Kyrie and buying into the Celtic Pride Mystique

This week I have had a lot of time to think about this Celtic team and what the heck is going on. At the beginning of the season, I was thrilled to hear Kyrie Irving pledge his allegiance to the Celtics. The ad’s on televisions with his dad, the wearing of number 11 and wanting to be the last one to wear it, the Christmas game where he played out of his mind and, at the end of the game, pulled on his jersey and pointed to the Celtic name. It was all so “KG” like to me.

Then I thought of the ups and downs of this team all year, the embarrassing losses to teams with no where near the amount of talent that is on this team. Then the sarcastic interviews about the future, the all star silliness, the AD conversations that almost seemed to piss Kyrie off more and more. I began thinking, how
Would Bill Russell, John Havlicek, Larry Bird, Paul Pierce, KG, have acted. Everyone of those players, to this day, has said what an honor it was to play on such a storied team.

So, my question is, do you think Kyrie has bought into this? Is he proud to be a Celtic? Or is it just, where can I do what I want to do when I want to do it, be the KIng, and have no one bother me. I hate even thinking this way, I love to watch Kyrie play, but if he does not want to be here and build a winner, my opinion is, let him go. Someone out there willl come along, take his place, and who knows, maybe win that #18.

I have such mixed feelings about this subject, but I am a Celtic fan through and through. I bleed green and I want him to bleed green too

RosalieTCeltics

You are not too far off on your assessment. You were also kind not to mention the phone call to LeBron!

112288

Rosalie,

Just my guess, but I don't think Kyrie buys into the whole idea of Celtic Pride. I'm not sure that's an issue, though. When you think about it, in his lifetime, The Celtics are just a team that won a title once. For guys in Kyrie's generation, teams like the Celtics, Packers, or Dodgers are just teams they know used to be on top. But that's probably like most of us hearing that the British used to have a dominant military.

I think the bigger question is does he buy into anything beyond being top dog. From what I think we're seeing, Kyrie is a top 10 player in the league. What he wants, however, is to be King on his team. Unfortunately for him, he's just not a leader. I don't think he's got that talent in him. If he would be OK with doing his job, and letting others take the reigns, it should be just fine. I think he would have to play the game the way only he can, take the money, and be happy with that, in order to fit in on the Boston roster longer term. We'll see this off-season.

Regards

What he wants, however, is to be King on his team. Unfortunately for him, he's just not a leader. I don't think he's got that talent in him

spot on!

and he "learned" to lead form Passive aggressive Lebron to boot.

I'm glad other Celtic fans can see the marriage with Irving is not a good one and that we are better team without all his fantastic NBA skills.

I just hope that Ainge can see this now and not let his blind chasing an NBA title right now into doubling down on mistakes he has made over the past couple years.

I fully expect Danny will trade most of our young guns and future draft assets for Davis and then give Irving a max contract too this off-season.

our team will stripped of our youth AND our depth, with only minimum wage vets to fill out our team. And we will be relying on two players who miss on average 20 games a year to lead us.

but what do I know, I don't get paid millions of dollars to run an NBA team

maybe Davis, Irving, Hayward will give us a couple titles in the end and Danny will get praise as being one of the few NBA execs to ever build championship teams over a decade apart.

I do not agree with some that say that Boston is better without Kyrie.
The only significant win this season without Kyrie was against Philadelphia.
Almost all of the games Kyrie has sat out were against non playoff teams.
Kyrie has taken over many games at the end and has dominated close wins including all 4 of Boston's overtime wins this season.

I do not feel Kyrie's personality is a great fit in Boston.
It will significantly hurt Boston's future if Kyrie leaves in July, which is looking more likely each week.
Without Kyrie Boston won't be acquiring AD.

A long and successful playoff run could convince Kyrie to stay in Boston long term.

tjmakz wrote:I do not agree with some that say that Boston is better without Kyrie.
The only significant win this season without Kyrie was against Philadelphia.
Almost all of the games Kyrie has sat out were against non playoff teams.
Kyrie has taken over many games at the end and has dominated close wins including all 4 of Boston's overtime wins this season.

I do not feel Kyrie's personality is a great fit in Boston.
It will significantly hurt Boston's future if Kyrie leaves in July, which is looking more likely each week.
Without Kyrie Boston won't be acquiring AD.

