Re: Big man to trade for after Dec 14th?

by **BleedGreen** Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:02 am

beat wrote:
BleedGreen wrote:
dboss wrote:The Celtics will not add a starting level center this year. DA had opportunities to target a big during this off season.

Baynes is no one special but Boston has completely abandoned the traditional center in favor of more wings.

As the season progesses we will have a better feel for team needs.

I do not see Boston going after any of the centers mentioned.

With an open roster spot adding a big seems to be a logical addition but we do not know what Danny wants.

Dboss

I think it would be unwise to speak in absolutes about that. Stick to saying, "it is unlikely".

Danny really didn't have opportunities to add a starting big this summer when all he had was the 4.3m exception after signing Hayward and the lower cap forcing him to trade Bradley (who at least netted a 3-4 forward). All he had were unproven young players making a couple million assuming he wasn't going to part with Tatum, Smart or Brown and was saving IT and Jae for adding the first real star that came on the market. Hard to make the $ work for a big until Baynes is eligible to be traded.

No "starting " centers will be available anyway ...and if by some strange thing one is........would they be affordable?

ain't happening PERIOD !

Of course what is the definition of a "starting" center? So very few teams have "true" centers anyway.

beat

Vucevic is a guy many who follow the NBA for a living predict will be moved this year. He's started 338 of 399 career games and turns 27 in Oct.

While he does not add great rim-protection, which the C's would desire in a quality big they'd pay 12+ mil to and expect to start, he does pretty much everything else well, and all of it much better than Baynes and is 4 years younger.

His career #'s per 36 mins are 17.5p, 12r, 2.5a, 1s, 1b, 51% FG and 72% FT's, an outstanding 19.3 PER and an avg of 5+ win shares in his 5 full seasons (for comparison sake Olynyk averaged just under 4 win shares in 4 seasons on a team that won way more games and had a PER of 15.7). Vucevic is just entering his prime in the exact age range with Kyrie and Hayward that Ainge would be interested in. He even started adding a 3 point shot last year, going 23-75 after just going 7-26 across his other 5 seasons.

Even at only the 18-22 minutes Olynyk was given, Vucevic would be a big help to this team and a huge upgrade to Baynes (yes even before we have seen Baynes play 1 game). If Danny can pull a trade for him come 2018 it would represent the type of upgrade in the frontcourt I'm hoping for. The Magic still owe Biyombo a TON of cash and are unlikely to keep Vucevic past his summer of 2019 free agency, so the longer he stays on that team the less value he has to them.

by **bobheckler** Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:45 pm

BleedGreen wrote:
beat wrote:
BleedGreen wrote:
dboss wrote:The Celtics will not add a starting level center this year. DA had opportunities to target a big during this off season.

Baynes is no one special but Boston has completely abandoned the traditional center in favor of more wings.

As the season progesses we will have a better feel for team needs.

I do not see Boston going after any of the centers mentioned.

With an open roster spot adding a big seems to be a logical addition but we do not know what Danny wants.

Dboss

I think it would be unwise to speak in absolutes about that. Stick to saying, "it is unlikely".

Danny really didn't have opportunities to add a starting big this summer when all he had was the 4.3m exception after signing Hayward and the lower cap forcing him to trade Bradley (who at least netted a 3-4 forward). All he had were unproven young players making a couple million assuming he wasn't going to part with Tatum, Smart or Brown and was saving IT and Jae for adding the first real star that came on the market. Hard to make the $ work for a big until Baynes is eligible to be traded.

No "starting " centers will be available anyway ...and if by some strange thing one is........would they be affordable?

ain't happening PERIOD !

Of course what is the definition of a "starting" center? So very few teams have "true" centers anyway.

beat

Vucevic is a guy many who follow the NBA for a living predict will be moved this year. He's started 338 of 399 career games and turns 27 in Oct.

While he does not add great rim-protection, which the C's would desire in a quality big they'd pay 12+ mil to and expect to start, he does pretty much everything else well, and all of it much better than Baynes and is 4 years younger.

