Big man to trade for after Dec 14th?

I know we have yet to see Baynes or this team play yet, but it already seems inevitable to me that once Baynes is eligible to be traded Ainge will try to package him for either a younger/better big overall or more of a rim-protecting big man.

Does the board have any preferences?

Any big making more than 13.5 million is probably out of their price range with a package centered around the roughly 8-9 million Baynes, Yabusele, Nader and Theis (or yet to be determined 15th man) combine to make. This is assuming the C's do not wish to part with Ojeleye or Rozier. Any big man making under 8.5 million doesn't have to cost them Yabusele.

Some options are:

Tyson Chandler (13m) - 34 year old veteran rim-protector with 2 years left on his contract and prob that many years of usefulness, might not be worth Yabu

Nikola Vucevic (12.75m) - Similar rebounder/weak defender but much better offensive player than Baynes, pairs nicely w Horford, prob need to add 1st rd pick to the pckg

Kosta Koufos (8.3m) - Seems underused by Kings, 6p/5r/1s/1b guy in 18 mins is taller, bouncier and a better rim=protector than Baynes, similar at everything else

DeWayne Dedmon (6m) - Many here wanted him over Baynes back in July but C's were just too short on cash. Hawks are going nowhere so a swap of Baynes and a late 1st rd pick for him Dec-Feb once both are eligible to be traded could make sense to add a better rim-protector. Also wouldn't cost Yabu.

Aaron Baynes weak defender?

Bleed,

A 34 year old, due to turn 35 on October 2nd, is not worth a 20 year old with any skills at all.  In fact, Chandler will make $13.5M this year and next, about $27M total.  That means he will be under contract until he is 36.  His blocks/minute have taken a big hit in the last 2 years.  It would take a HUGE traded player exception for this trade for Yabu straight up assuming you were even willing to make it.  Thanks, but I'll pass.

Vucevic would interest me, although he is defensively challenged.  He fits with Horford because they can both play inside and outside, but he doesn't help him on defense much.  He can score but that's about it.  At 26 he fits Danny's timeline.

Koufos is a solid back up center, not impressive in any way.  I have to admit, I have never thought of Koufos as "bouncy".  Baynes, however, I have seen players bounce off of him.  Koufos' offense is on a par with Baynes', which is to say pnr-driven and clean up.  Coaches aren't calling plays for either one of them.  They rebound/minute at the same rate (they play about the same number of minutes too, so that's a legit comparision).  That's not much of an upgrade for the $3.7M difference between their salaries.  We need rim protection and beef.  Koufos isn't a better rim protector than Baynes and Baynes is a bully.  I'll pass again unless the price is very right.  I might even ask Sacto to sweeten the pot with a pick, not the other way around.

Dedmon might be interesting.  Not sure how that could work but his talent is what I'm looking for.


Is it just me, or are you awful eager to get rid of Baynes?  With the trade of Jae Crowder the Celtics Beef Brigade is Marcus Morris and Aron Baynes.  Get rid of Baynes without getting beef back and we're a team of feather dusters.

Some on this board think we should only carry 3 bigs.  I am of the opinion that should carry 4, so trading Baynes for another big, unless there is a clear upgrade in talent, is just doing a cha-cha.  I want Baynes PLUS another big, not instead of.

Our team is set up where we have expensive players (Horford, Kyrie, Hayward) and a lot of cheap players (a lot on rookie contracts or very reasonably priced like Baynes).  That means, to make a deal for players not including our big 3, we'd have to include many cheap players (more than any team is likely to have the roster space to absorb) and maybe picks.  Would you give up Smart or Tatum or Brown for Koufos?  If not, then you have to convince Sacto etal to take Nader, Yabby and the bottom of our bench and right now they aren't worth much because they've never laced up an NBA sneaker.

If we're trading Baynes for someone, and throwing in a pick, I'd say Jahlil Okafor. Not as good a defender but a much better offensive player and is definitely beef. If Brad can help Okafor find religion on defense then that would be an upgrade.


bob


.

I clearly think that we need a fourth big man before the season even starts, and if it seems that Baynes is not what we need then Ainge can look to trade him whenever.