A long and successful playoff run could convince Kyrie to stay in Boston long term.

yes and thats a bad thing

I'll be happy when he goes back to carrying Lebron's jock next season. then he can be your problem

kdp59 wrote:

tjmakz wrote:I do not agree with some that say that Boston is better without Kyrie.
The only significant win this season without Kyrie was against Philadelphia.
Almost all of the games Kyrie has sat out were against non playoff teams.
Kyrie has taken over many games at the end and has dominated close wins including all 4 of Boston's overtime wins this season.

I do not feel Kyrie's personality is a great fit in Boston.
It will significantly hurt Boston's future if Kyrie leaves in July, which is looking more likely each week.
Without Kyrie Boston won't be acquiring AD.

A long and successful playoff run could convince Kyrie to stay in Boston long term.

yes and thats a bad thing

I'll be happy when he goes back to carrying Lebron's jock next season. then he can be your problem

I will take Kyrie at $30m over Rozier for $14m all day.
Kyrie, Lebron, Kuzma and Ingram could be a special team.
No, I do not expect Kyrie to be a Laker next season.

kdp,

I'm not saying the team is better off without Kyrie, I'm just saying he needs to stop trying to be a leader. He hasn't got that quality.

At the risk of getting this topic off course, I can see two Celtic outcomes, for with and without Kyrie scenarios. These are just guesses of best direction on my part, so no one should think I read anything. Just my thinking on how it would work best.

1. Kyrie stays. Leaves Boston with one of the top scorers in the league. Stevens goes in this outcome, because a stronger willed, old-school type coach is the only thing that's going to keep Kyrie and his ego in check. I see Irving as undermining Stevens efforts now, and it won't get better. Nothing wrong with Stevens, it's just one or the other. In this scenario, no pursuit of AD. Combination of Tatum and Brown stay. Rozier goes. At least two draft picks get used on centers.

2. Kyrie goes. Stevens stays, Rozier stays, Celtics strongly pursue AD. At least two draft picks offered in trade, along with Brown and either Horford or Hayward. Tatum in play if Brown retained.

Either Kyrie scenario keeps Boston deep in the playoff picture.

I'll now put away my crystal ball and get back to what really counts; this season.

Regards

It seems like Kyrie is taking a lot of the blame this year.
I think blame needs to be on others before Kyrie.
First to blame is Gordon Hayward.
He has been amazingly bad this year outside of maybe 10 games.
He looks so slow and plodding on the court.
That is not good when you are a wing in the NBA.
Gordon has scored 20 points in 3 out of 56 games.
His offense and defense has been so bad and I don't think he will get better.

Jaylen has tremendous talent and potential but has had a worse year than last year.
12.7 ppg, 4.4 rebs and 1.4 assts for the #3 pick in his 3rd season is nothing special.

Rozier has been dreadful in his role as a non-starter.

Boston could have a special team with or without Kyrie.
Their future is Jaylen and Jayson.

tj,

I don't think Hayward shoulders any of the blame.

Hard to blame a guy trying to come back from a devastating injury. He's not back yet.

I think it's at least next season before we can even guess at what he has left as a career. Too soon.

If you want to debate Hayward's part in this, I believe at the very worst you might make an argument that the team is to blame for letting him get back out there too early.

Regards

NYCelt wrote:tj,

I don't think Hayward shoulders any of the blame.

Hard to blame a guy trying to come back from a devastating injury. He's not back yet.

I think it's at least next season before we can even guess at what he has left as a career. Too soon.

If you want to debate Hayward's part in this, I believe at the very worst you might make an argument that the team is to blame for letting him get back out there too early.

Regards

NYCelt,

It is a guess to say that he came back too early.
Boston and their medical staff apparently don't agree with that assessment.
With their depth and being able to give Jaylen 30-35 minutes per game, why wouldn't Boston hold Hayward out until the all-star break if they felt he wasn't 100%?
Time will tell about this.
As for his play on the court, it has generally hurt Boston and their W/L record.
To me, Hayward doesn't pass the eye test as a significant NBA player.
If Boston cuts his minutes now and gives them to Jaylen, Boston will get better but I don't see how that helps determine what type of a player Hayward will be in the future.

Laying the blame on Hayward is the easy way out. Every single person is different in the way they come back from injuries. Too much comparison to Paul George. I take real offense to putting the blame on him. No one has worked harder and longer than Hayward to get back on his feet and regain the confidence needed to play this game at the level he plays at.

