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dustcover
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I'm clueless
by dustcover Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:52 pm
Acknowledging that I don’t see enough of other team’s centers, except those that play against the Celtics, I’m unable to weigh in on how good they are. But I have to wonder why some seem to think it is imperative that the Celtics acquire Anthony Davis in a trade.
I recently read where someone was surmising that Davis could be acquired by offering 3 first round picks plus Jalen Brown, Gordon Hayward, and perhaps Marcus Smart.
Is it just me, or are some of these prospective trades for Davis totally off the wall.
Is Davis really that good?!
How much better is he than some of the other top centers?
Rudy Gobert — Utah Jazz
Andre Drummond — Detroit Pistons
Karl-Anthony Towns
Nikola Jokic — Denver Nuggets
Joel Embiid — Philadelphia 76ers
DeAndre Jordan — Dallas Mavericks
Giannis Antetokounmpo --- Milwaukee Bucks
Is there not another top center that could be traded for that would fit nicely in the Celtics strategy to capture the championship, without sacrificing the valuable existing Celtic players and first round picks that it will obviously take to acquire Davis?
Trusting in the acumen of the more enlightened members of the forum, please share with me some of your insights.
I recently read where someone was surmising that Davis could be acquired by offering 3 first round picks plus Jalen Brown, Gordon Hayward, and perhaps Marcus Smart.
Is it just me, or are some of these prospective trades for Davis totally off the wall.
Is Davis really that good?!
How much better is he than some of the other top centers?
Rudy Gobert — Utah Jazz
Andre Drummond — Detroit Pistons
Karl-Anthony Towns
Nikola Jokic — Denver Nuggets
Joel Embiid — Philadelphia 76ers
DeAndre Jordan — Dallas Mavericks
Giannis Antetokounmpo --- Milwaukee Bucks
Is there not another top center that could be traded for that would fit nicely in the Celtics strategy to capture the championship, without sacrificing the valuable existing Celtic players and first round picks that it will obviously take to acquire Davis?
Trusting in the acumen of the more enlightened members of the forum, please share with me some of your insights.
dustcover- Posts : 8
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Age : 83
Re: I'm clueless
by cowens/oldschool Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:30 pm
Among those top ones, Giannis gives us a tough game, like he does with everybody, but we do real good against Embid, Al seems to get up for him and neutralizes him enough. We have the best 3 wings on any team, especially if GH keeps getting better as he has recently. JT and JB made a lot of plays, hit a lot of big shots in playoff run last year, no reason to believe they won’t be as good or better. Their defense lately has improved, they cover a lot of floor, get their hands on a lot of balls. Our point guard has also improved his defense and is one of 2 or 3 top offensive pg’s in the game. When he’s at top of his game, as good or better than anyone. I don’t think we need Anthony Davis at all....
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Re: I'm clueless
by cowens/oldschool Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:54 pm
Oh I just realized I didn’t answer the last question on first post, about acquiring another top center? Getting any of them will cost us, maybe too much to resign 2 J’s after signing Kyrie to a big deal, especially if he kicks ass this playoffs. I’d rather keep as much of team intact, develop RW and roll the dice with another talented developing big. I really feel we have enough great to be young talent that we just need good/great in their role type of bigs, we don’t need a max contract superstar big, just dirty work effort role playing bigs would be fine to add to the mix....
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Re: I'm clueless
by dustcover Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:02 am
cowens/oldschool wrote:Oh I just realized I didn’t answer the last question on first post, about acquiring another top center? Getting any of them will cost us, maybe too much to resign 2 J’s after signing Kyrie to a big deal, especially if he kicks ass this playoffs. I’d rather keep as much of team intact, develop RW and roll the dice with another talented developing big. I really feel we have enough great to be young talent that we just need good/great in their role type of bigs, we don’t need a max contract superstar big, just dirty work effort role playing bigs would be fine to add to the mix....
