Closing Thoughts on "The Last Dance"

I just wanted to post this and see where it goes.  First of all I thought this whole series was riveting television.  It came at a time when there was no sports on television except Korean baseball.  ESPN has done an incredible amount of heavy lifting in the world of sports since it started in the late 1970's.  They have catapulted sports into the mainstream of all of our lives.  And as the first letter of their moniker reveals, have taken sports to a level of Entertainment none of us would have ever imagined possible 40 years ago.  ESPN has developed several niches in those 40 years.  One of which is the sports documentary.  I think what they have done with the 30 for 30 series is absolutely amazing as I have not seen a poorly done one of those ever no matter what the sport.  

I'm going to say I wished this documentary went on for another 10 episodes.  But then if you look at how the Bulls did it, they cut out at the right time.  There was a hint at the end the '98 playoffs it would maybe go for one more year, but it never materialized.  So 10 episodes was probably the perfect number.

With all the fallout from the episodes and extra reporting on what we just saw, etc., the talk of Michael being the greatest of all time has been beaten like a dead horse by those whose job it is to run things into the ground.  They have done an excellent job I might add (can't find the sarcasm emoji).  But this is where they begin to get off track IMHBAO.  

For what Michael has done for the game and everything around it, he is the whole package.  He is the best and the greatest of all time.  The NBA of the 90's and everything that was passed on to him from Magic and Larry from the pulling the NBA out of the muck of the 70's was taken by him and run at light speed to a whole new world.  Players are now making unimaginable salaries just for filling arenas, selling shoes and throwing a round ball in a slightly larger round hoop at 10 feet above the ground...and Entertaining us.

However, to ask the question by comparing LeBron to him is absolutely the most ludicrous thing I can imagine.  Let's get this straight.  LeBron will finish in the Top 10 of all time, no question.  I have no problem with that.  But to imply that LeBron is #2?  Right now?!  Please.  I think I just threw up in my mouth.

I'm pretty sure almost everyone here will agree Larry Bird is one of the greatest of all time and deserve Top 10 status.  No question.  But objectively and honestly, he's in the 2nd Top Five.  Probably right around #7 is where I would place The Legend IMHBAO.  I don't even think he would disagree with that knowing who's above him.

LeBron is right around that.  I would generously give him 6th right now.  But honestly no more.  You've got Shaq, Kobe, Kareem, Russell and MJ above that.  All those guys have 5 titles or more and records out the wazoo.  

You could really have a comparison between Michael and Bill.  The problem is they were two completely different eras of the NBA.  The 60's was where they played for love of the game.  It was all about basketball.  No sponsors, no tv, no shoes, no brands, no ESPN, no money, none of that.  

Michael's era was about the whole package.  Almost the complete opposite.  And he was by far the best one to carry that torch.  And let's be honest.  He knocked that out of the park and into orbit.  Both eras loved the game.            

People are amazed at Michael's Finals record of 6-0.  Well, Bill went 11-1. (Hawks in '58) Michael was undefeated but stopped at 6.  Well, there were only 2 teams in the league during the 60's and the Finals was the Best of 1 at the Boston Garden. (Again, sorry, no sarcasm emoji)  The 90's you had 4 rounds, 3 of which were Best of 7.  Well the talent pool was so restricted in the 60's that every game, regular season and playoffs, was like playing Game 7 of the Finals.  Half of your season in the 90's (and to the present) can easily be described as Cupcake Central.  The Ghost of Sam says you could easily cut 8-10, heck, maybe even half of the franchises out of the league right now and no one would skip a beat or care.  But I digress.  

Until Lebron wins at least 2 more titles, 6th place is about as reasonably and logically high as you can place him.  Don't get me wrong either.  LeBron is up there.  He has a chance to achieve maybe Kareem-like status with 2 more Finals wins.  That would make him 5-5 for Finals.   Top 10 lock.  But second tier.  Top 2nd Tier right around Larry right now.  But let's end the Michael vs. LeBron debate once and for all.    

And by the way, where does one put Big Shot Bob Robert Horry?  And Sam Jones for that matter?!  