His career #'s per 36 mins are 17.5p, 12r, 2.5a, 1s, 1b, 51% FG and 72% FT's, an outstanding 19.3 PER and an avg of 5+ win shares in his 5 full seasons (for comparison sake Olynyk averaged just under 4 win shares in 4 seasons on a team that won way more games and had a PER of 15.7). Vucevic is just entering his prime in the exact age range with Kyrie and Hayward that Ainge would be interested in. He even started adding a 3 point shot last year, going 23-75 after just going 7-26 across his other 5 seasons.

Even at only the 18-22 minutes Olynyk was given, Vucevic would be a big help to this team and a huge upgrade to Baynes (yes even before we have seen Baynes play 1 game). If Danny can pull a trade for him come 2018 it would represent the type of upgrade in the frontcourt I'm hoping for. The Magic still owe Biyombo a TON of cash and are unlikely to keep Vucevic past his summer of 2019 free agency, so the longer he stays on that team the less value he has to them.

Bleed,

At $12.5M/year Vucevic is a steal in today's NBA. Also, he's only about to turn 27, so he fits Danny's "timeline" too.

My concern with Vucevic is his defense. If you look at his offensive and defensive ratings for his career he is roughly breakeven, maybe a bit to the plus side, but nothing awesome. That's not good considering offense is his calling card. With the loss of Bradley, Amir, Jonas and Jae I'm already concerned about our defense. Yes, we have Rozier to replace AB (we hope), Morris to replace Amir (we hope), Theis to replace Jonas (we hope) but I feel we definitely got weaker on defense overall. I don't see Vucevic repairing that. This is one reason why I wasn't happy about giving up the Nets pick for Kyrie. We could have gotten Bamba or Bagley. Instead we have to hope the Lakers suck bad enough to be 2-5 (but no worse nor better) or that Sacto still sucks the year after next (and will the 2019 draft as deep as the 2018 will be?). A lot of conditions clouding success.

Vucevic would start alongside Horford, he would not be a 20mpg off-the-bench player. He would get 25-30mpg.

Bigs

Starters - Horford, Vucevic
Bench - Baynes

Swings
Theis, Morris, Ojelaye

Wings

Starters - Hayward, Brown (penciled in)
Bench - Tatum, Nader

Ball Handlers

Starters - Irving
Bench - Smart, Rozier, Larkin

This assumes, erroneously of course, that nobody leaves in the trade for Vucevic. We just don't know who that would be.

I'm thinking Bogut, or a real short-term rental, is more likely for the 15th spot.

bob

.

by **wideclyde** Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:03 pm

Bob,

If Bogut is healthy, I like him as well as he has been a pretty good 15-20 minute player at a position that I think that we need a guy when healthy.

by **swish** Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:31 pm

And who of equal value do the Celtics give up to match Vucevics 12 mil dollar salary ?

swish

by **BleedGreen** Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:59 pm

swish wrote:And who of equal value do the Celtics give up to match Vucevics 12 mil dollar salary ?

swish

Read/research the new CBA incoming/outgoing salary conditions. The Celtics do not have to come close to matching his salary to make a trade.

by **dboss** Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:56 pm

BleedGreen wrote:
dboss wrote:The Celtics will not add a starting level center this year. DA had opportunities to target a big during this off season.

Baynes is no one special but Boston has completely abandoned the traditional center in favor of more wings.

As the season progesses we will have a better feel for team needs.

I do not see Boston going after any of the centers mentioned.

With an open roster spot adding a big seems to be a logical addition but we do not know what Danny wants.

Dboss

I think it would be unwise to speak in absolutes about that. Stick to saying, "it is unlikely".

Danny really didn't have opportunities to add a starting big this summer when all he had was the 4.3m exception after signing Hayward and the lower cap forcing him to trade Bradley (who at least netted a 3-4 forward). All he had were unproven young players making a couple million assuming he wasn't going to part with Tatum, Smart or Brown and was saving IT and Jae for adding the first real star that came on the market. Hard to make the $ work for a big until Baynes is eligible to be traded.

Stick to your own opinion and I will stick to mine.

The Celtics added a starting center last year. He is a max contract. The Celtics will not add another starting center this year. The reason why this will not happen is because we do not need one. Surely you should be able to see that.