I like the way you think. I just hope Danny Ainge see things the same way.
dustcover- Posts : 8
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Re: I'm clueless
by kdp59 Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:04 am
Horford is getting older and next year is the last year of his max deal.
so soon we will need to be looking at a big of some type to replace him. Morris will likely be gone after this year (assuming Irving is re-signed) and that's another big man who needs replaced.
since we are over not only the cap, but the Tax line now we cannot sign another high end free agent for a while. Which leaves us the draft, mid-level FA signings and trades.
As for how good is Davis...the only ones on your list that is on his level is Embiid and Jokic right now. Towns may get there some day, but not yet.
Davis' major issue to me is, like Irving he has been somewhat injury prone in the past.
so soon we will need to be looking at a big of some type to replace him. Morris will likely be gone after this year (assuming Irving is re-signed) and that's another big man who needs replaced.
since we are over not only the cap, but the Tax line now we cannot sign another high end free agent for a while. Which leaves us the draft, mid-level FA signings and trades.
As for how good is Davis...the only ones on your list that is on his level is Embiid and Jokic right now. Towns may get there some day, but not yet.
Davis' major issue to me is, like Irving he has been somewhat injury prone in the past.
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Re: I'm clueless
by gyso Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:53 am
Once we see the results of our playoff run, then we will know what we need to do.
Hopefully one big player will want to join us this summer and sign using our MLE. Then we can keep much of the band together,
Hopefully one big player will want to join us this summer and sign using our MLE. Then we can keep much of the band together,
_________________
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Re: I'm clueless
by NYCelt Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:54 am
dustcover wrote:Acknowledging that I don’t see enough of other team’s centers, except those that play against the Celtics, I’m unable to weigh in on how good they are. But I have to wonder why some seem to think it is imperative that the Celtics acquire Anthony Davis in a trade.
I recently read where someone was surmising that Davis could be acquired by offering 3 first round picks plus Jalen Brown, Gordon Hayward, and perhaps Marcus Smart.
Is it just me, or are some of these prospective trades for Davis totally off the wall.
Is Davis really that good?!
How much better is he than some of the other top centers?
Rudy Gobert — Utah Jazz
Andre Drummond — Detroit Pistons
Karl-Anthony Towns
Nikola Jokic — Denver Nuggets
Joel Embiid — Philadelphia 76ers
DeAndre Jordan — Dallas Mavericks
Giannis Antetokounmpo --- Milwaukee Bucks
Is there not another top center that could be traded for that would fit nicely in the Celtics strategy to capture the championship, without sacrificing the valuable existing Celtic players and first round picks that it will obviously take to acquire Davis?
Trusting in the acumen of the more enlightened members of the forum, please share with me some of your insights.
Dustcover,
I agree with you. I don't see why it has to be Davis.
To acquire AD, there is no doubt Boston pays a high cost. Maybe too high. There is no possible way to do it without giving up a couple of our prized young players and at least a couple of picks high enough to pan out to make an NBA roster.
The team is missing rebounding, interior defense, and could use a little bump in low post scoring. And AD is the only one that fits the bill? No way.
You have to give up value to get value, but Davis would cost too much. The answer might already be in hand anyway. Between Williams, and a couple of upcoming picks that should be just high enough to land a decent NCAA big, the center spot may be just a season or two from being locked down. The heart of the team is young enough to wait. It's not a win it all this year thing.
Draft picks or maybe a solid, but non-All-Star FA could do the trick over the next season or two.
Count me in as perfectly happy to pass on Davis. It's not that he isn't a top big. It's that the price is too high and there may be a clear path to a title without him.
Regards
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Re: I'm clueless
by cowens/oldschool Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:03 pm
Agreed NYCelt, we get rid of either J, they are gonna blow up bigger than Olidipo, which in height they already are....
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Re: I'm clueless
by swish Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:31 pm
[quote="gyso"]Once we see the results of our playoff run, then we will know what we need to do."
