The Greatest Team

Hey Nic

MY OPINION 1969 greatest team!!

EVER

You cannot prove otherwise, any more than I can prove they are.
It's my OPINION!

As I pointed out much earlier, all these threads, best or greatest, are very subjective, there is NO right or wrong answer.

Who is my answer to the greatest 10,000 meter runner of all time. No it's not the world record holder, heck he's not even in the top ten. But when all was on the line in the 64 Tokyo Olympics, Unknown Billy Mills from the USA beat the supposed "greatest" runners from that time. He was the 69 Celtic's in that final lap overtaking several runners including the great Ron Clarke during the final 50 meters.

A team that waltzes thru the season winning 65-70 games then thru the playoffs in a breeze, never has any injuries, or has to overcome anything. What is great about doing what is expected?

Give me the "Billy Mills" bunch who overcame. Sam was to be done and apparently Russ knew in his mind he was done too. They were overmatched in many ways but not where it mattered. In their heart.

So for you to say "No way they can be considered the greatest" is fine, but I think they are. And no way I'm changing my mind.

beat

Beat

How do you really feel about it?

Jeb

jeb

that about sums it up.
greatest, best, ect lists are what they are. If you have already made up your mind why ask how others feel?
Why even have the thread if you don't want to accept others opinions?

beat

Cause it gets everybody fired up I reckon. My fav team for guts was the 87 celts that damn near beat the lakes.

Good conversation. People feel strong about the topic.

Jeb

Jeb, you are a riot!! It would be great to win #18 and "hear" the celebration and "explosion" on this site. My bet is that you and Schlep will be the loudest celebraters!!!

When the greatest team consideration doesn't include a player who won 11 rings in 13 years, there is absolutely no objectivity involved. In my mind, the problem lies in how people define the word "team". The Americans winning the gold medal in hockey and the 1969 Celtics who permanently glued Cooke's balloons to the once alleged Fabulous Forum, are two examples of the real definition of "great" TEAMS. Maybe there were "groups" of players that had better talent in many of the years the C's won, but very few ever had the "best" TEAM!! That is, in within the spirit of the real definition of TEAM that creates the difference between winners and losers!

Don't get upset Nick, its great having you around, but having personally seen the balloon game, I am casting my vote for Beat's nomination!!! By the way, you had asked what started my path towards being banned my one and only time at BDC. It started when a "tear down" Bill Russell and Red Auerbach campaign was allowed to continue for a number of days by BDC. It ended up with sending me to the penalty box, and ultimately in the "banned box" while the Russell and Red haters were allowed to continue the attack. However, it sure felt good standing behind the best TEAM player that ever played in organized professional sports. Russ, was, is, and will always be the BEST!!! No matter how many drinks are served to Celtics Haters!!

I think there's a difference between people giving reasons why they disagree and flat-out rudeness-----I think people enjoy the give and take--your choice/my choice/anyone's choice makes for good debate--that's whats fun about it.

Beat,

I have a Billy Mills t-shirt that I prize. He used to sell them to support Native American causes. It's about two sizes too small now, but I wear it around my neck. That race had to be one of my biggest thrills ever in sports.

Coincidentally, the 1969 Celtics win was another of my biggest thrills in sports—quite probably the single biggest. What too many people discount in considering the answer to the question in this post is the value of a team's having such versatility and insistence on winning that they could match up with any team of any time and find a pathway to victory. Instead, people tend to consider only what a given team did during that given season, given the set of circumstances that prevailed during that season.

For me,"ALL-TIME" best means best able to adapt to any circumstance and any style of play over the past 60+ years, while being extremely competitive with a very high likelihood of winning.

Sam

I vividly remember the Billy Mills improbable win---taking the final turn--coming outta nowhwere and blowing everybody off down the stretch.Mindless trivia---Bud Palmer was doin the call of the race.

DJ wrote:I think there's a difference between people giving reasons why they disagree and flat-out rudeness-----I think people enjoy the give and take--your choice/my choice/anyone's choice makes for good debate--that's was fun about it.

DJ, great comments and great thread. The environment that Sam and the group created allows folks to have some fun agreeing and disagreeing. You posted a great question that "hits" the support buttons that we all have for our teams. For example, Babyskyhook added some great Lakers comments which fit right in to the discussion, however I doubt any one of us Celtic fans will convince him to change his mind about the 1987 Lakers. However, his input adds energy to the discussion.