Anyway, just some thoughts.  Tapping out!  Hope everyone is well!  

db

Sorry, Just realized I left off Magic in the Top 5. Somebody's got to go. So LeBron/Larry 7/8?

db

No way would I have Shaq or Kobe ahead of Bird.

cowens/oldschool wrote:No way would I have Shaq or Kobe ahead of Bird.

----------- me neither. utter nonsense

They changed the rules to help Jordan. They changed them to limit me----Wilt Chamberlain

I get into this with my middle son and it all comes back to the criteria used. If you are going by strict total number of championships won, then you have to reload and it's a Celtic dominated Top 10. Overall/All Facets of the game on the court and off, it's Jordan, modern era vs. early era, complete player/multi-dimensional, etc.

A very small number would be in the Top 10 in all possible categories you could conjure up. But it's fun to speculate. I just get tired of Russell blatantly being passed over and not getting the credit he and his teams are due. It's like the 60's never happened when these topics come up. Might as well give back all our titles from the 60's. That would make the rest of the league happy.

db

jrleftfoot wrote:They changed the rules to help Jordan. They changed them to limit me----Wilt Chamberlain

Great post. Wilt was an absolute freak of an athlete. I hate and love these discussions. How can people leave out Wilt, or Oscar, or Elgin?? Ranking is an impossible task.

btw - anyone have link to binge watch last dance?

MJ remains the most talented and gifted player I have every seen.  But he can never be the GOAT.  Never.  That designation belongs to William Felton Russell.  

Many times we look at players and try to compare them but too many times we try to compare a SG to a center or a center to a forward, etc.  Comparisons like those will always be inherently flawed.

Some players are so good that it is impossible to overlook them.  Lebron James is that kind of player.  He is in my top 5 regardless of position and era.

Lebron, Kobe and MJ ranked 3r, 4th and 5th in points.

Lebron will pass Karl Malone likely and only Jabbar will be above him.

Lebron is ranked 8th all time in assists.  MJ and Kobe are not even in the top 25.  

Lebron has better rebounding numbers than both of them.

Lebron slowed down a bit last year as father time is not to be overlooked.  He still managed to average 25.7 ppg, 10.6 assists and 7.9 rebounds in year 17 of his career.  He is clearly one of the best players that ever played the game.

jrleftfoot wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:No way would I have Shaq or Kobe ahead of Bird.

----------- me neither. utter nonsense

Me neither...especially Kobe...

dbrown4 wrote:I get into this with my middle son and it all comes back to the criteria used.  If you are going by strict total number of championships won, then you have to reload and it's a Celtic dominated Top 10.  Overall/All Facets of the game on the court and off, it's Jordan, modern era vs. early era, complete player/multi-dimensional, etc.

A very small number would be in the Top 10 in all possible categories you could conjure up.  But it's fun to speculate.  I just get tired of Russell blatantly being passed over and not getting the credit he and his teams are due.  It's like the 60's never happened when these topics come up.  Might as well give back all our titles from the 60's.  That would make the rest of the league happy.    

db    

dbrown

Isn't a championship ring a team honor ? - NO argument from me though - the Celts were without question the most talented team and their record during the Russell years certainly reflects that. As far as the 60's getting downplayed by some (including me) - its simply a case of noting just how inferior the talent level was back during the Russell years, Sorry - but it's just a case of what 60 or 65 years of evolement have done to basketball and lifes standard of living in general.

swish

Hi,
Getting back to the subject of the thread.
One thing that irked me. On several occasions they (creators of the show) pushed MJ onto pedestal of the greatest on the account that he won 3 in a row. But they conveniently omitted to mentioned a player who did it 8 (!) times in a row.

As for Lebron vs MJ or whoever, it's a matter of opinion. Mine is that Lebron hasn't reached MJ's level and most probably never will.

AK

Good points, swish! I was looking at it from take Russell out of the Celtics and would they have still done what they did?

What the Bulls did in the 90's era was remarkable. And they probably would have rivaled the 60's Celtics if MJ hadn't checked out mid stream.

