Re: This and that

by **swish** Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:19 am

dboss
Take a look at the offensive and defensive points scored and allowed by the Celtics during the Russell years. Only in the 1967-68 season did the celts finish out of 1st place (second) in points allowed while their rankings on offense were way back in the pack. Iv'e posted the 1956-57 team for the starting point - if you have any difficulty pulling up the data let me know and I'll pull up the data for you.
Note- click onto header for ortg and drtg for sorting. Return to top of page to move onto next year.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1957.html#all_misc_stats

swish

by **dboss** Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:23 am

Rumor has it that the Pistons are interested in Fultz

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2018/12/13/markelle-fultz-trade-rumors-detroit-pistons/2304201002/

by **dboss** Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:04 pm

swish wrote:dboss
Take a look at the offensive and defensive points scored and allowed by the Celtics during the Russell years. Only in the 1967-68 season did the celts finish out of 1st place (second) in points allowed while their rankings on offense were way back in the pack. Iv'e posted the 1956-57 team for the starting point - if you have any difficulty pulling up the data let me know and I'll pull up the data for you.
Note- click onto header for ortg and drtg for sorting. Return to top of page to move onto next year.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1957.html#all_misc_stats

swish

Swish I think that their Pace reflected a lot of fast break opportunities. They had some great defensive teams but if you take away their fast break they were beatable. Teams simply could not slow them down.

by **bobheckler** Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:10 pm

File this under 'Professional Incompetence'.

A 3-team trade between Washington, Phoenix and Memphis fell apart because of the confusion as to WHICH Brooks was to be included in the trade, Dillon or MarShon, both with Memphis.

Phoenix was stupid for not specifying which Brooks they were interested in and Memphis is REALLY stupid for not realizing they have TWO Brooks on their roster so they should probably be clear who they is being talked about.

You read about shit like this and you want to drop to your knees and thank God we have Danny Ainge and Mike Zarren.

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2018/12/15/18141899/dillon-brooks-grizzlies-nba-trade-suns-wizards-winners-losers

bob

.

by **dboss** Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:26 pm

As to what was more important, defense or offense. The team that scores the most points always wins. Bill Russell once said it is all about making buckets.

The Cowens teams also ran teams off the court. Check their pace That team was also a great defensive team.

By the time Bird and Magic came along it was LAL that had the killer fast break and that is why they won 5 titles to our 3. Remember you had to slow them down to win.

In sum fast break basketball is a key ingredient for winning especially for teams that do not shoot particularly well.

by **dboss** Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:28 pm

bobheckler wrote:File this under 'Professional Incompetence'.

A 3-team trade between Washington, Phoenix and Memphis fell apart because of the confusion as to WHICH Brooks was to be included in the trade, Dillon or MarShon, both with Memphis.

Phoenix was stupid for not specifying which Brooks they were interested in and Memphis is REALLY stupid for not realizing they have TWO Brooks on their roster so they should probably be clear who they is being talked about.

You read about shit like this and you want to drop to your knees and thank God we have Danny Ainge and Mike Zarren.

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2018/12/15/18141899/dillon-brooks-grizzlies-nba-trade-suns-wizards-winners-losers

bob

.

This trade did happen between Suns and Wizards

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25540285/washington-wizards-trading-trevor-ariza-phoenix-suns

by **worcester** Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:28 pm

And our young, young team has legs to run with anyone.

by **swish** Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:29 pm

dboss wrote:
swish wrote:dboss
Take a look at the offensive and defensive points scored and allowed by the Celtics during the Russell years. Only in the 1967-68 season did the celts finish out of 1st place (second) in points allowed while their rankings on offense were way back in the pack. Iv'e posted the 1956-57 team for the starting point - if you have any difficulty pulling up the data let me know and I'll pull up the data for you.
Note- click onto header for ortg and drtg for sorting. Return to top of page to move onto next year.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1957.html#all_misc_stats

swish

Swish I think that their Pace reflected a lot of fast break opportunities. They had some great defensive teams but if you take away their fast break they were beatable. Teams simply could not slow them down.

We will never know if the Celts would have been better or worse offensivly without the fastbreak - but we do know for sure that the Celts were an absolute terror on defense all 13 years of Russells (and others) tenure with the team.

swish

by **worcester** Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:31 pm

And our young, young team has legs to run with anyone.

by **cowens/oldschool** Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:47 pm

dboss wrote:As to what was more important, defense or offense. The team that scores the most points always wins. Bill Russell once said it is all about making buckets.

The Cowens teams also ran teams off the court. Check their pace That team was also a great defensive team.

By the time Bird and Magic came along it was LAL that had the killer fast break and that is why they won 5 titles to our 3. Remember you had to slow them down to win.

