Trade Talk

Question:

When you have the salaries out of whack such as GH vs. MT, do both sides have to add to trade to make it work via CBA?  On the surface it would appear IND would have to add, not us.  

Someone had said before in this thread or another that GH made more yet we would need to add to it to trade with IND.  Maybe I read it wrong.  Thanks guys.  

db

salary's have to be within about 80% of each other. UNLESS the team bringing in the bigger contract has cap space. as an example, lets say team A is $10M UNDER the cap. Then they can bring in that $20M salary and only need to send out $10M in the trade.

gyso can give you the exact numbers.

so if the highest contract is $20M, the combined salaries need to be at least $16M going back if both teams are over the cap.

the reason a Hayward trade is so hard is three fold.

First his $34M salary mean we need to bring back something in the range of $27M in salaries.

second Hayward will be on an expiring deal, so he could leave his new team after the season for nothing as an UFA.

Third, Haywards recent injury history. Frankly I don't see any NBA teams willing to tkae on his Max salary with his injury problems

for all those reasons, I think Hayward will be here next season. The best bet is he stays healthy and looks like the player the Celtics thought he would be next season and then he's willing to give the team a discount on a 2-3 year extension.

And by team with the bigger contract, you mean same year comparison, not total value of the contract? (By that I'm getting at GH may have $34Mil left on his contract for one more year. There's a guy we want with $20 but he's got 3 more years left on his contract. Year by year $34M vs. $20M we have the bigger contract. Contract vs. Contract they have the "bigger" contract.)

db

the NBA looks at the current season salary in most cases and not future contract value.

One big exception is when a players signs an extension, like Brown did this year. IF the Celtics would have signed him and then traded him last season at the trade deadline, they use some value that includes that new deal.

gyso is the guy with all the detailed answers on the cap, I only know enough to be close (or wrong).

Hi,
For GH Celtics have to get minimum 25.66M (75% +100K) in a trade.

AK

A couple of Celtics trades here, and other speculation.

One was Boston signs 35 year old Paul Milsap as a free agent.

One that isn't crazy is Kemba + Kanter for LaMarcus Aldridge + Dejounte Murray + #11 pick.

We'd then have the #11, #14, #26 and #30.  We could package #11 + #14 and move up very nicely.  

Aldridge is also 35 years old, so he'd be a rental too.




Bob


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Bob

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https://hardwoodhoudini.com/2020/10/10/boston-celtics-nance-not-love-target/



Boston Celtics rumors: Larry Nance, not Kevin Love, a possible Cavs trade target


by Andrew Hughes

15 hours ago



All along the Houdini has pegged Kevin Love as the top Boston Celtics from the Cleveland Cavaliers. As it turns out, that may instead be Larry Nance.

John Hollinger recently dropped a major nugget in a piece for The Athletic on what the Boston Celtics may plan to discuss this offseason at the negotiating table with the Cleveland Cavaliers. Shockingly, it does not involve the name Kevin Love at all.

Instead, it appears that Larry Nance is the name the Cs plan on targeting:

“A better but riskier path might be an all-in-one type arrangement, where they trade the 14th pick, Kanter and Poirier, and get back a legitimate frontcourt player in return,” Hollinger wrote. “The most obvious target for such a deal would be Cleveland’s Larry Nance, who could play 4 and 5 for them and who makes $11.7 million, $10.7 million and $9.7 million over the next three seasons.”

It isn’t shocking to hear that Boston is willing to tie draft picks to the contracts of Enes Kanter and Vincent Poirier to bring in an impact player in return. Kanter and Poirier don’t figure to have pronounced roles next season, with Kanter being unplayable in the postseason and Poirier essentially being unplayable all year.

What is shocking to hear is that the Celtics aren’t willing to include that same pick in a deal attached to Gordon Hayward’s deal to bring in Kevin Love and a utility player like Cedi Osman. Given the team’s struggles from the 3-point line this season, Love’s career 37 percent conversion rate would be an asset for the Cs.

Then again, Love is 32 and is on the books for three more seasons. His deal may age poorly given his injury history, and with Boston already so deep in salary cap purgatory, perhaps Nance’s $30 million remaining on his deal over the next three years is a wiser investment.