The idea of only having three big men on the roster is fine against some opponents, but four big men against some other teams may still not be enough.  

Since Theis was signed, I have tried to watch as much game action on him as I could find (and, I have not found a whole lot), but he just does not look like he plays like a big man for the German team just as Jerebko was not a true big man for us last year even though he was 6'10.  With that said, I am almost positive that Theis will not be able to handle guys like Embiid, Howard, Drummond, etc that some teams still have on their rosters.  

Horford does not really handle those real big guys well either and Baynes has not played a whole heck of a lot of minutes his seasons in the NBA to help me think that he can play 30 quality minutes per game.  

For all of these reasons, another big guy is needed by the beginning of training camp/immediately.  It is not like we were anything but 26th in the league in rebounding last season with a taller roster.  And yes, I know that size does not always equal rebounding success as I have written it many times myself on this forum.

Koufos should not be an option from Sacramento, but Cauley-Stein could be as he is better, younger, and cheaper than Koufos.

bobheckler wrote:Bleed,

A 34 year old, due to turn 35 on October 2nd, is not worth a 20 year old with any skills at all.  In fact, Chandler will make $13.5M this year and next, about $27M total.  That means he will be under contract until he is 36.  His blocks/minute have taken a big hit in the last 2 years.  It would take a HUGE traded player exception for this trade for Yabu straight up assuming you were even willing to make it.  Thanks, but I'll pass.

Vucevic would interest me, although he is defensively challenged.  He fits with Horford because they can both play inside and outside, but he doesn't help him on defense much.  He can score but that's about it.  At 26 he fits Danny's timeline.

Koufos is a solid back up center, not impressive in any way.  I have to admit, I have never thought of Koufos as "bouncy".  Baynes, however, I have seen players bounce off of him.  Koufos' offense is on a par with Baynes', which is to say pnr-driven and clean up.  Coaches aren't calling plays for either one of them.  They rebound/minute at the same rate (they play about the same number of minutes too, so that's a legit comparision).  That's not much of an upgrade for the $3.7M difference between their salaries.  We need rim protection and beef.  Koufos isn't a better rim protector than Baynes and Baynes is a bully.  I'll pass again unless the price is very right.  I might even ask Sacto to sweeten the pot with a pick, not the other way around.

Dedmon might be interesting.  Not sure how that could work but his talent is what I'm looking for.


Is it just me, or are you awful eager to get rid of Baynes?  With the trade of Jae Crowder the Celtics Beef Brigade is Marcus Morris and Aron Baynes.  Get rid of Baynes without getting beef back and we're a team of feather dusters.

Some on this board think we should only carry 3 bigs.  I am of the opinion that should carry 4, so trading Baynes for another big, unless there is a clear upgrade in talent, is just doing a cha-cha.  I want Baynes PLUS another big, not instead of.

Our team is set up where we have expensive players (Horford, Kyrie, Hayward) and a lot of cheap players (a lot on rookie contracts or very reasonably priced like Baynes).  That means, to make a deal for players not including our big 3, we'd have to include many cheap players (more than any team is likely to have the roster space to absorb) and maybe picks.  Would you give up Smart or Tatum or Brown for Koufos?  If not, then you have to convince Sacto etal to take Nader, Yabby and the bottom of our bench and right now they aren't worth much because they've never laced up an NBA sneaker.

If we're trading Baynes for someone, and throwing in a pick, I'd say Jahlil Okafor.  Not as good a defender but a much better offensive player and is definitely beef.  If Brad can help Okafor find religion on defense then that would be an upgrade.


bob


.

Bob,

Philly seems intent on hanging on to Okafor.  I'm a fan, however, and think he has a bright future.  I think his offensive capabilities could be a big plus. Defensively, he could be stronger, but he's no matador either.

Inviting speculation; I wonder what it might take to pry him loose?

Regards

Bleedgreen so you want to trade Baynes and thrown in a late first rounder to get a backup center. I would think that we would want to see how Baynes plays first before designating him for the trading block.