Good job DJ!!! You should get a vote for the Best Thread of the Season on this one.

David

I would be sorely disappointed in Babyskyhook if he changed his mind. He's obviously a person of good judgment and great conviction.

Sam

Yes Sam, babyskyhook represents the Lakers the way in the way that Magic and the Lakers would prefer. He never waivered with his Laker support while at the same time he made it clear that he never supported the Celtics Haters that arrived on the scene.

David

David 14

WHEN we hoist banner 18 I'll prolly have to check my undergarments

Jeb

Sam

I told you my boy DJ had a big brain and more skills than a community college!

Jeb

jeb65 wrote:David 14

WHEN we hoist banner 18 I'll prolly have to check my undergarments

Jeb

Jeb, knowing the little we are learning about you, I believe you would do just that!!! You are definitely a great addition to Sam's new site!! Don't go anywhere!!!

David

I'm not mad at BeatLA or anyone who thinks the 69 Celtics might be the greatest team of all time. I'm with Sam that these kinds of lists aren't definitive or can't be mathematically proven or however he puts it. For baseball, of course the 2004 Red Sox weren't the "greatest team" of all time, but to me they are. No other team came back from 0-3 in baseball, and I think it only happened two other times in hockey and never in basketball. I love hearing about the balloon game. There are very few Joe Namath type moments in sports where someone opens their yapper and delivers. It more often turns into bulletin board material that backfires. I will say that the Sox winning in 2004 was the best thing that ever happened to me as a sports fan. It made last year with KG getting hurt easier to accept. It made the Patriots losing to the Giants not so bad when they were a fluke play away from perfection. The only problem I had with that was those veteran Dolphin players were annoying. Talk about being spiteful and clinging to a 12 win season. The Patriots had to win 16. Sure, the 1972 Dolphins were a great team, maybe the best of all time, but show some class. It's only a game. Being a bad sport when winning is perhaps worse than doing so when losing. The Lakers should never have set up the balloons. I go with the Belichick philosophy of always speaking highly of the opponent and never underestimating them. There are no guarantees. Maybe if Cleveland didn't rub salt in the Celtics' wounds last year, they might not be on the brink of getting embarrassed. The Laker fans at BDC just don't get it. I appreciate and respect the few Laker fans who post on this forum.

It is funny, when you read or listen to what Bill Russell has to say about playing for the Celtics he says that "I have been to heaven, any place after that would be a step down". He repeatedly talks about his teammates and the friendships he formed over the years. He keeps in touch with most of his old teammates. I have a friend who had a picture that she obtained from the Boston Herald in l969. It showed Russell standing on the court with his arm resting on Larry Siegfried. She bumped into Russell at a sports show one day. She had brought the picture with her. She talked to him, showed him the picture and asked if he would sign it. He said "no, but if you give it to me, I will have someone send it back to you after I sign it at home". She had two copies of this picture, he asked her if he could have one! He was thrilled when she gave it to him. Just something so small but
it showed that he still held his former teammate in high regard. It is amazing to me that he still, whenever he talks, gives so much credit to his former teammates. Once, twice, or maybe even more he talks to many of these men. Just listen to him talk, he is truly an amazing man.

I was there the night they re-retired his number. If you remember correctly he wasn't there the first time, he wanted no fanfare. That night he finally mellowed and let Boston know how he felt about them. Since then he has been a fixture at important Celtic events.

This is why it is impossible to ever forget any team Russ played for. That 1969 team came out of the blue. They had finished in fourth place, yet, when the playoffs started, there had to be fear in any team they played.

If Russ feels like he has already been to heaven he has taken most of us who have followed him and the Celtics along for the ride. Don't get me wrong, I am not living in the past. As anyone who has read my posts before can see, I have followed them through decades of championships. Each decade has produced players who have brought me such enjoyment. I truly loved that l986 team, and this team, right now, has me chomping at the bit for the season to start.

As far as Mr. Ryan is concerned, maybe I didn't see his article because I had stopped reading him a while ago when he went "hollywood" on us. Television really pumped his ego. But, good luck to him if he continues to write like he does, he will find himself on the outside looking in. Players just won't talk to him. He's lucky Red isn't alive, he would have thrown him out of the locker room. He did it once years ago!

David14 wrote:Rosalie/Nick- I actually have enjoyed reading Bob Ryan for years, therefore I was surprised and disappointed with the article. Here is the link for Bob's comments.

