. I’m told Jazz had as many as “three options” they were waiting to seriously explore yesterday (including Otto Potter) but were forced to wait on Hayward.. – via Twitter 1280Spence


Spencer Checketts: At this juncture, Hayward and Bartelstein have the “ball in their court” re: sign and trade with Utah and Boston. Target for Utah in scenario is Jae Crowder. With everything Hayward and Bartelstein have done, making this happens is the least they can do. – via Twitter 1280Spence


Spencer Checketts: Source says Bartelstein brought idea to Stevens, who signed off and brought it to Ainge. No word from Danny. But GH/MB can make it happen. – via Twitter 1280Spence

This has to be the strangest "free agent" deals ever.  Deal made, leaked, retracted, wait, essay written and posted, deal confirmed, done.  Then the money doesn't fit unless the team is practically dismantled?  Who was in control of this runaway train?

Gordon Hayward agreed to this?

Can anyone think of one that tops this?

gyso

The Utah Jazz and Boston Celtics are in ongoing talks over a sign-and-trade that involves Gordon Hayward getting a max contract and Jae Crowder coming to Utah, league sources told The Salt Lake Tribune on Wednesday. – via Salt Lake Tribune


Trade, Gordon Hayward, Jae Crowder, Boston Celtics, Utah Jazz
League sources told The Tribune that Hayward and his agent, Mark Bartelstein, have agreed to help facilitate a sign-and-trade. Utah would sign Hayward to a new max deal, then send him to Boston in exchange for Crowder, who has just short of three years and $22 million remaining on his contract. – via Salt Lake Tribune
Trade, Gordon Hayward, Jae Crowder, Boston Celtics, Utah Jazz

I believe we'd still have to renounce Jerebko ( unless we can resign him at around the $5M he made last year) and Young to get the cap space to take back Hayward's salary.

but it does make it easier for sure.

I do wonder if Danny is kicking himself for already renouncing Kelly though?

one would think out of Kelly and Jerebko you would rather have Kelly back next year.

ah well....time will tell how it all works out I suppose

As of last night four teams were very interested in Kelly
Nets, Pacers, kings and one other. So he is going to land on his feet no matter what.

I have never seen a signing go so crazy in all the time i Have followed basketball.This is absolutely nuts. Sports idiots here are blaming the timing on his Player's Tribune post coming out. They said that the Tribune wanted to be the one to announce the trade??????Huh??? Danny would sit back on this???

How come Danny and Brad did not try to structure the deal so that the money was spread out differently? Back load years 2 and 3 to makeup the cap difference. Get him to take $2 million less this year.

Instead the Celtics are being asked to trade away a great contract that could be used in another deal given the holes in our frontline.

dboss

dboss wrote:How come Danny and Brad did not try to structure the deal so that the money was spread out differently?  Back load years 2 and 3 to makeup the cap difference.  Get him to take $2 million less this year.

Instead the Celtics are being asked to trade away a great contract that could be used in another deal given the holes in our frontline.

dboss

Back loaded contracts happen quite often, but not when a max contract is concerned. With a max contract, the starting point is determined by length of service and a couple other factors. Each subsequent year is based on the prior year, with a predetermined percent increase.

If the starting point was NOT based on the maximum, the total money over the length of the contract would be far less than the max.

Max + (Max x 1.04%) + [(Max x 1.04%) x 1.04%] . . .

gyso

Why don't we just do two sign and trades? They get KO and we get GH?

I am puzzled? What happened to all this money we supposedly had to be able to sign 2 max players this year. If we are scrambling to cut salaries and trade players just for Hayward, where was the money going to come for Paul George if they had been able to trade for him? Matching contracts to George we would have had to probably give up Crowder and Bradley?????

This whole thing is so darn confusing! Now, we do a sign and trade for Crowder to Utah, that contract does not match how are they able to do it??

How is Golden State able to sign Curry to that gigantic contract, sign Durant, keep Thompson and Green and then sign Iggy to $49 mill contract? The rich keep staying rich and the rest of the league struggles with new cap $ announced.