In sum fast break basketball is a key ingredient for winning especially for teams that do not shoot particularly well.

Len Bias, they got Worthy for a washed up Gail Goodrich, Bias was stronger and more explosive than Worthy and our break would have been just as killer with Bias and a young Reggie Lewis.

by **bobheckler** Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:50 pm

dboss wrote:
bobheckler wrote:File this under 'Professional Incompetence'.

A 3-team trade between Washington, Phoenix and Memphis fell apart because of the confusion as to WHICH Brooks was to be included in the trade, Dillon or MarShon, both with Memphis.

Phoenix was stupid for not specifying which Brooks they were interested in and Memphis is REALLY stupid for not realizing they have TWO Brooks on their roster so they should probably be clear who they is being talked about.

You read about shit like this and you want to drop to your knees and thank God we have Danny Ainge and Mike Zarren.

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2018/12/15/18141899/dillon-brooks-grizzlies-nba-trade-suns-wizards-winners-losers

bob

.

This trade did happen between Suns and Wizards

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25540285/washington-wizards-trading-trevor-ariza-phoenix-suns

dboss,

Phoenix won this trade, in my opinion.

Rivers' contract is expiring and I like Kelly Oubre, I especially like that he's in the WC now, and Ariza is 33 years old and on the back 9. Oubre is cheap and has another year on his contract after this one. Then he's a RFA, which means Phoenix maintains control over him. It's also a great opportunity for him. He'll have a chance to star on Phoenix. He was never going to move ahead of Beal or Porter in Washington.

If John Wall thinks Ariza is a solution, much less THE solution, he's nuts. I cannot understand support for this other than that. Ariza's contract is expiring, as is Rivers', so it isn't just a salary dump. Washington gave up 2 young bench players, one whose $12M/year contract is expiring (and is probably NOT going to sign for the same money next year), in exchange for a 33 year old bench player (certainly on Washington with Otto Porter) with an expiring $15M/year contract.

bob

.

by **worcester** Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:19 pm

Celtics won this trade.

by **swish** Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:37 pm

swish wrote:
dboss wrote:
swish wrote:dboss
Take a look at the offensive and defensive points scored and allowed by the Celtics during the Russell years. Only in the 1967-68 season did the celts finish out of 1st place (second) in points allowed while their rankings on offense were way back in the pack. Iv'e posted the 1956-57 team for the starting point - if you have any difficulty pulling up the data let me know and I'll pull up the data for you.
Note- click onto header for ortg and drtg for sorting. Return to top of page to move onto next year.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1957.html#all_misc_stats

swish

Swish I think that their Pace reflected a lot of fast break opportunities. They had some great defensive teams but if you take away their fast break they were beatable. Teams simply could not slow them down.

We will never know if the Celts would have been better or worse offensivly without the fastbreak - but we do know for sure that the Celts were an absolute terror on defense all 13 years of Russells (and others) tenure with the team.

swish

At a time when the league was primarily comprised of only 8, 9,or 10 teams the Celtics points scored offense was ranked over those 13 years as follows.

4th 1 time -- 5th 3 times -- 6th 1 time -- 7th 2 times -- 8th 3 times -- 9th 2 times -- 10th 1 time. Big on running but low on production.

swish

by **tjmakz** Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:38 pm

worcester wrote:WELCOME BACK TJ. IS IT RAINING IN TAMPA? WE ARE GETTING DELUGED IN srq. LOOK FORWARD TO HEARING FROM YOU. LAKERS LOOK TO BE SCARY GOOD WITH JUST A FEW MORE ADDITIONS.

Thanks Worcester.
We have had a lot of rain over the last two days.
Unusual for Dec in Tampa.

The Lakers have made good strides.
The roster will probably change some by the trade deadline.
Kiuzma looks like he’s going to be a very special player and plays well with LeBron.

by **bobheckler** Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:39 pm

tjmakz wrote:
worcester wrote:WELCOME BACK TJ. IS IT RAINING IN TAMPA? WE ARE GETTING DELUGED IN srq. LOOK FORWARD TO HEARING FROM YOU. LAKERS LOOK TO BE SCARY GOOD WITH JUST A FEW MORE ADDITIONS.

Thanks Worcester.
We have had a lot of rain over the last two days.
Unusual for Dec in Tampa.

The Lakers have made good strides.
The roster will probably change some by the trade deadline.
Kiuzma looks like he’s going to be a very special player and plays well with LeBron.