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2008/10/29/little_rhythm_but_no_blues/?page=full

---------
The following was Bob's response to me when I suggested that he may have been too harsh on Paul--

"You and I should be waiting for his apology. Did he think it was Oscar
night? I.I, me, me. Did he think people were concerned with his thoughts?
Did it occur to him to mention the teammates, two especially, that made it
all possible? What's the matter with him? What's the matter with you?
Bob Ryan"
-------
The conversation became more congenial after a few more emails. However, Paul had to have been bothered by the article.

David

David14, I read the article, and while Bob didn't give out to Paul for crying or holding back tears, he wrote a sentence or two dissing him for his speech.

Bob Ryan wrote:Paul Pierce, who was here when the team was an irrelevant part of the Boston sports landscape, fought back tears as he accepted his piece of jewelry. It was a touching moment.

He also addressed the sellout TD Banknorth crowd of 18,624 with a rambling, embarrassing, self-indulgent speech. That was not a touching moment. You kept wondering why he didn't hear the music and see the lights flashing.

But then he went out and scored a game-high 27, so in the end all was forgiven...

Bob had no problem with Pierce being emotional, tears or not. I'd love to read a transcript or watch what Paul actually said that night. I might have missed the speech or totally forgot it. It sounds like Paul might have had a bit of Michael Jordanitis that night, and then Ryan would have been correct to write what he did. But I don't have the transcript or a video of the presentation to look at to give a more informed opinion.

Nic

Your quote(s)

"This shouldn't be that tough to come close to a consensus. No one is mentioning any team from before Bill Russell showing up (like George Mikan led teams). That means the greatest Russell Celtic team needs to be figured out. If you older guys can't decide on that, then oh well.

As for the 1969 team, no way can that be considered the greatest."

second quote

"I'm not mad at BeatLA or anyone who thinks the 69 Celtics might be the greatest team of all time."

Sure appears to me the consensus you allude to is fine if it falls in line with your view. The "no way" comment bears that out, in my opinion. There is a lot more to it than just picking a team that had the best record or the most stars, in my opinion. And it has to be difficult to truly judge things from before our collective memories.

I believe you mentioned somewhere you began following the C's in the mid 70's, perhaps I am wrong. Many of us that speak of the 69 team saw it either live or on TV.

As for Bob Ryan, I can take him or leave him, probably moreso the latter.

Anyway off to a fantisy NBA draft. I've got the third pick.

Nic, as I mentioned before, we can just agree to disagree and thats fine.

beat

There's no question in my mind that the 1968-69 Celtics pulled off the greatest single season achievement or coup in NBA history. I'd go down with the ship fighting on that one. Moreover, they're closer to my heart than any other Celtics team (and I've loved many of them).

But the question of greatness implies many criteria, of which the ability to surmount the odds is just one. The reason for the lack of agreement on the "greatest team ever" is because we can't agree on the criteria. And I'm willing to bet that, in selecting criteria, many of us have the tail wagging the dog. By that, I mean that we're either subconsciously or consciously identifying those criteria that favor the team we WANT to be the greatest of all time.

Is a record-setting winning streak during the season the best criterion? Or a record number of wins in a season? Okay, how strong were the opponents during those accomplishments? How many key injuries did major opponents have? Given the makeup of the teams that pulled off these accomplishments, how likely is it that they could have dominated all the other teams of all-time, regardless of what styles other teams played, the matchup challenges they presented, and their degree of overall proficiency?

How important is balance in the question of the greatest team ever? I loved the Bird Celtics, and I grudgingly admired the Magic Lakers. But I thought both teams were two-trick ponies. For the Celtics, it was (1) jam the ball down low to tall (fairly slow) guys and (2) let Larry do his thing. (I'm not at all denigrating the talents of guys like DJ or Danny because they played key roles; but I'm just talking in generalities.) If those teams had an Achilles' heel, I thought it was vulnerability to speed.

For the Lakers, it was (1) Magic to Worthy and (2) Kareem for the sky hook. Again, there were obviously other strong contributors all the way down to Michael Cooper's defense and dagger threes. But I'm still talking generalities. If those teams had an Achilles' heel, I thought it was rather porous defense and (except for Worthy) vulnerability to speed.

Two amazing teams, and yet I feel both had Achilles' heels. And they exposed the Achilles' heels in one another at one time or another. Were there no teams in the annals of time that couldn't have taken advantage of those Achilles' heels and yet didn't have major, offsetting Achilles' heels themselves?