Bob
MY NOTE:  Kanter and Poirier don't make enough between them to cover Nance's $12.7M.  Another question is "would Cleveland trade for more of Danny's unwanted bigs?"  They've already done that once with Zizic.  He lasted 3 seasons with them, never playing even 1100 minutes in a single season, and just signed with Maccabi - Tel Aviv.  So he's out of the NBA, at age 23. Well, if Charlie Brown can keep hoping Lucy will hold the football still while he tries to kick it I suppose the Cleveland front office might trade for some of Danny's bigs again.

From our perspective Nance would fill a hole at athletic 4. If Danny goes for Kevin Love he needs to have his head examined.


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6' 7"/230 lbs?

Pass.

gyso,

do you know the rules for sign and trades of Free agents?

there were threads where this came up and I suggested maybe T. Thompson could be brought here in a sign and trade with Cleveland. But then I read that sign and trades cannot be done with teams that over the tax apron.

see this:

A team acquiring a player via sign-and-trade cannot be over the tax apron after the deal, and can’t have used the taxpayer mid-level exception.


unless Ainge dumps a big contract, the Celtics may be close to that tax apron next season, it appears.

The deadline on Kanter’s player option was originally this Saturday, but league sources tell The Athletic that option deadlines have been postponed until the NBA finalizes the start of free agency, currently projected for December 1. There is always the possibility he will opt-in with the understanding that the Celtics will use his salary for a draft-night trade, so even if Kanter exercises the option it may not ensure he will be in green in 2021. – via Jared Weiss and Jay King @ The Athletic

From Larry Coon's NBA Salary Cap FAQ:

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q92

92. Can a free agent be signed and immediately traded?

The sign-and-trade rule allows teams to re-sign their own free agents for trading purposes. Under this rule the player is re-signed and immediately traded to another team. This is done by adding a clause to the contract stipulating that the contract is null and void if the trade to the specific team is not completed within 48 hours. A sign-and-trade is treated like a single, atomic transaction, and not two separate transactions between which one party can change its mind -- if the trade is not completed, then the signing is invalidated.

To qualify for a sign-and-trade, all of the following must be true:


The player must re-sign with his prior team -- a team cannot include another team's free agent in a sign-and-trade.

The player must finish the preceding season with that team (deals are no longer allowed that sign-and-trade players who are out of the league, such as the sign-and-trade that sent Keith Van Horn from Dallas to New Jersey as part of the Jason Kidd trade in 2008).

The player cannot be a restricted free agent who has signed an offer sheet with another team (see question number 42).

The team receiving the player cannot be above the "Apron" (see question number 20) at the conclusion of the trade1, 2. A team above the Apron can receive a player in a sign-and-trade if the trade reduces the team's payroll and the team finishes the trade below the Apron.

The team cannot receive a player in a sign-and-trade if they have used the Taxpayer Mid-Level exception (see question number 25) that season.1

The trade must be completed prior to the first game of the regular season (sign-and-trades are not allowed once the season begins).

The player cannot be signed using the Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception, the Taxpayer Mid-Level exception, or any exception that cannot be used to offer a three-year contract (see question number 25).

A sign-and-trade deal can be made with a free agent who has been renounced (see question number 39), as long as all the above criteria are met. Sign-and-trade contracts must be for at least three seasons (not including any option year) and no longer than four seasons3. The first year of the contract must be fully guaranteed, but the remaining seasons can be non-guaranteed. The combination of a three-year minimum with a one-year guarantee ensures that the player's new team cannot acquire the player's Bird rights any sooner than if they had signed him directly (if they wanted to re-sign him in less than three years they would first have to waive him, and lose any Bird rights -- see question number 32).

A Designated Veteran contract cannot be used in a sign-and-trade.

The starting salary in a contract signed for a sign-and-trade may be any amount up to the player's maximum, however if the player meets the 5th Year 30% Max criteria (see question number 24) he cannot receive a salary greater than 25% of the cap. Raises are limited to 5%. The player also may be considered to have a lower outgoing salary for trade purposes, which can complicate the trade (see question number 93).

If a sign-and-trade contract contains a signing bonus, then either team can pay it. By default the team that signs the player pays the signing bonus (as with any other contract), but since a sign-and-trade is in essence a contract with the receiving team, the teams can agree that the receiving team will pay it. Any portion that is paid by the signing team counts toward the team's annual limit for cash included in a trade (see question number 98), which in effect limits the portion of the signing bonus that can be paid by the signing team.

If a sign-and-trade contract contains a trade bonus, then the bonus is not earned upon the trade that accompanies the signing, but rather on the first subsequent trade. See question number 96 for more information on how long a team must wait before they can trade a player.