I like your above comment Gyso, but will add the fact that Danny will then be confronted by how the other teams have done this summer via trades and free agency. Too often, when looking to the future, we fail to take into consideration future moves that OTHER contenders may make - moves that can critically alter the list of serious contenders in the league - sort of a "what if" approach look to the future.
swish
I like your above comment Gyso, but will add the fact that Danny will then be confronted by how the other teams have done this summer via trades and free agency. Too often, when looking to the future, we fail to take into consideration future moves that OTHER contenders may make - moves that can critically alter the list of serious contenders in the league - sort of a "what if" approach look to the future.
swish
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Re: I'm clueless
by bobheckler Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:54 pm
dustcover,
In my opinion Anthony Davis is the best big in the league. Period. The two that come closest are Jokic and Embiid. Giannis is not a center.
Those other centers are also very good but even if they are cheaper I'm not sure they are available. Jokic, Embiid and Giannis absolutely, positively are not available for any price and I doubt KAT and Gobert are either and a lot of the reason for why they are not available is because they are happy where they are. The only reason why we're spending so much time talking about Anthony Davis at all is because he is unhappy and wants out of Nwalins. So, upgrading that position, which we will eventually have to do with an aging Al Horford, is a very narrow path.
Offensive and Defensive Ratings are how many points the team scores, or gives up, when that player is on the floor and are based upon /100 possessions. The first 3 columns are the players' career numbers.
....................................OffRtg..............DefRtg............NetRtg........2019 OffRtg.......2019 DefRtg........2019 NetRtg
Anthony Davis-------------117---------------103------------+14----------123---------------105----------------+18
Joel Embiid----------------108---------------102-------------+6-----------113---------------104----------------+9
Karl-Anthony Towns-------120---------------108------------+12----------119---------------107----------------+12
Nikola Jokic----------------121---------------107------------+14----------120---------------105----------------+15
Andre Drummond---------109---------------100------------+9------------109---------------100----------------+9
Rudy Gobert---------------123---------------99--------------+24----------133---------------100---------------+33
DeAndre Jordan-----------121---------------102------------+19-----------121---------------104---------------+17 (Dallas Only)
Stats courtesy of basketball-reference.com
So, as you can see, the only players whose presence or absence has a bigger impact upon their teams are Rudy Gobert and DeAndre Jordan. Jordan might be available next year, but the rumblings coming out of NY are that they want to keep him to lure Durant to NY. IF KD re-signs with GSW then the Knicks might be more inclined to let Jordan go, and that might be an opening for us. Personally, I think Jordan's offense is no better than Robert Williams', his defense is about the same and we don't know yet how good Williams' rebounding (Jordan's other strength) could be. Do we really want to spend big for Jordan when we could have a younger, cheaper Jordan developing already? Gobert, in my opinion, is not available from Utah for love or money. I certainly don't think he'd be happy coming to a team with Gordon Hayward after trashing him for leaving Utah. There is NO redundancy on the Celtics as far as Anthony Davis goes. There is no Anthony Davis Mini-Me on the Celtics.
bob
.
In my opinion Anthony Davis is the best big in the league. Period. The two that come closest are Jokic and Embiid. Giannis is not a center.
Those other centers are also very good but even if they are cheaper I'm not sure they are available. Jokic, Embiid and Giannis absolutely, positively are not available for any price and I doubt KAT and Gobert are either and a lot of the reason for why they are not available is because they are happy where they are. The only reason why we're spending so much time talking about Anthony Davis at all is because he is unhappy and wants out of Nwalins. So, upgrading that position, which we will eventually have to do with an aging Al Horford, is a very narrow path.
Offensive and Defensive Ratings are how many points the team scores, or gives up, when that player is on the floor and are based upon /100 possessions. The first 3 columns are the players' career numbers.