I'm just askin'.

Sam

Sam's kind of put it all in perspective with his last post. I agree that our own biases are going to skew which criteria we select. When I said above that I wasn't getting mad, it was more a response to David14 asking me not to. I think a big problem with forums is we cannot see other's facial expressions. To expand on that, I have no recollection or way to know exactly what Pierce said at the ring ceremony. I wish I did. I would like to have an informed opinion on the friendly debate David had with Bobby Ryan. BeatLA, I definitely was not old enough to have experienced the balloon game. I got a glimpse of the last Tommy coached title. I started following the team during the Wicks-Rowe era. I was fully awake to watch Red create the Bird era. For the Red Sox, it was kind of similar. When I look back at game 6 of the 1975 World Series, it's not Fisk's homerun I remember. It was Carbo's! Then when I became fully awake it was for the choke jobs in 1978 and 1986 culminating in 2003 with the Grady Little debacle. I think it is clear that when we were born is going to explain a lot about who are favorite individual teams were and how we view the local franchises. I hate hockey, because Cam Neely had his career stolen by a hack named Ulfie Samuelson. I remember the Patriots plodding along with awful years and solid Grogan years. I was around to see the Tuna turn it around and get us closer to the mountaintop. Before that, I remember Chuck Fairbanks having thrown the team under the bus. I appreciate what the Tuna did, but let's face it, Belichick has to now be considered the better coach. One of those Tuna wins in the Super Bowl was a fluke. Wow, sorry to ramble off-topic. God bless the balloon game. p.s. There's some kind of photobucket bandwidth thing going on. I think the solution can be found at the forumotion forum. Just plug bandwidth into their search engine and threads on it pop up.

I do think that the 69 Celts had the best playoffs off any other team in history because of the amazing determination. But i don't think they were the best all time team. For me its
1. 86 Boston Celtics

2. 64-65 Celts or 87 Lakers (i hate to even put them in the same sentence)

3. 69 Celts

4. Jordan almost any of his teams but mostly the 72 win 95- 96

5. 1969-70 Knicks

6. 82-83 Phily

7. 66-67 Phily

8. 2002-2003 Spurs

9. 1988-89 Pistons

10. 1976 Celtics or 1981 Celtics or 2009-2010 Celtics

Those are my top 10 best team ever in the nba.

Nick, with respect to Paul Pierce's emotional reaction to the ring ceremony, I can fill you in with a little info. Paul walked up to Doc, told Doc that he was getting emotional. Later when Doc was questioned about what Paul said, Doc said Paul wanted apologize in advance to Doc since he felt the emotions coming on. Doc told him to enjoy and follow his heart. Paul thanked a lot of folks, including his mom, Danny, and most in the Celtic organization including Red, Danny, and Wyc.

While I am not one to contact sports writers, I felt it would be helpful in this case. My debate with Bob Ryan was based on a difference of opinion where I argued that Paul's emotions were based on his role as a Boston Celtic, and not specifically as Paul Peirce the individual player. Bob interpreted Paul's reaction as one being feeling passion for his own personal accomplishments and not specifically as a Boston Celtic, and/or for the team in general. I'm not the judge or jury, however I was touched by Paul's passion and felt it was well within his role as a Boston Celtic. Obviously, Bob Ryan disagreed.

While I still think Paul has a ways to go to reach the same Celtics family status and such folks as Cousy, Russ, Satch, Sam Jones, KC, Jo Jo, Hondo, and those who inform the public that they are forever Celtics, such as Larry, ML, and Max, I thought Paul deserved a rejection of the harsh words that Bob Ryan publised in the Boston Globe.

Just one fan's opinion.

David

Four pages of very good posts and interesting rationales.

But, as of yet, no one has even mentioned the REAL best one-year NBA team of all-time (although there is one other team that could almost create a "pick 'em" situation, and that one has been mentioned.)

Sam

You've got me Sam. Obviously, it is not obvious to any of us or we would have come up with at least one suggestion regarding the team you are referring to. Might it be a real oldie? Or all that we have mentioned, as everyone has their own idea of who was best, with their own theories and memories. Cousy???? Oscar???? Mikan????Petitt?????

I can't think of another team that would be good enough to be among the ones other than a late fifties celtic team, a pettit, a jabbar team or a big o team. My best guess is 2008 Celtics.