If a team acquires a player in a sign-and-trade, then the Apron effectively becomes a hard cap for the remainder of that season. See question number 20 for details.

1 These teams are free to send players to other teams in sign-and-trade transactions, or to receive players in sign-and-trade transactions who weren't signed-and-traded themselves. Also, the restriction applies only to the sign-and-trade transaction itself -- teams are free to acquire players who had been signed-and-traded in earlier transactions.

2 A different team salary definition is used for determining whether a team is above or below the apron -- see question number 13 for details.

3 Since the contract must be for at least three seasons, the receiving team cannot use the Disabled Player exception to acquire the player. The Disabled Player exception can only be used to acquire players with one season on their contracts (see question number 25).

My comments:  The league's lawyers have pretty much removed all the incentives in making a Sign & Trade transaction.  The Player's Association's lawyers were complicit.

The main advantage was that the receiving team kept Bird Rights and could pay the new player more in a S&T.  The difference in salary was removed, so that removed the free agent player's incentive to change teams in a S&T rather than just sigh as a free agent. Plus the S&T often strips away resources from the receiving team, like what happened when Carmelo Anthony went to the Knicks. Who wants to go to a weaker team?  

Now the S&T hard caps the receiving team at the "Apron" and it takes away the Taxpayers MLE.  There goes the team's incentive.  If a team is over the luxury tax amount then there is no MLE for that season and no good way add salary during the season.

There may be more to it, I'm running mostly on memory.   The prior CBA FAQ had a line in it that explained exactly what was done to remove all the incentives in S&T's.

Sign and Trades can still happen, but they have become rare since the rules changed.  They used to be a Fan-GM's go to move.  Not anymore.

thanks for clarifying the sign and trade rules.

so The Celtics are not likely to be using the sign and trade for any transactions this off-season.

we are left with the taxpayer MLE and regular player trades (that involve sending comparable salaries back).

Dannys' hands are cap tied a bit now, it would seem.

Kemba and Olidipo as our backcourt? Why, because we want to support MGH's orthopedic ward?

kdp,

The current CBA FAQ had a line in it that explains exactly what was done to remove all the incentives in S&T's.  I forgot where it was until I looked in a thread over in the Ongoing Threads and More forum.  It is in FAQ #94.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q94

94. Why would teams or players want to do a sign-and-trade?

Teams benefit because they can get something in return for players they otherwise would lose to free agency. For players the benefits are limited, because a player can receive no bigger contract via sign-and-trade than he can get by signing with his new team directly (four years, 5% raises), and can receive a larger Bird contract or Designated Veteran contract only when staying with his previous team. It also is much simpler for the player to sign directly with his new team, as a sign-and-trade has to be agreed to by three parties rather than two. A player really only needs to seek a sign-and-trade if he wants to go to a team that is capped-out (or doesn't have enough cap room to give the player a high enough salary) and can't sign him directly.

Another factor encouraging a player not to seek a sign-and-trade is that his new team might be weakened by losing players or draft picks in the trade. So while a sign-and-trade is a useful tool when the team does not have the cap room to sign the player directly, the player and his new team have little reason to seek a sign-and-trade when the player can be signed without involving his previous team.

worcester wrote:Kemba and Olidipo as our backcourt? Why, because we want to support MGH's orthopedic ward?

Funny.

Also, unfortunately, right on target.

another guy Ainge might wanna sniff around about is Mo Bamba at Orlando.

Danny's was supposedly interested in him two years at the draft. Orlando spent the #6 pick on him that year, but they extended Vucavic last year for big money. So Bamba has been a BU only.

legit big man who can move, improved his 3 pt and FT shooting in his second year also. He could be a guy that if given minutes becomes a solid NBA starting big in todays NBA. At worst he's a bigger Rob Williams who can shoot a 3.

Bamba has a $5.9M salary for this year and a team option at over $7M for the next one. SO it would require sending salary back with a draft pick.

Kanter and #14 might get it done for Orlando. Would he be of any interest to the fan base?

kdp59 wrote:another guy Ainge might wanna sniff around about is Mo Bamba at Orlando.

Danny's was supposedly interested in him two years at the draft. Orlando spent the #6 pick on him that year, but they extended Vucavic last year for big money. So Bamba has been a BU only.

legit big man who can move, improved his 3 pt and FT shooting in his second year also. He could be a guy that if given minutes becomes a solid NBA starting big in todays NBA. At worst he's a bigger Rob Williams who can shoot a 3.