They may add another backup center but I do not see them doing that either for the reasons I have already shared.

Dboss

by **BleedGreen** Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:13 am

dboss wrote:

Stick to your own opinion and I will stick to mine.

The Celtics added a starting center last year. He is a max contract. The Celtics will not add another starting center this year. The reason why this will not happen is because we do not need one. Surely you should be able to see that.

They may add another backup center but I do not see them doing that either for the reasons I have already shared.

Dboss

Surely you should be able to understand that saying Danny Ainge will 100% not be adding a starting caliber center is an unwise statement to make and phrasing it as "highly unlikely" is the better course of action?

You are entitled to your opinion that Ainge will not try to add any of the centers I mentioned, only one of whom is currently worthy of being called a starter, or even another backup or big man unmentioned in this thread. That's fine. But it is an opinion, not a fact. You disagree that he will try to upgrade from a limited role 10-15 min per game backup that the almost 31 year old Baynes proved himself to be in his age 26-30 prime to a guy capable of playing more like 20-25 mins and possibly starting. Great. I feel Baynes becomes trade bait the moment his 4.3m contract becomes eligible to be moved on 12/15. Whether Danny will try to upgrade him or not is unknown at this time, as is Baynes fit with this team before he plays one game. But what we do know is that Danny is ALWAYS looking to better the team and will do so as he sees fit.

Any big man upgrade he he'd swap Baynes out for would not player starter minutes, even if he does start to benefit Horford from having to bang with bigs down low and worry about being outrebounded right from the opening tip. We all know that is a concern. Such a player would be asked to play 20-22 mins a game like Olynyk and Amir each did the past two seasons. If such a player starts over Marcus Morris we all know that Morris and Smart would still be getting more minutes per game than him off the bench.

by **BleedGreen** Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:37 am

Look at the Golden State Warriors, a team Ainge and Stevens clearly have their eyes on and wish to be able to compete with the next several years.

During the 2014-16 seasons when they won a title and had the 73 win team they started Bogut next to Draymond Green but he only played 22-23 minutes a game. Last year Zaza Pachulia started all 70 games he appeared in but averaged just 18 mins a game. Iguadala came off the bench and played around 26 minutes a game. When Green, their do-everything 2-way PF-C who is to them what Horford is to us moved to center, the Warriors originally had Harrison Barnes moving up to PF. Barnes is like Morris in a lot of ways and only grabbed 5 boards per 30 mins, just like Morris would likely do (or Hayward or Tatum until he gets stronger and more experienced). That made a legit center sized big capable of playing alongside Green (who is a MUCH better rebounder than Horford is to begin with) a big part of their rotation. Last year they swapped out Barnes for Durant and became even more scary.

Baynes can bang and board but is smaller and less talented than both Bogut and Zaza were from 2014-17. This is why I think and upgrade would be ideal for this team to become truly contender elite. It is not hard to see this and yet posters here are saying we do not need such a player? Huh?

Someone like Vucevic, or possibly even Koufos or Dedmon or a few others not mentioned could fill that role. If such a player became available to be traded for come Jan or Feb you'd have to think Danny would not pass on an opportunity to improve. We're not talking adding a 23 mil starter like Marc Gasol, but a 7-12m guy who can play 20-22 minutes in the Bogut/ZaZa role. It would undoubtedly make these Celtics a better team.

by **BleedGreen** Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:38 am

The Magic are currently paying Biyombo 17 million a year to be Vucevic's backup. Just b/c this team signed Horford to a max contract it does not mean they are limited to only having 2-4 million dollar 10-15 min a game bigs like Baynes on the roster from now on. They paid 30 million for Amir, Zeller, Jerebko and Olynyk last season while also paying Horford max $.

by **fierce** Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:33 am

BleedGreen wrote:Look at the Golden State Warriors, a team Ainge and Stevens clearly have their eyes on and wish to be able to compete with the next several years.