Blame is so easy to toss around. Everyone has a share in this. Even Kyrie, and I love the guy. This is the way you completely lose a team, finger pointing. They should all look in the mirror and say."What can I do to turn this around". Basketball is a team game, no matter how many stars you have, you play as a team.
S


o this finger pointing disturbs me.

At some point, hopefully, Hayward will string together a stretch of games where he looks like or close to, the player he was before. I bet there are times when he looks in the mirror and asks himself "why did I ever leave Utah". Do you think he wants to not be the guy he was? He is a proud guy.

Sorry, unfair assessment as far as I am concerned.

tjmakz wrote:It seems like Kyrie is taking a lot of the blame this year.
I think blame needs to be on others before Kyrie.
First to blame is Gordon Hayward.
He has been amazingly bad this year outside of maybe 10 games.
He looks so slow and plodding on the court.
That is not good when you are a wing in the NBA.
Gordon has scored 20 points in 3 out of 56 games.
His offense and defense has been so bad and I don't think he will get better.

Jaylen has tremendous talent and potential but has had a worse year than last year.
12.7 ppg, 4.4 rebs and 1.4 assts for the #3 pick in his 3rd season is nothing special.

Rozier has been dreadful in his role as a non-starter.

Boston could have a special team with or without Kyrie.
Their future is Jaylen and Jayson.

well, you won't hear me ever praising Hayward......!!!

Leadership like any other role on a team is not something that happens automatically.  You can't order it on line and get next day shipping.  You can't return it because you ran out of money for something else.

Leadership is an elusive concept, an idea,  a perception about someone's ability to influence the actions and reactions of those around him or her.

Kyrie Irving wanted out of Cleveland so that he would not be subservient to Lebron James.  Kyrie wanted his own team.  He came ill prepared for that role but I think it is still one that he can grow into overtime.  He wants to be a leader.  That is a good thing to aspire to.  That is a positive goal to achieve.

He's made comments that upset the apple cart so to speak.  His comments about young players on this team were no different than comments that Paul Pierce used to make about young players.  His ask me in July comments sent shock waves through the minds of Celtic nation although other Celtics players have always left the door open when it comes to free agency.

The team has been up and down all season and this fuels the notion that Kyrie is not a leader and the team is better without Kyrie.  His productivity this year  stands in stark contrast to the perception about his leadership skills.

Every poster on this board understands that chemistry is the result of a recipe made up of many ingredients.  Everyone should also know that the coach is the one that is responsible for putting that recipe together.
 
Brad Stevens does not believe in having team captains.  Team captains are an extension of the coach on and off the court and they can have a profound impact on the team.  Defining leadership must include having one or two Team Captains.
 
Chemistry issue are not self-correcting.  You cannot always make the sauce taste better by letting is simmer a little longer.  You have to be quite certain that the ingredients  are used in their proper amounts so that they  enhance the flavor.  During this process you cannot throw everything together at the same time.  Certain ingredients must be added at different times.

I;m surprised Brad didn't make Hayward captain...ok beating a dead horse now

and I mean a dead one.


when's the next game, maybe things will look better!

tjmakz wrote:It seems like Kyrie is taking a lot of the blame this year.
I think blame needs to be on others before Kyrie.
First to blame is Gordon Hayward.
He has been amazingly bad this year outside of maybe 10 games.
He looks so slow and plodding on the court.
That is not good when you are a wing in the NBA.
Gordon has scored 20 points in 3 out of 56 games.
His offense and defense has been so bad and I don't think he will get better.

Jaylen has tremendous talent and potential but has had a worse year than last year.
12.7 ppg, 4.4 rebs and 1.4 assts for the #3 pick in his 3rd season is nothing special.

Rozier has been dreadful in his role as a non-starter.

Boston could have a special team with or without Kyrie.
Their future is Jaylen and Jayson.

Hayward has struggled this year but his struggles do not account for Boston becoming a below .500 team on the road and a below .500 team against quality competition.

TJ I think too many people are blaming Hayward.  The most important thing to understand that he has been fighting his way back from a gruesome injury and he looks to be ready to help this team the rest of the way.

During February he averaged 12 PPG and shot 44% from deep and 89% from the line.  He also averaged 4 rebounds ans 3.6 assists.  He only took 8 FG per game.  I'll take that.