The 60's guys didn't have all the additional, non-basketball/off-court riff-raff to deal with. They played basketball. If you dropped the 60's Celtics into the 90's, would Bill had to go play Lacrosse for a couple of seasons to get the cobwebs out? Who knows! Jordan had much more pressure on his shoulders I would guess.

db

What was surprising to me was how many games they won in championship series where the score was in the 80’s. Didn’t see any blowouts, a lot of close games and it’s not like they were going against great defenses either. Jeff Hornacek having to cover Jordan or Pippen isn’t exactly a good match up for the Jazz, and they couldn’t even break 100 in a lot of games. It is telling that in their only 7 game series, the Pacers had 3 very good wings in Mullin, Rose and Reggie Miller. I remember that series, I was thinking next best thing to watching Bird beat Jordan, is watching Bird coach a team playing intelligent team basketball, giving Bulls fits and Bulls naturally got every call in crucial 4th. Bulls never came near to as dominating playoff run as 86 Celtics and they played against weaker competition.

dbrown4 wrote:Good points, swish!  I was looking at it from take Russell out of the Celtics and would they have still done what they did?

What the Bulls did in the 90's era was remarkable.  And they probably would have rivaled the 60's Celtics if MJ hadn't checked out mid stream.  

The 60's guys didn't have all the additional, non-basketball/off-court riff-raff to deal with.  They played basketball.  If you dropped the 60's Celtics into the 90's, would Bill had to go play Lacrosse for a couple of seasons to get the cobwebs out?  Who knows!  Jordan had much more pressure on his shoulders I would guess.  

db

dbrown

No way that the Celts would have been as successful without Russell - but then - what team stripped of a super star of his stature would have been as unbeatable ?. While basketball playerrs of all generations have been well compensated - considering the hours worked - the financial rewards and working conditions enjoyed during this present generation far exceed those of the early years when management was pretty much dictatorial .

swish

I see no one listing their personal top 10 in this thread.

so who is brave enough to post one?

not me that's for sure !!!!

This is a new top 10 ranking from ESPN.
I agree with the top 3 they have ranked.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29105801/ranking-top-74-nba-players-all-nos-10-1

Good eye, tj, as that was what started all this in my mind.

And kdp, I was too much of a puss to suggest it, but that's what I was thinking of as well.

I think I can give a Top Ten.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem Abdul Jabber
4. Magic Johnson
5. Tim Duncan
6. Kobe Bryant
7. Larry Bird/Lebron James (Sorry, can't break this one yet)
9. Shaquille O'Neal - changed my mind
10. Wilt Chamberlain

Honorable Mentions: Sam Jones, Robert Horry, George Mikan, Oscar Robertson.

Hard to argue with the ESPN Top Ten except there just isn't enough room. I'd move Robertson up. Possibly Sam Jones. He's not even in the top 74. WTH, Bo!!

I don't see anyone in the 11-20 except Robertson that I would move to the Top 10.

db

1)  Michael Jordan
2)  Bill Russell
3)  Kareem Abdul Jabber
4)  Larry Bird
5)  Lebron
6)  Magic
7)  Wilt Chamberlain
 Hakeem Olajuwon
9)  Shaq
10) Kobe

dbrown4 wrote:Good eye, tj, as that was what started all this in my mind.  

And kdp, I was too much of a puss to suggest it, but that's what I was thinking of as well.  

I think I can give a Top Ten.

1.   Michael Jordan
2.   Bill Russell
3.   Kareem Abdul Jabber
4.   Magic Johnson
5.   Tim Duncan
6.   Kobe Bryant
7.   Larry Bird/Lebron James (Sorry, can't break this one yet)
9.   Shaquille O'Neal - changed my mind
10. Wilt Chamberlain

Honorable Mentions:  Sam Jones, Robert Horry, George Mikan, Oscar Robertson.

Hard to argue with the ESPN Top Ten except there just isn't enough room.  I'd move Robertson up.  Possibly Sam Jones.  He's not even in the top 74.  WTH, Bo!!    