....................................OffRtg..............DefRtg............NetRtg........2019 OffRtg.......2019 DefRtg........2019 NetRtg
Anthony Davis-------------117---------------103------------+14----------123---------------105----------------+18
Joel Embiid----------------108---------------102-------------+6-----------113---------------104----------------+9
Karl-Anthony Towns-------120---------------108------------+12----------119---------------107----------------+12
Nikola Jokic----------------121---------------107------------+14----------120---------------105----------------+15
Andre Drummond---------109---------------100------------+9------------109---------------100----------------+9
Rudy Gobert---------------123---------------99--------------+24----------133---------------100---------------+33
DeAndre Jordan-----------121---------------102------------+19-----------121---------------104---------------+17 (Dallas Only)
Stats courtesy of basketball-reference.com
So, as you can see, the only players whose presence or absence has a bigger impact upon their teams are Rudy Gobert and DeAndre Jordan. Jordan might be available next year, but the rumblings coming out of NY are that they want to keep him to lure Durant to NY. IF KD re-signs with GSW then the Knicks might be more inclined to let Jordan go, and that might be an opening for us. Personally, I think Jordan's offense is no better than Robert Williams', his defense is about the same and we don't know yet how good Williams' rebounding (Jordan's other strength) could be. Do we really want to spend big for Jordan when we could have a younger, cheaper Jordan developing already? Gobert, in my opinion, is not available from Utah for love or money. I certainly don't think he'd be happy coming to a team with Gordon Hayward after trashing him for leaving Utah. There is NO redundancy on the Celtics as far as Anthony Davis goes. There is no Anthony Davis Mini-Me on the Celtics.
bob
.
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Re: I'm clueless
by Ktronic1 Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:59 pm
Further things to ponder... it was 2008 when we last won a title. 11 years! How much longer do we want to wait?
Swish makes a good point. It ain’t like those other teams around us are not going to try and get better too.
Swish makes a good point. It ain’t like those other teams around us are not going to try and get better too.
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Re: I'm clueless
by cowens/oldschool Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:06 pm
I’d rather have a young team like this that can contend for years and still get better than a team with 30 year olds with a few year window.
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Re: I'm clueless
by bobheckler Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:15 pm
cowens/oldschool wrote:I’d rather have a young team like this that can contend for years and still get better than a team with 30 year olds with a few year window.
Cow,
First of all, what does "contending" mean? Is losing in the 2nd round "contending"? How about losing in the EC Finals like last year?
"Contending", pretty much by definition, means being good enough to be in the conversation but not good enough to win (aka "losing"). If you win you're not "a contender", you're the Champion. You'd rather be a contender than a Champion? Another decade of being First or Second or even Third Loser feels good to you? C'mon. I know you well enough to know you are WAY more competitive than that.
bob
.
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Re: I'm clueless
by cowens/oldschool Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:09 pm
Whatever bob I wouldn’t tear apart the team....
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Re: I'm clueless
by dboss Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:45 pm
Dustcover
I regularly engage with other board members about this question but I also talk with friends and family members about this and all of them say NO to making a trade for AD. One said AD is injury prone. Another said AD does not stretch the floor given he poor shooting from distance (31% career) Another said that he was not transformative player. He does not make his teammates better. And the bottom line points to the Celtics young players and 1st round drafts picks having more value than AD.
The Celtics should be more than able to address any single position on this team without gutting the best of their young talent in conjunction with draft picks.
I have no idea who that player may be. He could be sitting in the green room on draft night or he may be a player already in the league. If this is to be addressed by the Celtics I think it will be addressed in the context that the center position is not a specific focal point on this team and therefore getting a player with the skills and talent of Anthony Davis may not be required.
Danny Ainge may see things differently. A trip to the NBA Finals will give pause to any notion for making a team altering change.
I regularly engage with other board members about this question but I also talk with friends and family members about this and all of them say NO to making a trade for AD. One said AD is injury prone. Another said AD does not stretch the floor given he poor shooting from distance (31% career) Another said that he was not transformative player. He does not make his teammates better. And the bottom line points to the Celtics young players and 1st round drafts picks having more value than AD.
The Celtics should be more than able to address any single position on this team without gutting the best of their young talent in conjunction with draft picks.
I have no idea who that player may be. He could be sitting in the green room on draft night or he may be a player already in the league. If this is to be addressed by the Celtics I think it will be addressed in the context that the center position is not a specific focal point on this team and therefore getting a player with the skills and talent of Anthony Davis may not be required.
Danny Ainge may see things differently. A trip to the NBA Finals will give pause to any notion for making a team altering change.
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Re: I'm clueless
by worcester Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:12 pm
Cow, NY Celt, and Dboss, I am with you on the AD question, though I wish we'd really concentrate on getting more time on the court for RW.
