Congratulations To The Bucks

cowens/oldschool wrote:Another thing, I had mentioned in the later years Russell still won as a lot of his HoF teammates retired and they still won without the stacked roster. I still remember Emmett Bryant, the starting PG on the 69 championship team. He was on the Knicks, but barely played, he was behind the great young Walt Frazier, Dick Barnett and Mike Riordan. Another reclamation project Russell turned around was Don Nelson, all he had was a good jumper, he had just gotten waived by the Lakers. Russell created the phrase making others better, as a kid I was shocked Bryant could start, he wasn’t that good, but playing with Russell, fringe role players could find a home and shockingly win. And that was the old Russell. He was like Brady for years carrying the Patriots with avg skill players.

. Great points Cow and so true!

tjmakz wrote:

Ktron wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

Ktron wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

Ktron wrote:

tjmakz wrote:I call Brady the GOAT of quarterbacks.
There's just no way to compare him to Lawrence Taylor, Butkus, OJ, Rice or other great non quarterbacks.
Brady has comparable numbers to Manning and Brees but his championships is what puts him ahead of other great quarterbacks.
Yes, Bill Russell can be in the conversation of greatest players but the amount of championships is not the determining factor.
Just like it's not for Yogi Berra who won more championships than anyone in baseball history.
Obviously Russell's path to a championship was very easy compared to winning a championship today.
In some championships, Russell's team just had to win one playoff series to get to the Finals.
Russell has about 400 fewer career playoff points than Manu Ginobilli who rarely was even a starter for San Antonio.
Manu was not Russell, but it shows how different it was to win championships in the 1950's and 1960's compared to today.

Because Russell just had to win one playoff series is (A) not true and (B) not relevant. First off, The fact that fewer teams were in the league meant that Boston for instance played the Lakers 6-8 times a year. Also, with so fewer teams qualifying for the playoffs each year, teams could not afford to take nights off during the season. Teams had to play the full 80-82 games and bring it. None of this load management, nights off. Players played more minutes per game. Look at Havlicek minutes in the 70’s for example. Players also did not travel private. Some teams took buses, It was much harder back then. It’s somewhat disrespectful to try an diminish these players accomplishments because there were less teams and fewer playoff games. Unlike the NBA today, These guys had to bring it EVERY NIGHT!

LOL.
It's not relevant that in some of the Celtics championships they only had to play one playoff series before they went to the Finals?
I think Jaylen and Jayson already know how hard it is to win (3) 7 game series just to get to the Finals.
Players back then did play more minutes per game.
But it was against no touch defenses and the offenses were terrible.
Many teams back then shot under 40%.
Yes, it is very difficult to compare players from 60 years ago to today.
The point is that Russell does not deserve the GOAT title because he happened to play in an era in which it was dramatically easier to win championships and that he played on the same team with many of the best players in the league.

You also said it was difficult to compare players from back then an players now but you went on and did it anyway.
My one comparison I will make is this. More does not necessarily mean better.
Just because there was only 8-10 teams back then does not mean you saw a less quality basketball. Quite contrary. If you only have 10 teams and 12 players you end up with the best 120 players in the world. Very little room for scrubs to make a roster.
Now you have 30 teams with 15 on a team. So now we have 350 of the best players in the world add another 2 teams in expansion and now we have 380 players. Do you think all 350-380 players deserve to be playing on this level? I do not. The product is watered down because you have too many teams and too many players. On top of that you have 16 of those 30 teams that make the playoffs and now they have a play in tournament. Do you think all of these teams deserve to be playing for the chip after Barely winning half of their regular season games?
Say what you want about the 60’s and 70’s. They played harder and unlike today, you were seeing the best of THE best.

This is fantasy.
With the explosion in the popularity of basketball all over the world over the last 3 or 4 decades means there are so many kids vying to make an nba roster.
The talent level needed to make it to the nba is incredibly high.
Bill Russell never played in the 1970’s. Why are you referencing the 70’s?
Watching basketball from the 1950’s and 1960’s seems more like the WNBA than the NBA.
Try to find a video of Cousy dribbling the ball between his legs.
I’m not picking on just him.
The talent level back then was so limited.
Yes the games might have been entertaining because all teams had low talent players compared to today’s players.
Players 60 years ago played harder? How?
Do you know how hard it is to play perimeter defense in today’s NBA?
Not just having to switch on every play, but with the incredible ball handling and 35 foot range of today’s players, playing hard is essential for every player on every play.
Watch some YouTube videos to see how hard the defenses played in the 50’s and 60’s.
I’ve watched plenty of them. It’s not hard at all. Especially in the 1950’s.