There is only one reason that Boston could use a third center. It is called depth and that probably would only come into play if Horford or Baynes was injured.

Let's take a closer look at the minutes. Theoretically there are 48 minutes allocated to the center position. Last year Al averaged 32 MPG. One could argue that Amir was the center but that would be a tough sell. One could argue that KO was a center but he clearly was a stretch 4.

Al is our center and we are going to need another 16 MPG to back him up.

Baynes averaged 16 MPG last year. 32 + 16 = 48.

Aside from the obvious distribution of minutes I expect the Celtics to play small at center. This may include any of our 6' 9" Power Forwards (Morris, Theis and Yabu)

I do not think Boston is the least bit concerned with Drumond or Howard.

Last year Tristan Thompson played 29 minutes per game. Can anyone tell me how many other centers played and how many minutes.

OK forget the Cavs. The Golden State Warriors used two centers last year. ZaZa who averages 15 MPG and McGee who averaged 10 mpg. That is 25 minutes at center and we already know the reason for that. Golden State is in fact the ultimate small ball team with Draymond Green playing center.

It is a new era.

Worried about rebounding? Guess what...adding a 3rd center will not do jack for this team because a 3rd center like the ones mentioned are not a good fit for this team.

Nikola Vucevic is the best of the bunch as far as rebounding goes but Danny is unlikely to spend $12.5 million on a backup center and Vucevic cannot shoot from distance.

I would like to see Danny wait to get a better feel for how this team plays. As I have stated before he may need to go get another shooter for his rotation.

dboss

Seriously?

Baynes has not played a single game for the Celtics and he should already be traded?

Fantasy basketball?

we already have a guy who has played center in the NBA for over 10 years now.

I am still amazed by people who think Horford is a PF. He's never been and certainly won't ever be one in today's NBA and his advancing age.

I suppose Horford is not the typical Center those fans want and they hope for someone more to their liking. Obviously Horford is the center that Danny and Brad wanted though.

Baynes is a solid NBA back up center as well. Played at SA backing up Duncan before going to Detriot as a FA. he played 4 years on Europe before joining the Spurs.

I'm not sure what more a Celtic fan wants on the roster for center today?
we have a near/all-star player and a solid backup.

Keeping Zizic would have nice as a young project to groom, I suppose.

Personally, I would be more concerned with a backup at PF. after Morris we are counting on Theis or Yabusele for depth.

international wrote:Aaron Baynes weak defender?

Yes

fierce wrote:Seriously?

Baynes has not played a single game for the Celtics and he should already be traded?

Fantasy basketball?

He cannot be traded until the middle of December, but yes I am predicting that the Celtics will eventually move him for a better big man who fits their timeline better than a soon to be 31 year old on a one year deal.

It makes a lot more sense than a capped out team letting him walk or resigning him for his age 32 and beyond seasons when he will be in decline. If Danny can get a better big man he will.

kdp59 wrote:we already have a guy who has played center in the NBA for over 10 years now.

I am still amazed by people who think Horford is a PF. He's never been and certainly won't ever be one in today's NBA and his advancing age.

I suppose Horford is not the typical Center those fans want and they hope for someone more to their liking.  Obviously Horford is the center that Danny and Brad wanted though.

Baynes is a solid NBA back up center as well. Played at SA backing up Duncan before going to Detriot as a FA.  he played 4 years on Europe before joining the Spurs.

I'm not sure what more a Celtic fan wants on the roster for center today?
we have a near/all-star player and a solid backup.

Keeping Zizic would have nice as a young project to groom, I suppose.

Personally, I  would be more concerned with a backup at PF. after Morris we are counting on Theis or Yabusele for depth.

Adding a center who can play 18-22 minutes at the expense of Baynes (who really shouldn't be counted on for more than 12-14) would allow Horford to play 6-10 more minutes at PF each game and alleviate the depth concerns there.

bobheckler wrote:Bleed,

A 34 year old, due to turn 35 on October 2nd, is not worth a 20 year old with any skills at all.  In fact, Chandler will make $13.5M this year and next, about $27M total.  That means he will be under contract until he is 36.  His blocks/minute have taken a big hit in the last 2 years.  It would take a HUGE traded player exception for this trade for Yabu straight up assuming you were even willing to make it.  Thanks, but I'll pass.