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Re: I'm clueless
by atcross Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:55 pm
I can't help but notice that these conversations become more active when Horford or Baynes is out. We have a pretty solid (pun intended) true center in Baynes. He's not 7'2" and not a high scorer. But it seems one of the complaints is we have too many scorers. Horford is showing a little age and Theis is a bit undersized. But between them, when healthy, those three represent the position pretty well. Perk wasn't a superstar but we won with him. I can't see giving up pieces unless we know we will lose them anyway. Williams could be as good as a couple of those premier centers in a year or two anyway.
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Re: I'm clueless
by dboss Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:10 pm
atcross wrote:I can't help but notice that these conversations become more active when Horford or Baynes is out. We have a pretty solid (pun intended) true center in Baynes. He's not 7'2" and not a high scorer. But it seems one of the complaints is we have too many scorers. Horford is showing a little age and Theis is a bit undersized. But between them, when healthy, those three represent the position pretty well. Perk wasn't a superstar but we won with him. I can't see giving up pieces unless we know we will lose them anyway. Williams could be as good as a couple of those premier centers in a year or two anyway.
The only concern that I have regarding the Celtics and their ability to get to the big dance this year begins and ends with AH. The focus on offense is because last year despite a willing core of young guys we did not have enough offensive punch. With Kyrie back and now a healthy GH, offense should not be a problem.
Baynes played around 20 MPG last year and I expect he will be a major factor for us. The numbers indicate that the further into the playoffs AH goes the more his play declines. Let's look at a few numbers.
2018 playoffs
Bucks Round 1 (18.1 ppg and 8-7 rebounds
Sixers Round 2 (15.4 PPG and 8.6 rebounds
Cavs ECF (13.6 PPG and 7.6 rebounds
2017 Playoff
Bulls Round 1 (15.3 PPG and 8.6 rebounds
Wizards Round 2 ( 16.7 PPG and 6.6 rebounds
Cavs ECF (12.4 PPG and 4.2 rebounds
2016 Playoff (with Atlanta)
Celtics round 1 (12.5 PPG and 8.5 rebounds
Cavs round 2 (14.8 PPG and 3.2 Rebounds
Al tends to wear down in the playoffs. This year he has been struggling with tendinitis in his knee. I just do not know if he will be able to maintain a high level of play. That is my concern and I do not know if Baynes and Theis can give us enough to compensate for Al. Offensively we have at least 5 guys that can carry us in any game we play not including AL. What we need most from Al is for him to rebound and defend at a high level. We do not need much more than his 12 PPG to win.
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Re: I'm clueless
by atcross Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:32 pm
dboss wrote:atcross wrote:I can't help but notice that these conversations become more active when Horford or Baynes is out. We have a pretty solid (pun intended) true center in Baynes. He's not 7'2" and not a high scorer. But it seems one of the complaints is we have too many scorers. Horford is showing a little age and Theis is a bit undersized. But between them, when healthy, those three represent the position pretty well. Perk wasn't a superstar but we won with him. I can't see giving up pieces unless we know we will lose them anyway. Williams could be as good as a couple of those premier centers in a year or two anyway.
The only concern that I have regarding the Celtics and their ability to get to the big dance this year begins and ends with AH. The focus on offense is because last year despite a willing core of young guys we did not have enough offensive punch. With Kyrie back and now a healthy GH, offense should not be a problem.
Baynes played around 20 MPG last year and I expect he will be a major factor for us. The numbers indicate that the further into the playoffs AH goes the more his play declines. Let's look at a few numbers.
2018 playoffs
Bucks Round 1 (18.1 ppg and 8-7 rebounds
Sixers Round 2 (15.4 PPG and 8.6 rebounds
Cavs ECF (13.6 PPG and 7.6 rebounds
2017 Playoff
Bulls Round 1 (15.3 PPG and 8.6 rebounds
Wizards Round 2 ( 16.7 PPG and 6.6 rebounds
Cavs ECF (12.4 PPG and 4.2 rebounds
2016 Playoff (with Atlanta)
Celtics round 1 (12.5 PPG and 8.5 rebounds
Cavs round 2 (14.8 PPG and 3.2 Rebounds
Al tends to wear down in the playoffs. This year he has been struggling with tendinitis in his knee. I just do not know if he will be able to maintain a high level of play. That is my concern and I do not know if Baynes and Theis can give us enough to compensate for Al. Offensively we have at least 5 guys that can carry us in any game we play not including AL. What we need most from Al is for him to rebound and defend at a high level. We do not need much more than his 12 PPG to win.