During the 2014-16 seasons when they won a title and had the 73 win team they started Bogut next to Draymond Green but he only played 22-23 minutes a game. Last year Zaza Pachulia started all 70 games he appeared in but averaged just 18 mins a game. Iguadala came off the bench and played around 26 minutes a game. When Green, their do-everything 2-way PF-C who is to them what Horford is to us moved to center, the Warriors originally had Harrison Barnes moving up to PF. Barnes is like Morris in a lot of ways and only grabbed 5 boards per 30 mins, just like Morris would likely do (or Hayward or Tatum until he gets stronger and more experienced). That made a legit center sized big capable of playing alongside Green (who is a MUCH better rebounder than Horford is to begin with) a big part of their rotation. Last year they swapped out Barnes for Durant and became even more scary.

Baynes can bang and board but is smaller and less talented than both Bogut and Zaza were from 2014-17. This is why I think and upgrade would be ideal for this team to become truly contender elite. It is not hard to see this and yet posters here are saying we do not need such a player? Huh?

Someone like Vucevic, or possibly even Koufos or Dedmon or a few others not mentioned could fill that role. If such a player became available to be traded for come Jan or Feb you'd have to think Danny would not pass on an opportunity to improve. We're not talking adding a 23 mil starter like Marc Gasol, but a 7-12m guy who can play 20-22 minutes in the Bogut/ZaZa role. It would undoubtedly make these Celtics a better team.

But you said that it's inevitable Ainge would flip Baynes once he's eligible to be traded in DECEMBER!

Now you're saying it's Jan. or Feb?

by **fierce** Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:40 am

DeWayne Dedmon (6m) - Many here wanted him over Baynes back in July but C's were just too short on cash. Hawks are going nowhere so a swap of Baynes and a late 1st rd pick for him Dec-Feb once both are eligible to be traded could make sense to add a better rim-protector. Also wouldn't cost Yabu.

Both Dedmon and Baynes are backup Centers.

Why would the Celts waste a 1st rounder on a backup Center who's only slightly better than Baynes?

It's not like Baynes or Dedmon will be playing in the last 2 minutes of every playoff game.

They're just backup Centers, they won't make or break your season.

by **BleedGreen** Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:49 am

fierce wrote:
BleedGreen wrote:Look at the Golden State Warriors, a team Ainge and Stevens clearly have their eyes on and wish to be able to compete with the next several years.

During the 2014-16 seasons when they won a title and had the 73 win team they started Bogut next to Draymond Green but he only played 22-23 minutes a game. Last year Zaza Pachulia started all 70 games he appeared in but averaged just 18 mins a game. Iguadala came off the bench and played around 26 minutes a game. When Green, their do-everything 2-way PF-C who is to them what Horford is to us moved to center, the Warriors originally had Harrison Barnes moving up to PF. Barnes is like Morris in a lot of ways and only grabbed 5 boards per 30 mins, just like Morris would likely do (or Hayward or Tatum until he gets stronger and more experienced). That made a legit center sized big capable of playing alongside Green (who is a MUCH better rebounder than Horford is to begin with) a big part of their rotation. Last year they swapped out Barnes for Durant and became even more scary.

Baynes can bang and board but is smaller and less talented than both Bogut and Zaza were from 2014-17. This is why I think and upgrade would be ideal for this team to become truly contender elite. It is not hard to see this and yet posters here are saying we do not need such a player? Huh?

Someone like Vucevic, or possibly even Koufos or Dedmon or a few others not mentioned could fill that role. If such a player became available to be traded for come Jan or Feb you'd have to think Danny would not pass on an opportunity to improve. We're not talking adding a 23 mil starter like Marc Gasol, but a 7-12m guy who can play 20-22 minutes in the Bogut/ZaZa role. It would undoubtedly make these Celtics a better team.

But you said that it's inevitable Ainge would flip Baynes once he's eligible to be traded in DECEMBER!

Now you're saying it's Jan. or Feb?

Clearly you have been triggered.

Obviously Dec is the first month he can be traded contractually and Feb the last month b/c of the deadline, so a Baynes trade would be anywhere in that 10 week range. Most likely Jan or Feb. That's how trades work in the NBA.

by **wideclyde** Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:08 am

fierce,

I have to disagree with your thoughts that a backup center cannot make or break a season, but I do agree that trading a back up center and a first round pick for another back up center is not a good idea.