I don't see anyone in the 11-20 except Robertson that I would move to the Top 10.

db  

Explain to me your thought process on how Kobe is ahead of Bird? Duncan was blessed to have a great coach and supporting cast. KG’s stats were better, he led the league in rebounding 4 times, Duncan never did it once. Duncan got to play with David Robinson as a rookie, KG never played with a great 5.

I think on the level of number of championships was always weighing in the back of my mind.  All the Top 10 have incredible stats individually with multiple championships.  So I broke the tie with # of championships won on their clock.

After re-watching some of the 86-88 Celtic key series on NBATV, ESPN, etc., I can see how Bird should/would be above Kobe in the all-around player category.  When they beat the Hawks in Game 7 in Boston in 1988, while it was a dubbed the duel, the Celtics had Larry going off but he also had 4-5 other players helping out.  ATL had Dominique, Doc Rivers, Wittman and that was about it.  Tree was literally a tree. Almost a no-show. ATL really only had Dominique at the end. The Celtics had Larry Bird's shooting, assisting, rebounding, hustle plays, etc.  Still with Larry's guarantee, they won 118-116!  Unfortunately they had the '88 Pistons waiting for them who will finally overcome the 80's Celtic block to the Finals.  

Actually, my 6-8 spots were all pretty tight.  If I had to switch anything, it would be to Bird, Kobe, LeBron in that order.  Bird is definitely the most complete player of those three.

Any honorable mentions for you cowens/old school?  

db

My all time bigs - not listed in any particular order for the years 1969 through 2020

  http://bkref.com/tiny/AwntV

 The balance of front court and back court players.

  swish

    http://bkref.com/tiny/nNL3I

Swish

dbrown4 wrote:I think on the level of number of championships was always weighing in the back of my mind.  All the Top 10 have incredible stats individually with multiple championships.  So I broke the tie with # of championships won on their clock.

After re-watching some of the 86-88 Celtic key series on NBATV, ESPN, etc., I can see how Bird should/would be above Kobe in the all-around player category.  When they beat the Hawks in Game 7 in Boston in 1988, while it was a dubbed the duel, the Celtics had Larry going off but he also had 4-5 other players helping out.  ATL had Dominique, Doc Rivers, Wittman and that was about it.  Tree was literally a tree.  Almost a no-show.  ATL really only had Dominique at the end. The Celtics had Larry Bird's shooting, assisting, rebounding, hustle plays, etc.  Still with Larry's guarantee, they won 118-116!  Unfortunately they had the '88 Pistons waiting for them who will finally overcome the 80's Celtic block to the Finals.  

Actually, my 6-8 spots were all pretty tight.  If I had to switch anything, it would be to Bird, Kobe, LeBron in that order.  Bird is definitely the most complete player of those three.

Any honorable mentions for you cowens/old school?  

db

Actually they also had a 7’ PF Kevin Willis who was a borderline all star and starter for at least 8-10 years, but against us, with Parish and McHale he never effected us like he could on other teams. Actually McHale used to regularly torch Willis in big games, but Willis was definitely a good effective player against most teams.

The honorable mention I would go with 3 players from the 70’s that would always make the right play and played the right way and all 3 were gatekeepers of the 70’s. I definitely like these 3 more than most of that top ten. John Havlicek, Dave Cowens and Walt Frazier. Frazier could play either 1 or 2, actually might be ahead of his time as a scoring point, but so was Oscar and Jerry West. Anyway besides a slick handle and jumper he could get off, he played great defense, was that eras top defensive guard too. I think mainstream forgets about him, but I remember how great those mid 70’s battles with the Knicks were. It was as good as it gets and Frazier used to kill and carry them in the clutch, he was so deadly scoring at crunch time, hated seeing him bring that ball up....

Somehow the 70's Knicks have carried themselves into the 2020's with the most valuable NBA franchise. Still don't get it. The market is so huge you get people for generations that still love and support them even though there isn't/wasn't much to cheer about for near 50 years. Dave Debusschere isn't walking through that door.

The Ewing era unfortunately was derailed by the Bulls and Pacers. So I'd give it a slight blip in that span but that's about it.

db