I will NEVER figure all this out!!!! How could we lose
Bradley, Smart and Rozier????Who backs up IT?
Who plays the 2 spot behind Hayward?? Jaylen???

Questions, questions questions. Too much for me
to think about. Just get it done so I can finally relax!

RosalieTCeltics wrote:I am puzzled? What happened to all this money we supposedly had to be able to sign 2 max players this year. If we are scrambling to cut salaries and trade players just for Hayward, where was the money going to come for Paul George if they had been able to trade for him? Matching contracts to George we would have had to probably give up Crowder and Bradley?????

This whole thing is so darn confusing! Now, we do a sign and trade for Crowder to Utah, that contract does not match how are they able to do it??

How is Golden State able to sign Curry to that gigantic contract, sign Durant, keep Thompson and Green and then sign Iggy to $49 mill contract? The rich keep staying rich and the rest of the league struggles with new cap $ announced.

I will NEVER figure all this out!!!! How could we lose
Bradley, Smart and Rozier????Who backs up IT?
Who plays the 2 spot behind Hayward?? Jaylen???

Questions, questions questions. Too much for me
to think about. Just get it done so I can finally relax!

Not sure we ever had money to sign two max FA's this off -season. The salary cap went down. The amount it went down is the amount we are short of signing Hayward. LAST summer he had all that money, but we used half of it on Horford.
We do not have to lose all those players, just one of them......

gyso wrote:

dboss wrote:How come Danny and Brad did not try to structure the deal so that the money was spread out differently?  Back load years 2 and 3 to makeup the cap difference.  Get him to take $2 million less this year.

Instead the Celtics are being asked to trade away a great contract that could be used in another deal given the holes in our frontline.

dboss

Back loaded contracts happen quite often, but not when a max contract is concerned.  With a max contract, the starting point is determined by length of service and a couple other factors.  Each subsequent year is based on the prior year, with a predetermined percent increase.

If the starting point was NOT based on the maximum, the total money over the length of the contract would be far less than the max.

Max + (Max x 1.04%) + [(Max x 1.04%) x 1.04%] . . .



gyso

This makes sense but gyso it brings up another question. Did AH sign a free agency max contract last year? If so it appears he falls into the structure that you reference. Sorry to be a pain in the ass but you have so much understanding of these things so I'm leaning on you to help me.

dboss

we NEVER had money for two max free agents and always only had enough space for one.....BARELY.

lots of people here said we did and even some so-called sports writers said it. but it was never true. some of us had pointed it out before and I think the standard line was always ( let Danny figure out the money).


there are websites to go to get the info today.

http://www.spotrac.com/nba/boston-celtics/cap/2017/

that one has GREAT info and stays updated it seems.

showing all holds that are on each teams caps as well (something hard to find on most sites).

the Celtics will cap hard capped out next year also now as far as any outside Free agents go. But Danny can go over the cap to re-sign his own free agents ( Thomas, Bradley, Smart) and we still have our draft picks right now also.

but Horford and Hayward ARE the big FA signings for this era of the Boston Celtics.

dboss wrote:

gyso wrote:

dboss wrote:How come Danny and Brad did not try to structure the deal so that the money was spread out differently?  Back load years 2 and 3 to makeup the cap difference.  Get him to take $2 million less this year.

Instead the Celtics are being asked to trade away a great contract that could be used in another deal given the holes in our frontline.

dboss

Back loaded contracts happen quite often, but not when a max contract is concerned.  With a max contract, the starting point is determined by length of service and a couple other factors.  Each subsequent year is based on the prior year, with a predetermined percent increase.

If the starting point was NOT based on the maximum, the total money over the length of the contract would be far less than the max.

Max + (Max x 1.04%) + [(Max x 1.04%) x 1.04%] . . .



gyso

This makes sense but gyso it brings up another question.  Did AH sign a free agency max contract last year?  If so it appears he falls into the structure that you reference.  Sorry to be a pain in the ass but you have so much understanding of these things so I'm leaning on you to help me.

dboss

I believe Horford signed a max contract last year.

gyso

Now I am the pain in the a... Gyso why was everyone so worked up when Paul George was traded to OKC? We could not have afforded him and Gordon Hayward, am
I right?? Or is this the difference between trading and just free agent signings?