Vucevic would interest me, although he is defensively challenged.  He fits with Horford because they can both play inside and outside, but he doesn't help him on defense much.  He can score but that's about it.  At 26 he fits Danny's timeline.

Koufos is a solid back up center, not impressive in any way.  I have to admit, I have never thought of Koufos as "bouncy".  Baynes, however, I have seen players bounce off of him.  Koufos' offense is on a par with Baynes', which is to say pnr-driven and clean up.  Coaches aren't calling plays for either one of them.  They rebound/minute at the same rate (they play about the same number of minutes too, so that's a legit comparision).  That's not much of an upgrade for the $3.7M difference between their salaries.  We need rim protection and beef.  Koufos isn't a better rim protector than Baynes and Baynes is a bully.  I'll pass again unless the price is very right.  I might even ask Sacto to sweeten the pot with a pick, not the other way around.

Dedmon might be interesting.  Not sure how that could work but his talent is what I'm looking for.


Is it just me, or are you awful eager to get rid of Baynes?  With the trade of Jae Crowder the Celtics Beef Brigade is Marcus Morris and Aron Baynes.  Get rid of Baynes without getting beef back and we're a team of feather dusters.

Some on this board think we should only carry 3 bigs.  I am of the opinion that should carry 4, so trading Baynes for another big, unless there is a clear upgrade in talent, is just doing a cha-cha.  I want Baynes PLUS another big, not instead of.

Our team is set up where we have expensive players (Horford, Kyrie, Hayward) and a lot of cheap players (a lot on rookie contracts or very reasonably priced like Baynes).  That means, to make a deal for players not including our big 3, we'd have to include many cheap players (more than any team is likely to have the roster space to absorb) and maybe picks.  Would you give up Smart or Tatum or Brown for Koufos?  If not, then you have to convince Sacto etal to take Nader, Yabby and the bottom of our bench and right now they aren't worth much because they've never laced up an NBA sneaker.

If we're trading Baynes for someone, and throwing in a pick, I'd say Jahlil Okafor.  Not as good a defender but a much better offensive player and is definitely beef.  If Brad can help Okafor find religion on defense then that would be an upgrade.


bob

Agree that Chandler is probably too old and expensive. It would need to be something like Baynes, Yabu, Nader and Larkin for Chandler and Ulis to make the $ work. No traded player exception needed. But probably too much to give for such an old and declining player, even if he were able to provide the 2011-2013 Kevin Garnett type of veteran defensive presence I think he still could. Also, Yabu is 22 in December, he's not a 20 year old. I hope he and Baynes play well enough to not be subjected to a bunch of trade rumors come 2018 but time will only tell.

I like the Okafor idea, even if he is just a Greg Monroe/Al Jefferson type 6'11" old school offense only big he is still more valuable than Baynes and a late pick. I doubt the Sixers move him to an in-division rival for that paltry return though.

BleedGreen wrote:

fierce wrote:Seriously?

Baynes has not played a single game for the Celtics and he should already be traded?

Fantasy basketball?

He cannot be traded until the middle of December, but yes I am predicting that the Celtics will eventually move him for a better big man who fits their timeline better than a soon to be 31 year old on a one year deal.

It makes a lot more sense than a capped out team letting him walk or resigning him for his age 32 and beyond seasons when he will be in decline. If Danny can get a better big man he will.

Doesn't make sense to me because we have yet to see Baynes play for the Celtics.

What if Baynes plays well for the Celts?

Will you still trade him just because he doesn't fit the timeline?

fierce wrote:What if Baynes plays well for the Celts?

Will you still trade him just because he doesn't fit the timeline?

Isaiah Thomas, Jae Crowder and Avery Bradley must not have played well for the Celtics because Danny decided to trade them.

BleedGreen wrote:

fierce wrote:What if Baynes plays well for the Celts?

Will you still trade him just because he doesn't fit the timeline?