Welcome back, TJ.

bob

.

by **tjmakz** Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:51 pm

bobc33 wrote:
tjmakz wrote:
dboss wrote:TJ

Where have you been?

dboss,

I got tired of dealing with a couple of the newer members here.
Ones who post a lot in a short period of time, get people riled up, then you don't hear from them for a while until they do it again.
My main supporter (Sam) was a solid defender of outsiders here. Much of that support left when he passed.
My issues were/are with a few here, by no means the majority.
I hope all is well with you.

TJ it is good to hear from you! Would be interested in hearing your take on the Lakers. I’ve watched a few of their games, mostly because I think Lonzo has great creativity and court vision and LeBron of course is a great passer. They are far from a finished product as this upcoming off season I believe they have a lot of money to spend, but I would not want to play them in the playoffs even as presently constituted.

Bob,

I think the Lakers could get to the Western Conference Finals this year but they are not serious contenders against Golden State.
LeBron is playing great but he’s coasting some. His focus is on helping the team improve, while getting a decent playoff spot. Then he will turn it on 100% for the playoffs.
I wouldn’t be surprised in they moved Lonzo by the trade deadline.
I’m just not sure a big trade will be available this year.
I would be happy keeping their max cap space available for July.

by **tjmakz** Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:55 pm

bobheckler wrote:
tjmakz wrote:
worcester wrote:WELCOME BACK TJ. IS IT RAINING IN TAMPA? WE ARE GETTING DELUGED IN srq. LOOK FORWARD TO HEARING FROM YOU. LAKERS LOOK TO BE SCARY GOOD WITH JUST A FEW MORE ADDITIONS.

Thanks Worcester.
We have had a lot of rain over the last two days.
Unusual for Dec in Tampa.

The Lakers have made good strides.
The roster will probably change some by the trade deadline.
Kiuzma looks like he’s going to be a very special player and plays well with LeBron.

Welcome back, TJ.

bob

.

Thanks Bob.
Busy times coming up with Christmas then I’m getting married on 12/29.
I hope you are doing great.
I will find some threads to share my opinions and thoughts.

by **cowens/oldschool** Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:00 pm

gyso wrote:I have always thought that Coach Tommy's teams of the 70's ran even more than those of the 60's.

Maybe that is just the perception left after listing to Tommy all these years.

gyso

Those teams are still my favorite, before Magic, Scottie Pippen and Lebron was there ever a player who could play more positions with versatility both ends and with a huge clutch gene than Havlicek? And Cowens did for hustle and hard nosed play what Magic and Bird did for passing.

by **swish** Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:06 pm

The Lakers on the other hand were the exact opposite of the Celtics - with Magic showing the way their offense was dominant. Starting in 1979-80 they posted the following numbers on points scored offense over a 11 year period.
1st - 7 time -- 2nd - 1 times -- 6th - 1 time -- 7th - 1 time
On defense the numbers dropped off.
6th - 1 time -- 7th 4 times -- 8th 1 time -- 9th 3 times -- 10th 1 time -- 13th 1 time.

swish

by **bobheckler** Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:55 pm

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/watch-video-many-times-james-005930360.html

Watch the video: How many times was James Harden fouled by the Lakers?

Kurt Helin,NBC Sports
18 hours ago

James Harden has attempted 235 free throws this season, second most in the NBA (Joel Embiid, to answer your question about the most). He averages 9.8 free throws a game, again second most in the NBA.

Every team complains about how he draws fouls — driving into players bodies then selling it by throwing his head back, flailing his arms and going to the ground. Last night the Lakers were so frustrated they played with their hands behind their backs for a while.

How many fouls did Harden really draw? Watch this and decide for yourself.

https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/1073594993258913792
David Astramskas
@redapples
How many times was James Harden fouled in this video?

3,282
7:06 AM - Dec 14, 2018

The NBA referees think he was fouled more than you do. That includes a foul on Kyle Kuzma.

https://twitter.com/OfficialNBARefs/status/1073647375229415424
NBA Referees

@OfficialNBARefs
Why is it hard to educate fans about the rules? Here's what we're up against. From last night's game, @RealChrisWebber was incorrect here. This is a foul, as the defender makes illegal contact with his knee to the thigh of the offensive player, causing him to fall to the floor.

6,694
10:34 AM - Dec 14, 2018

kuz

@kylekuzma
Can we get fined if we tweet back at this account?
https://twitter.com/OfficialNBARefs/status/1073647375229415424

NBA Referees

@OfficialNBARefs
· Dec 14, 2018
Why is it hard to educate fans about the rules? Here's what we're up against. From last night's game, @RealChrisWebber was incorrect here. This is a foul, as the defender makes illegal contact with his knee to the thigh of the offensive player, causing him to fall to the floor.
https://twitter.com/OfficialNBARefs/status/1073647375229415424

NBA Referees

@OfficialNBARefs
.@RealChrisWebber is incorrect here as well. This is a correctly called foul, as the defender makes contact with his shoulder as he is moving illegally into the offensive player's space. These are obvious fouls, and fans deserve accurate analysis. 2/2 pic.twitter.com/59VQSbTDbj

2,518
10:36 AM - Dec 14, 2018
https://twitter.com/OfficialNBARefs/status/1073647893427286016

That second one is the correct call — Lonzo Ball has his hands down but he as the defender initiates the contact and drives into Harden. That’s a foul. Other ones are as well, the Lakers slid under him as he went up on a number of plays.