RosalieTCeltics wrote:Now I am the pain in the a...   Gyso why was everyone so worked up when Paul George was traded to OKC? We could not have afforded him and Gordon Hayward, am
I right?? Or is this the difference between trading and just free agent signings?  

An ideal free agency signing happens when you sign a player and do nor have to part with any assets.  When you start adding up all the players to be renounced and then slicing a piece of your core away it tells us that DA was not really able to sign a max contract player in Hayward's category as an unrestricted free agents.  

Basically since Hayward has to now resign with Utah I do not consider his acquisition as a free agent signing.  I figured that even if we had the CAP space to sign him we would probably have moved Crowder but not in the same damn deal.  In many respects Crowder may represent our most attractive trading piece because the team that gets him is getting quality production at a locked-in bargain basement price.

Once a team puts themselves in a sign and trade situation they lose a lot of leverage.  

A part of this leaves a bad taste in my mouth and it has nothing to do with how good of a player Hayward is.  I think he is a hellava offensive upgrade.  In the end it is Crowder who is being moved.  I agreed with Crowder 100% about the lack of respect.  I thought Crowder handled it badly but he was spot on in his comments.  You do not cheer for the opposing players in most every circumstance.  The cheering Celtics fans knew that Hayward would be a possible replacement  at SF for Crowder.  

It is Ironic that Hayward is replacing Crowder and Danny is ready to use Crowder to facilitate that transaction.  It would be different if Crowder was traded elsewhere.  

dboss

RosalieTCeltics wrote:Now I am the pain in the a...   Gyso why was everyone so worked up when Paul George was traded to OKC? We could not have afforded him and Gordon Hayward, am
I right?? Or is this the difference between trading and just free agent signings?  

probably wasn't really going to happen, despite all the talk about it.

BELOW is just an example I am not saying should have or could have made either deal.

Danny MIGHT have been able to trade for Butler and Paul George because both players salarys were way below max . Salary cap rules also allow a team to take back more contract than they send out IN TRADES. I believe its 25% more or so.

as an example, if we send out $10M in salaries in a trade we can take back $12.5M or so.

I think George's salary is somewhere  around $19.5M and BUtler is in the $18.1M range

so both players would have cost about $37.6M more or less.

Hayward's max deal starts at $29M alone.

to get Butler and George is would have cost at least:
Crowder, Bradley, Zeller (before we cut him) and the #3 pick  (would have accounted for $29.2M) so one of Mickey, Jackson or Rozier would have made the number work.

of course we'd lose Tatum and probably 3 other future first round picks  as well.

kdp59 wrote:

RosalieTCeltics wrote:Now I am the pain in the a...   Gyso why was everyone so worked up when Paul George was traded to OKC? We could not have afforded him and Gordon Hayward, am
I right?? Or is this the difference between trading and just free agent signings?  

probably wasn't really going to happen, despite all the talk about it.

Danny MIGHT have been able to trade for Butler and Paul George because both players salarys were way below max . Salary cap rules also allow a team to take back more contract than they send out IN TRADES. I believe its 25% more or so.

as an example, if we send out $10M in salaries in a trade we can take back $12.5M or so.

I think George's salary is somewhere  around $19.5M and BUtler is in the $18.1M range

so both players would have cost about $37.6M more or less.

Hayward's max deal starts at $29M alone.

to get Butler and George is would have cost at least:
Crowder, Bradley, Zeller (before we cut him) and the #3 pick  (would have accounted for $29.2M) so one of Mickey, Jackson or Rozier would have made the number work.

of course we'd lose Tatum and probably 3 other future first round picks  as well.

Also I am not sure that would beat GS also given what they kept and what they added.

We however should have a fun and competitive team to cheer for.

dboss