Isaiah Thomas, Jae Crowder and Avery Bradley must not have played well for the Celtics because Danny decided to trade them.

There's a big difference between trading players we already know what they can do and a player who has yet to play a single game for the Celts.

Reason why IT, Jae, and AB got traded is because they're not good enough as starters in the long run.

Hayward and Kyrie are huge upgrades over those 3 players traded.

As for Baynes, he's only a backup Center.
A decent backup Center is good enough if he gets the job done.
Why trade him if he gets the job done?

Like I said, it doesn't make sense trading a player who has yet to play a single game for the Celts.

Ainge and the Celts must have seen something they like in Baynes.
Otherwise they wouldn't have signed him in the first place.

Anyone and everyone is subject to being traded.

However the notion that Baynes can be flipped in December for....and...is unlikely.

At some point in the next 1-2 years Danny will need to add a highend big.  It could come in the draft or result of a trade.

Dboss

dboss wrote:Anyone and everyone is subject to being traded.

However the notion that Baynes can be flipped in December for....and...is unlikely.

At some point in the bext 1-2 years Danny will need to add a highend big.  It could come in the draft or result of a trade.

Dboss

True!

It's like back in the summer of 2014 when a Celtic fan wanted Ainge to give Toby Harris or Greg Monroe or both max contracts so that Ainge can flip them later.

Crazy idea.

fierce wrote:

BleedGreen wrote:

fierce wrote:What if Baynes plays well for the Celts?

Will you still trade him just because he doesn't fit the timeline?

Isaiah Thomas, Jae Crowder and Avery Bradley must not have played well for the Celtics because Danny decided to trade them.

There's a big difference between trading players we already know what they can do and a player who has yet to play a single game for the Celts.

Reason why IT, Jae, and AB got traded is because they're not good enough as starters in the long run.

Hayward and Kyrie are huge upgrades over those 3 players traded.

As for Baynes, he's only a backup Center.
A decent backup Center is good enough if he gets the job done.
Why trade him if he gets the job done?

Like I said, it doesn't make sense trading a player who has yet to play a single game for the Celts.

Ainge and the Celts must have seen something they like in Baynes.
Otherwise they wouldn't have signed him in the first place.

Baynes was the best player Danny could sign with a 4.3m exception the team was handcuffed by.

Why keep saying, "it makes no sense to trade a player who hasn't played a game for this team" when we all know Danny will trade anyone just to improve a little bit and especially if it moves a 30+ guy for a better player in the Irving-Hayward age range.

Baynes will have played 2-4 months before actually being dealt, if he is at all. Yeah maybe he plays out this contract. But he is what he is as a limited bench big. If a better big the C's could not afford this summer for $ reasons is on the market after Baynes is eligible to be traded you bet Danny will make the necessary phone calls. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly does not know this GM or the goals of this franchise to gel this year and really excel in 2018-19. Baynes hardly fits that time frame, he's a stopgap solution as dboss said.

BleedGreen wrote:

fierce wrote:

BleedGreen wrote:

fierce wrote:What if Baynes plays well for the Celts?

Will you still trade him just because he doesn't fit the timeline?

Isaiah Thomas, Jae Crowder and Avery Bradley must not have played well for the Celtics because Danny decided to trade them.

There's a big difference between trading players we already know what they can do and a player who has yet to play a single game for the Celts.

Reason why IT, Jae, and AB got traded is because they're not good enough as starters in the long run.

Hayward and Kyrie are huge upgrades over those 3 players traded.

As for Baynes, he's only a backup Center.
A decent backup Center is good enough if he gets the job done.
Why trade him if he gets the job done?

Like I said, it doesn't make sense trading a player who has yet to play a single game for the Celts.

Ainge and the Celts must have seen something they like in Baynes.
Otherwise they wouldn't have signed him in the first place.

Baynes was the best player Danny could sign with a 4.3m exception the team was handcuffed by.

Why keep saying, "it makes no sense to trade a player who hasn't played a game for this team" when we all know Danny will trade anyone just to improve a little bit and especially if it moves a 30+ guy for a better player in the Irving-Hayward age range.