Jaylen has struggled shooting the ball this year but let's not turn this into a meltdown.  His scoring is down 1.8 PPG and his rebounds are down 0.5 per game.  He also has played 5 minutes less per game.  He is coming off the bench and does not get to play as many minutes with the best players on this team.

I do not think anyone is to blame.

kdp59 wrote:I;m surprised Brad didn't make Hayward captain...ok beating a dead horse now

and I mean a dead one.


when's the next game, maybe things will look better!

I think Al Horford and Kyrie Irving should have been named Team Captains.

dboss wrote:

tjmakz wrote:It seems like Kyrie is taking a lot of the blame this year.
I think blame needs to be on others before Kyrie.
First to blame is Gordon Hayward.
He has been amazingly bad this year outside of maybe 10 games.
He looks so slow and plodding on the court.
That is not good when you are a wing in the NBA.
Gordon has scored 20 points in 3 out of 56 games.
His offense and defense has been so bad and I don't think he will get better.

Jaylen has tremendous talent and potential but has had a worse year than last year.
12.7 ppg, 4.4 rebs and 1.4 assts for the #3 pick in his 3rd season is nothing special.

Rozier has been dreadful in his role as a non-starter.

Boston could have a special team with or without Kyrie.
Their future is Jaylen and Jayson.

Hayward has struggled this year but his struggles do not account for Boston becoming a below .500 team on the road and a below .500 team against quality competition.

TJ I think too many people are blaming Hayward.  The most important thing to understand that he has been fighting his way back from a gruesome injury and he looks to be ready to help this team the rest of the way.

During February he averaged 12 PPG and shot 44% from deep and 89% from the line.  He also averaged 4 rebounds ans 3.6 assists.  He only took 8 FG per game.  I'll take that.

Jaylen has struggled shooting the ball this year but let's not turn this into a meltdown.  His scoring is down 1.8 PPG and his rebounds are down 0.5 per game.  He also has played 5 minutes less per game.  He is coming off the bench and does not get to play as many minutes with the best players on this team.

I do not think anyone is to blame.

dboss,

I agree about Jaylen.
I wonder how good he can be if he knows he's the man for 35+ minutes per game at SG or SF and will not be taken out at the end of games.
I think he would he would be close to a 20 ppg scorer and lock down defender.

Maybe blame is the wrong word.
Who is responsible for this disappointing season?
There have to be some players listed or Boston wouldn't be 5th in the conference.
I know that Gordon is trying the best he can and worked hard to get back to his pre-injury self.
At the end of the day is comes down to how each player is producing and wins/losses.
We can see that some players are producing better than others based on each players expectations.

I don't know why there is such a big drop off in some/many games for Hayward.
He has played decent in some/many of the wins but he has been terrible in their losses.
Most of Boston's other players have pretty similar stats in wins and losses.



By Result GP   MIN    FGM-FGA   FG%  3PM-3PA   3P%   FTM-FTA   FT%   OR   DR   REB   AST   BLK   STL   PF   TO   PTS
In wins    33   25.7    4.6-9.5     .490   1.5-3.5     .414    2.2-2.7    .841   0.9   3.4  4.4    3.6    0.3   1.0    1.6  1.8   13.0
In losses  23   26.3    2.7-8.0     .337   0.7-3.5     .213    1.8-2.0    .872   0.7   4.0  4.7    3.2    0.3   0.8    1.2  1.0    7.9

tjmakz wrote:

dboss wrote:

tjmakz wrote:It seems like Kyrie is taking a lot of the blame this year.
I think blame needs to be on others before Kyrie.
First to blame is Gordon Hayward.
He has been amazingly bad this year outside of maybe 10 games.
He looks so slow and plodding on the court.
That is not good when you are a wing in the NBA.
Gordon has scored 20 points in 3 out of 56 games.
His offense and defense has been so bad and I don't think he will get better.

Jaylen has tremendous talent and potential but has had a worse year than last year.
12.7 ppg, 4.4 rebs and 1.4 assts for the #3 pick in his 3rd season is nothing special.

Rozier has been dreadful in his role as a non-starter.

Boston could have a special team with or without Kyrie.
Their future is Jaylen and Jayson.

Hayward has struggled this year but his struggles do not account for Boston becoming a below .500 team on the road and a below .500 team against quality competition.