Bamba has a $5.9M salary for this year and a team option at over $7M for the next one. SO it would require sending salary back with a draft pick.

Kanter and #14 might get it done for Orlando. Would he be of any interest to the fan base?

kdp,

The numbers work with Kanter and #26 too. In fact, 2020 picks have $ impact on trades since they turn into real players for the purpose of this trade.


bob


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The draft is 5 weeks or so up the road. Danny will be talking with GH to determine what he plans to do. Kanter probably opts in because every GM in the NBA was once again reminded that he is a poor defender on one end and a black hole on the other.

I expect to see at least one really big time trade or two separate transactions.

Danny has a lot of balls in the air. The biggest one involves GH.

kdp59 wrote:another guy Ainge might wanna sniff around about is Mo Bamba at Orlando.

Danny's was supposedly interested in him two years at the draft. Orlando spent the #6 pick on him that year, but they extended Vucavic last year for big money. So Bamba has been a BU only.

legit big man who can move, improved his 3 pt and FT shooting in his second year also. He could be a guy that if given minutes becomes a solid NBA starting big in todays NBA. At worst he's a bigger Rob Williams who can shoot a 3.

Bamba has a $5.9M salary for this year and a team option at over $7M for the next one. SO it would require sending salary back with a draft pick.

Kanter and #14 might get it done for Orlando. Would he be of any interest to the fan base?

Bamba was a player I had hoped would somehow land in Boston, but he ended up stuck behind Vucavic in Orlando.

I though he could be the solution at center, maybe still could.

You could make a case for pursuing someone like Bamba over taking a big at 14.

NYCelt wrote:

kdp59 wrote:another guy Ainge might wanna sniff around about is Mo Bamba at Orlando.

Danny's was supposedly interested in him two years at the draft. Orlando spent the #6 pick on him that year, but they extended Vucavic last year for big money. So Bamba has been a BU only.

legit big man who can move, improved his 3 pt and FT shooting in his second year also. He could be a guy that if given minutes becomes a solid NBA starting big in todays NBA. At worst he's a bigger Rob Williams who can shoot a 3.

Bamba has a $5.9M salary for this year and a team option at over $7M for the next one. SO it would require sending salary back with a draft pick.

Kanter and #14 might get it done for Orlando. Would he be of any interest to the fan base?

Bamba was a player I had hoped would somehow land in Boston, but he ended up stuck behind Vucavic in Orlando.

I though he could be the solution at center, maybe still could.

You could make a case for pursuing someone like Bamba over taking a big at 14.

Time for a little armchair GM business

Last year when we lost both AH and KI, I believed the Celtics should have used the bulk of their money to sign free agent Nikola Vucervic. He was an unrestricted FA.

This past season he was 2nd in scoring, 5th in rebounds and 2nd in assists among NBA centers. He would have been a good fit on a team like Boston.

https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/season/2020/seasontype/2/position/center/table/offensive/sort/avgAssists/dir/desc

we'd have been a different team with Vucavic for sure. But no Kemba then.

a quick Bamba centric off-season, only for conversation.

Celtics convince Kanter to take his player option and trade him to Orlando with the #14 pick for M. Bamba.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bambamo01.html


on draft day, Ainge trades #30 pick and C. Edwards contract for a future first round pick.

Celtics draft Tyler Bey at #26.

https://nbadraftroom.com/p/tyler-bey/


Ainge signs Justin Holiday (not JRUE) using the MLE.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/holidju01.html


T. Waters replaces Wanamker on the roster next season.


roster:

Theis
Bamba- Trade
R. Williams
Poirier
G. Williams
Semi
Tatum
Hayward
Bey- #26 pick
Brown
Langford
J. Holiday- MLE
Smart
Kemba
Waters

would that move the needle or just be moving pieces?

kdp59 wrote:we'd have been a different team with Vucavic for sure. But no Kemba then.

That is correct but as you know I would not have signed Kemba Walker. My suggested back then was that you go get a high quality center and I did reference Vucavic and you resign Terry Rozier.

A starting 5 of Rozier and Brown, Hayward, Tatum and Vucavic would have been competitive. Our bench would still be missing a shooter but that is on Danny. He added 7 very unproductive rookies. All of them have big question marks heading into their 2nd season.

Instead, here we are 1 year removed and we still need to upgrade our center and we are concerned about the health of our starting point guard and productivity from our bench.