Baynes will have played 2-4 months before actually being dealt, if he is at all. Yeah maybe he plays out this contract. But he is what he is as a limited bench big. If a better big the C's could not afford this summer for $ reasons is on the market after Baynes is eligible to be traded you bet Danny will make the necessary phone calls. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly does not know this GM or the goals of this franchise to gel this year and really excel in 2018-19. Baynes hardly fits that time frame, he's a stopgap solution as dboss said.

dboss also said Baynes getting traded in December is unlikely.

BG

So if Baynes plays well you will still trade him?

fierce wrote:BG

So if Baynes plays well you will still trade him?

That obviously depends on what is coming back.

Baynes is what he is entering his age 31 season. He is just exiting his prime as shown by slightly decreasing his productivity from his age 28 and 29 years 2014-16. He was a 15 minute, 6 point, 4.5 rebound, 0.5 block 17 PER 4 win share big those years before seeing all those numbers decrease just a tic last year with a 13 PER and 3 win shares. He is rooted to the ground and useful in small spurts but basically just a tougher, slower, Zeller who adds a bit in the rebounding dept at the expense of a little offense.

So yes, if the Celtics watch him play for 2-4 months, and he plays well, which is his 2014-16 stats, nothing more than that except maybe the slightest increase in those can be expected best case scenario, then of course he can still be moved for a better big man.

February is the most likely time to deal. While I changed my mind and wouldn't trade him for old man Tyson Chandler anymore, or a player who is barely better like Koufos (if Baynes is playing well), a player like Vucevic who is 4 years younger, signed 1 year longer and is far more productive at everything Baynes does well (even rebounding) while having the same weakness (rim-protection) would be a move Danny would have to strongly consider if the C's can make the cash work and not have to give up too much in terms of picks or a young player.

The Celtics will not add a starting level center this year.  DA had opportunities to target a big during this off season.

Baynes is no one special but Boston has completely abandoned the traditional center in favor of more wings.

As the season progesses we will have a better feel for team needs.

I do not see Boston going after any of the centers mentioned.

With an open roster spot adding a big seems to be a logical addition but we do not know what Danny wants.

Dboss

dboss wrote:The Celtics will not add a starting level center this year.  DA had opportunities to target a big during this off season.

Baynes is no one special but Boston has completely abandoned the traditional center in favor of more wings.

As the season progesses we will have a better feel for team needs.

I do not see Boston going after any of the centers mentioned.

With an open roster spot adding a big seems to be a logical addition but we do not know what Danny wants.

Dboss

I think it would be unwise to speak in absolutes about that. Stick to saying, "it is unlikely".

Danny really didn't have opportunities to add a starting big this summer when all he had was the 4.3m exception after signing Hayward and the lower cap forcing him to trade Bradley (who at least netted a 3-4 forward). All he had were unproven young players making a couple million assuming he wasn't going to part with Tatum, Smart or Brown and was saving IT and Jae for adding the first real star that came on the market. Hard to make the $ work for a big until Baynes is eligible to be traded.

BleedGreen wrote:

dboss wrote:The Celtics will not add a starting level center this year.  DA had opportunities to target a big during this off season.

Baynes is no one special but Boston has completely abandoned the traditional center in favor of more wings.

As the season progesses we will have a better feel for team needs.

I do not see Boston going after any of the centers mentioned.

With an open roster spot adding a big seems to be a logical addition but we do not know what Danny wants.

Dboss

I think it would be unwise to speak in absolutes about that. Stick to saying, "it is unlikely".

Danny really didn't have opportunities to add a starting big this summer when all he had was the 4.3m exception after signing Hayward and the lower cap forcing him to trade Bradley (who at least netted a 3-4 forward). All he had were unproven young players making a couple million assuming he wasn't going to part with Tatum, Smart or Brown and was saving IT and Jae for adding the first real star that came on the market. Hard to make the $ work for a big until Baynes is eligible to be traded.

No "starting " centers will be available anyway ...and if by some strange thing one is........would they be affordable?

ain't happening PERIOD !

Of course what is the definition of a "starting" center? So very few teams have "true" centers anyway.

beat