TJ I think too many people are blaming Hayward.  The most important thing to understand that he has been fighting his way back from a gruesome injury and he looks to be ready to help this team the rest of the way.

During February he averaged 12 PPG and shot 44% from deep and 89% from the line.  He also averaged 4 rebounds ans 3.6 assists.  He only took 8 FG per game.  I'll take that.

Jaylen has struggled shooting the ball this year but let's not turn this into a meltdown.  His scoring is down 1.8 PPG and his rebounds are down 0.5 per game.  He also has played 5 minutes less per game.  He is coming off the bench and does not get to play as many minutes with the best players on this team.

I do not think anyone is to blame.

dboss,

I agree about Jaylen.
I wonder how good he can be if he knows he's the man for 35+ minutes per game at SG or SF and will not be taken out at the end of games.
I think he would he would be close to a 20 ppg scorer and lock down defender.

Maybe blame is the wrong word.
Who is responsible for this disappointing season?
There have to be some players listed or Boston wouldn't be 5th in the conference.
I know that Gordon is trying the best he can and worked hard to get back to his pre-injury self.
At the end of the day is comes down to how each player is producing and wins/losses.
We can see that some players are producing better than others based on each players expectations.

TJ I think most of the fault lies with Coach Stevens.  I know a lot of people will not agree with this but I have never seen a bad team that did not have the coaches imprint on them.

A lot of it is subtle but sometimes it smacks you in the face.

I do not like the lineup.  I have had more than my share of disagreement about the validity of the Celtics record all year long.  The quality of their record vs the quality of opponents, their inability to be at least average on the road.  Their  inability to beat chump teams.  Who plays and who does not has a lot to do with it.

No I do not like the starting  lineup because that mostly impacts chemistry.  I do not like the reliance on 3 point shooting when it allows the team to not maximize their offensive potential in other areas,  I do not like the constant shuffling in and out of the lineup like I am watching a college game.  I do not like the lack of discipline and accountability when players are not doing their jobs.  

Every single one of these things begin and end with coaching.  I do not like the way our so-called veterans are quick to criticize a younger player when they make a mistake even though they are making the same mistakes.  Too much hypocrisy at work here.  As a coach you cannot control the final result but you can control the process.

All of these players need to be coached and they need a firm hand when things head South.

damn tj breaking it down are ya.

Losses are rarely the result of one player not playing well. Shit has a tendency to stink if you find yourself in the vicinity.

I wonder, Dboss, if anyone is watching the game and zeroing in on Hayward and how many times he gets the ball. You. Know that this has been something I watch closely. I am not saying he is playing great an everyone else is not, he bears some guilt here too. But, how many times is he in the corners, or at the top of the key, arm up, and never given the ball. This has been going on for a while.

As I said before, this blame game is getting old

Brown has played 30 or more minutes this year in 11 games and is averaging 16 PPG.

Smart has played 30 or more minutes this year in 16 games and is averaging 11.3 ppg

Free Jaylen Brown and needs to start at the 2 guard. Smart is truly a terrific player but he is playing out of position. He is not a shooting guard. Jaylen is.

If Boston does not fix this problem they are dead to rights.

RosalieTCeltics wrote:I wonder, Dboss, if anyone is watching the game and zeroing in on Hayward and how many times he gets the ball.  You. Know that this has been something I watch closely.  I am not saying he is playing great an everyone else is not, he bears some guilt here too. But, how many times is he in the corners, or at the top of the key, arm up, and never given the ball.   This has been going on for a while.  

As I said before, this blame game is getting old

Rosalie we watched a game recently and both recognized that his teammates would not pass him the ball. They were freezing him out. I was pissed.

GH is ready to play more minutes and you have to get him more shots. I love the kid.

Dboss, I am 100% with you that Jaylen should start at sg, and Smart she come on as backup pg.

I do like Gordon a lot, but he just has not made enough shots. His shooting numbers have been creeping up and his passing better. He shot 44% from three in February. But he has a ways to go. Next year we'll be thrilled to have OG back in form. This year will be frustrating for a while.

Re Kyrie, he is taking a lot of abuse for not being the alpha dog whose bark is loud enough to galvanize the team. I wish he were. But he is not. Still, he is a fine, fine player and a boon to the team. We are not losing because of him. He passes enough. The other guys are just not sinking their shots.