Nothing to be done now other than maybe pick up a body like Gortat. I think they're trying to limit Al's minutes but it's been hard with Baynes out. At the end of the season we'll know more about Al's future and what we do or don't need.
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Re: I'm clueless
by gyso Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:18 pm
cowens/oldschool wrote:Whatever bob I wouldn’t tear apart the team....
I'm with you, Cow. Keep the band together.
We can add a big through the MLE and/or by the draft.
_________________
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Re: I'm clueless
by wideclyde Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:27 pm
With a roster spot open, Baynes injured and also to try to protect Horford's minutes I do not understand not signing one of the buy out centers immediately.
None of these guys will be signed for next season, but drives me crazy to be talking about next season now with 25 games and the playoffs left in this season.
None of these guys will be signed for next season, but drives me crazy to be talking about next season now with 25 games and the playoffs left in this season.
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Re: I'm clueless
by cowens/oldschool Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:41 pm
gyso wrote:cowens/oldschool wrote:Whatever bob I wouldn’t tear apart the team....
I'm with you, Cow. Keep the band together.
We can add a big through the MLE and/or by the draft.
....and he might already be on the roster
Last edited by cowens/oldschool on Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:29 am; edited 1 time in total
cowens/oldschool- Posts : 27590
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Re: I'm clueless
by cowens/oldschool Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:51 pm
dboss wrote:atcross wrote:I can't help but notice that these conversations become more active when Horford or Baynes is out. We have a pretty solid (pun intended) true center in Baynes. He's not 7'2" and not a high scorer. But it seems one of the complaints is we have too many scorers. Horford is showing a little age and Theis is a bit undersized. But between them, when healthy, those three represent the position pretty well. Perk wasn't a superstar but we won with him. I can't see giving up pieces unless we know we will lose them anyway. Williams could be as good as a couple of those premier centers in a year or two anyway.
The only concern that I have regarding the Celtics and their ability to get to the big dance this year begins and ends with AH. The focus on offense is because last year despite a willing core of young guys we did not have enough offensive punch. With Kyrie back and now a healthy GH, offense should not be a problem.
Baynes played around 20 MPG last year and I expect he will be a major factor for us. The numbers indicate that the further into the playoffs AH goes the more his play declines. Let's look at a few numbers.
2018 playoffs
Bucks Round 1 (18.1 ppg and 8-7 rebounds
Sixers Round 2 (15.4 PPG and 8.6 rebounds
Cavs ECF (13.6 PPG and 7.6 rebounds
2017 Playoff
Bulls Round 1 (15.3 PPG and 8.6 rebounds
Wizards Round 2 ( 16.7 PPG and 6.6 rebounds
Cavs ECF (12.4 PPG and 4.2 rebounds
2016 Playoff (with Atlanta)
Celtics round 1 (12.5 PPG and 8.5 rebounds
Cavs round 2 (14.8 PPG and 3.2 Rebounds
Al tends to wear down in the playoffs. This year he has been struggling with tendinitis in his knee. I just do not know if he will be able to maintain a high level of play. That is my concern and I do not know if Baynes and Theis can give us enough to compensate for Al. Offensively we have at least 5 guys that can carry us in any game we play not including AL. What we need most from Al is for him to rebound and defend at a high level.
We do not need much more than his 12 PPG to win.
Right, he’s a glue guy that can make the right play and the big play, but is not the workhorse that carries a team on his back, however his defense is crucial, very effective and does not always show up in the stats. If GH is back to OG original gangster and with 2 J’s ready to up their game for playoff run and big game Kyrie, I agree with you, we do not need a lot of offense from Al. I love the way this team is coming together right now and our best basketball is right ahead of us....
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