Yes, the back up center is not going to be in the game for the last two minutes of a playoff game, but he can definitely decide many games (regular and playoff) by what he does (or, does not do) in his minutes on the court. I believe that a back up center can be worth at least several games per year and then perhaps one game in each playoff series with good quality play in the minutes he gets.

by **BleedGreen** Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:12 am

wideclyde wrote:fierce,

I have to disagree with your thoughts that a backup center cannot make or break a season, but I do agree that trading a back up center and a first round pick for another back up center is not a good idea.

Yes, the back up center is not going to be in the game for the last two minutes of a playoff game, but he can definitely decide many games (regular and playoff) by what he does (or, does not do) in his minutes on the court. I believe that a back up center can be worth at least several games per year and then perhaps one game in each playoff series with good quality play in the minutes he gets.

Great post. I agree.

Also, if Boston is heading towards pick #28 or 29 in the draft and the backup center is an 18-22 minute a game guy under the age of 30 they may want to keep for a few years over the 31 year old 12-14 min per game Baynes on a yr contract then they might throw in the pick.

by **fierce** Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:38 am

wideclyde wrote:fierce,

I have to disagree with your thoughts that a backup center cannot make or break a season, but I do agree that trading a back up center and a first round pick for another back up center is not a good idea.

Yes, the back up center is not going to be in the game for the last two minutes of a playoff game, but he can definitely decide many games (regular and playoff) by what he does (or, does not do) in his minutes on the court. I believe that a back up center can be worth at least several games per year and then perhaps one game in each playoff series with good quality play in the minutes he gets.

Let's just put it this way, Dedmon for Baynes and a 1st round pick?

It's not like Dedmon is Bill Walton.

I have to agree that if the caliber of the backup Center we're talking about is similar to that of Bill Walton of the 1986 Celtics then he can definitely decide many games.

But when we're talking about flipping Baynes and a 1st round pick for guys like Dedmon or Koufus...

by **fierce** Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:39 am

BleedGreen wrote:
fierce wrote:
BleedGreen wrote:Look at the Golden State Warriors, a team Ainge and Stevens clearly have their eyes on and wish to be able to compete with the next several years.

During the 2014-16 seasons when they won a title and had the 73 win team they started Bogut next to Draymond Green but he only played 22-23 minutes a game. Last year Zaza Pachulia started all 70 games he appeared in but averaged just 18 mins a game. Iguadala came off the bench and played around 26 minutes a game. When Green, their do-everything 2-way PF-C who is to them what Horford is to us moved to center, the Warriors originally had Harrison Barnes moving up to PF. Barnes is like Morris in a lot of ways and only grabbed 5 boards per 30 mins, just like Morris would likely do (or Hayward or Tatum until he gets stronger and more experienced). That made a legit center sized big capable of playing alongside Green (who is a MUCH better rebounder than Horford is to begin with) a big part of their rotation. Last year they swapped out Barnes for Durant and became even more scary.

Baynes can bang and board but is smaller and less talented than both Bogut and Zaza were from 2014-17. This is why I think and upgrade would be ideal for this team to become truly contender elite. It is not hard to see this and yet posters here are saying we do not need such a player? Huh?

Someone like Vucevic, or possibly even Koufos or Dedmon or a few others not mentioned could fill that role. If such a player became available to be traded for come Jan or Feb you'd have to think Danny would not pass on an opportunity to improve. We're not talking adding a 23 mil starter like Marc Gasol, but a 7-12m guy who can play 20-22 minutes in the Bogut/ZaZa role. It would undoubtedly make these Celtics a better team.

But you said that it's inevitable Ainge would flip Baynes once he's eligible to be traded in DECEMBER!

Now you're saying it's Jan. or Feb?

Clearly you have been triggered.

Obviously Dec is the first month he can be traded contractually and Feb the last month b/c of the deadline, so a Baynes trade would be anywhere in that 10 week range. Most likely Jan or Feb. That's how trades work in the NBA.