A lot of NBA fans complaining about the calls Harden gets may want to watch their own team more closely — a lot of players do the same thing. Not as often or as convincingly as Harden, but it’s the same idea, a lot of players do the same thing.

Harden is the master of drawing fouls, with his herky-jerky, old man at the Y game which includes a lot of stepbacks and flailing. It’s frustrated everyone, including Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook when they had to guard him as teammates.

Why does he do it? Because it works. It throws defenders off. Same reason Marcus Smart and others flop on defense, he gets calls and gets in opponents heads.

And it’s not going to stop.

bob
MY NOTE: I agree, many players do what Harden does, they just don't do it as effectively as he does. Nevertheless I believe it degrades and demeans the game. If I wanted to combine athletics and overly dramatic acting I would either go to the ballet or watch soccer. At least with ballet there's a storyline, a plot. We need to drag Dave Cowens out of retirement and watch Harden and others drive on him and see what happens after they go down like they were shot by an elephant gun when there was virtually no contact. Just ask Mike Newlin. I was at that game. I had the best seats of my life, 2nd row floor, midcourt. I saw it, I heard it. I saw Mike Newlin flop twice on Cowens and then I saw Cowens sprint across the court on a subsequent play and, still at a full run, two-hand shiver Newlin over the scorers table at into the stands and then turn to the ref and scream "NOW THAT'S A FOUL!!". One of my favorite Celtic memories.

.

by **cowens/oldschool** Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:03 pm

That’s Dave Cowens HoF role player

by **dboss** Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:11 pm

swish wrote:
dboss wrote:
swish wrote:dboss
Take a look at the offensive and defensive points scored and allowed by the Celtics during the Russell years. Only in the 1967-68 season did the celts finish out of 1st place (second) in points allowed while their rankings on offense were way back in the pack. Iv'e posted the 1956-57 team for the starting point - if you have any difficulty pulling up the data let me know and I'll pull up the data for you.
Note- click onto header for ortg and drtg for sorting. Return to top of page to move onto next year.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1957.html#all_misc_stats

swish

Swish I think that their Pace reflected a lot of fast break opportunities. They had some great defensive teams but if you take away their fast break they were beatable. Teams simply could not slow them down.

We will never know if the Celts would have been better or worse offensivly without the fastbreak - but we do know for sure that the Celts were an absolute terror on defense all 13 years of Russells (and others) tenure with the team.

swish

Not to be disagreeable but I again disagree. Take away the Celtics Fast break during the Russell and Cowens years and you do not end up with all those titles.

The single biggest factor in winning is FGA. The more FGA the better your chance to win games. The Celtics were not a very good shooting team in those Russell years but they consistently played with more pace than those others teams and the stats from that period supports that. The defense was absolutely important but I have never seen anything that tells me that is the most important thing in winning. Although Boston was not a great offensive team they took more shots and that leveled the playing field for them. The fast break was what allowed them to dominate the league.

In my post to TJ, I pointed out how the Lakers pace has greatly contributed to their competitiveness on offense despite the lack of quality shooters.

It is all about FGA. If you look at the top 10 teams in FG attempts 5 of those teams are in the top 10 in fast break points. That leaves 5 teams that are top 10 in FGA and 4 of those 5 are in the top 10 in offensive rebounds.

Boston is now 6th in FGA and 8th in FB points.

The key to winning is taking more shots than your opponent (reducing turnovers, securing more offensive rebounds, turning them over ) then scoring on the fast break becomes a more efficient way to score. You score quick, your tire out your opponent. The old Celtics ran teams off the court because the other teams were fatigue and out of position defensively.

by **kdp59** Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:31 pm

I agree about Phoenix winning the Ariza trade also Bob.

I wouldn't be surprised if that rumored Porter to the Kings deal gets done soon now too.

and did anyone else see the Dwight Howard and the tranny (s) story around thanksgiving?

by **bobheckler** Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:23 am

Good sportsmanship by the big Kiwi. Good on ya, mate!

bob

.

by **worcester** Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:03 am

http://lexnihilnovi.blogspot.com/2008/09/cowens-now-thats-foul.html

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