You really going to lecture me on how NBA trades work when you didn't even know the Celts owned IT's Bird rights?
Very Happy

by **fierce** Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:43 am

I don't think a team like the Orlando Magic is that stupid to trade Vucevic for Baynes, Larkin, Yabusele, and a #28 or #29 1st rounder.

To make the trade work, I included Yabu and Larkin.

Point is training camp hasn't even started and we're already talking about flipping players like they're burgers.

by **BleedGreen** Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:09 am

fierce wrote:

You really going to lecture me on how NBA trades work when you didn't even know the Celts owned IT's Bird rights?

How immature.

From the guy who said the Irving trade HAD TO include Morris along with IT and Jae (when I said any combination of Zizic, Yabu or Rozier would also work) and then defended that false statement by saying that the Celtics had FIVE SF's when Stevens doesn't even use that term and Semi and Morris are 3-4's.

If you don't like talking about possible trade upgrades to get a better big man this winter and can't be convivial don't comment at all.

by **fierce** Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:21 am

BleedGreen wrote:
fierce wrote:

You really going to lecture me on how NBA trades work when you didn't even know the Celts owned IT's Bird rights?

How immature.

From the guy who said the Irving trade HAD TO include Morris along with IT and Jae (when I said any combination of Zizic, Yabu or Rozier would also work) and then defended that false statement by saying that the Celtics had FIVE SF's when Stevens doesn't even use that term and Semi and Morris are 3-4's.

If you don't like talking about possible trade upgrades to get a better big man this winter and can't be convivial don't comment at all.

Fact check.
I never said IT HAD to be Morris ONLY!
What I said was Morris is my preference because I didn't want to include Rozier.

It's not about not wanting to upgrade and get better.
What I'm saying is it's silly to talk about an upgrade this early in the year when training camp hasn't even opened.

by **worcester** Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:51 am

Guys, Please stop the ad hominem attacks. Stick to bball opinions. Life is too short.

by **BleedGreen** Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:10 pm

fierce wrote:
BleedGreen wrote:
fierce wrote:

You really going to lecture me on how NBA trades work when you didn't even know the Celts owned IT's Bird rights?

How immature.

From the guy who said the Irving trade HAD TO include Morris along with IT and Jae (when I said any combination of Zizic, Yabu or Rozier would also work) and then defended that false statement by saying that the Celtics had FIVE SF's when Stevens doesn't even use that term and Semi and Morris are 3-4's.

If you don't like talking about possible trade upgrades to get a better big man this winter and can't be convivial don't comment at all.

Fact check.
I never said IT HAD to be Morris ONLY!
What I said was Morris is my preference because I didn't want to include Rozier.

It's not about not wanting to upgrade and get better.
What I'm saying is it's silly to talk about an upgrade this early in the year when training camp hasn't even opened.

You said it had to be Morris, no other reasoning was given.

Only AFTER I pointed out the deal could work for $ purposes with Rozier, Zizic or Yabu as well did you fly off the handle about how 'you knew that' but the team has too many SF's and therefore Morris was the logical one to go and on and on.

He was not the logical one to go. The C's were never going to give up BOTH Jae and Morris. And Stevens doesn't even use the term 'small forward' anymore. Please try being more respectful and convivial here. Your immature behavior is not appreciated.

by **bobheckler** Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:54 pm

How about Hump? He's not a true big but he is a solid veteran, he knows Brad and Brad knows him, and he can rebound, rebound, rebound.

Has Kris Humphries' Boston Celtic ship already sailed?

bob

.

by **NYCelt** Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:13 pm

One quick warning.

If personal attacks don't stop, I'm locking this thread.

Watch some football. Maybe take a moment and ask the real big man for some help for those contending with storms.

Just chill here.

by **swish** Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:20 pm

NYCelt wrote:One quick warning.

If personal attacks don't stop, I'm locking this thread.

Watch some football. Maybe take a moment and ask the real big man for some help for those contending with storms.

Just chill here.

NYCelt,

"Bravo",

swish

by **beat** Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:20 pm

Please PUT them in a corner for a week !!

Sick of it !

beat

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