You’re just exposing your level of ignorance when it comes to basketball. You continue to compare a player playing in 63 to a player playing in 2020 and at the same time saying you’re not. Well again you cannot and its silly to keep trying to make the comparisons. What one can do is watch todays game and see that there is very little defense being played. (Hard to play perimeter defense? That’s laughable. I watch Steph and others come past half court without being as far as breathed on foh.) What one can do (without comparing player talent level) is go on you tube or wherever and see the kind of defense that was played back in the 60’s-80’s and tell the difference-if you care to.
You want to compare Cousy to Westbrook go ahead, again its dumb. The players who played back then played against the best players who played back then. Just leave it at that and stop making disparaging remarks about talent level and abilities that you nor I know very little about.
So what if they played 2 playoff series back then. Today they play maybe 4? 1 plays 8 thats a joke. 2-7 that’s a joke. The intensity and level of play is at its peak in the conference finals and the finals. Those other series before that for the most part are in place for $ purposes and most of those teams don’t even belong in the playoffs. No we have the play-in and you think that brings a better brand or level of basketball? More players doesn’t necessarily mean you’re getting better talent. Watch enough of the NBA today and one can see it.
I never said Bill Russell played in the 70s the players I mentioned that are HOFers played in the 60’s and part of their careers were in the early 70’s. You think there is that big of a difference then tell me where.
Finally, The talent level to make it in the NBA today is not even a stringent as it is as it was back in the 80’s. A lot of these players playing today wouldn’t make it out of training camp if they were lucky enough to get drafted. We have more stiffs today then ever. How long have you been watching again?

You made my point for me about playing perimeter defense.
Defenders can barely touch offensive players like Curry.
Offensive players are so unbelievable skilled in today's game in shooting and with the ball in their hands.
It's very hard to guard with the offensive schemes.

I play in a big basketball league in Tampa.
There are some former NBA players in that league, including John Henson who was in the NBA up to last March.
I can't believe how good and dominant some of these guys are and that they can't make an NBA roster.
John talked about how hard it is for a big guy to switch on guards.

Again, this conversation is not about the 70's and 80's.
We were talking about Bill Russell and in the era that he played vs. today's game.

They barely touch Curry because they can’t hand check not because they’re unable to defend him. He’s not being defended when he and others are bringing the ball up court and are met for the first time by a defender at the top of the key. THAT IS NOT DEFENSE. THEY DONT PLAY DEFENSE TODAY IN THE NBA!!! With that i give up because, and i may get in trouble for this but ill say it anyway, YOU are a numb skull!

tjmakz wrote:

jrleftfoot wrote:Bill  Russell won NCAA and Olympic titles and 11 championships in 13 years in the NBA.( He won the NCAA title with the University of San Francisco Dons, for cripes sake.) One of those NBA  championships, he was the player-coach. He flew commercial or took the train as opposed to today's private jet travel and, oh yeah, he played in an era when black men were treated like dirt, not just in the south, but all over the country,  and fought for civil rights and his own dignity as a human being his entire life.  As far as his basketball proweaa is concerned,it was an era when centers were on top of the food chain and he ate more than anybody. I don't know whether Babe Ruth was the GOAT or not, because I didn't see him play. Anybody that didn't see Russ play is engaging in mental masturbation when they express an opinion on his ability and value. Comparing players from different sports, and/or eras is foolish. The only way to gauge a player's relative worth is by comparing them to their contemporaries.There are, otherwise, too many variables. Statistically speaking, Ruth hit more home runs than entire teams. I can't say he was the GOAT, because I didn't see him play, but I'm not going to denigrate him because he didn't play last week.  The difference between Russell and Yogi is that Yogi was never ( some may disagree, he did win 3 MVPs) the best player on the Yankees in any of those championship years. First, Joe D was, then Mantle. On the other hand, every single teammate of his will tell you that Russell was the heart and soul of every one of eleven championship teams. Saying he's not in the conversation for the greatest of all time is ludicrously presumptuous. By the way, Russell was an olympic high jump champion ,as well. Last time I mentioned that , some ninny informed me that they jump higher today.

Anyone can put Russell in the GOAT conversation.
There's clearly two that are head and shoulders above the others in the 45 years I have been watching the NBA, in my opinion.
Jordan and Lebron.
Kareem definitely should be in the GOAT conversation but I did not see him play with Milwaukee.
Many of my memories of Kareem who was my favorite all-time player is as an older player who wasn't as dominant as his early years.

You. Are. Unbelievable.

tjmakz wrote:

jrleftfoot wrote:Bill  Russell won NCAA and Olympic titles and 11 championships in 13 years in the NBA.( He won the NCAA title with the University of San Francisco Dons, for cripes sake.) One of those NBA  championships, he was the player-coach. He flew commercial or took the train as opposed to today's private jet travel and, oh yeah, he played in an era when black men were treated like dirt, not just in the south, but all over the country,  and fought for civil rights and his own dignity as a human being his entire life.  As far as his basketball proweaa is concerned,it was an era when centers were on top of the food chain and he ate more than anybody. I don't know whether Babe Ruth was the GOAT or not, because I didn't see him play. Anybody that didn't see Russ play is engaging in mental masturbation when they express an opinion on his ability and value. Comparing players from different sports, and/or eras is foolish. The only way to gauge a player's relative worth is by comparing them to their contemporaries.There are, otherwise, too many variables. Statistically speaking, Ruth hit more home runs than entire teams. I can't say he was the GOAT, because I didn't see him play, but I'm not going to denigrate him because he didn't play last week.  The difference between Russell and Yogi is that Yogi was never ( some may disagree, he did win 3 MVPs) the best player on the Yankees in any of those championship years. First, Joe D was, then Mantle. On the other hand, every single teammate of his will tell you that Russell was the heart and soul of every one of eleven championship teams. Saying he's not in the conversation for the greatest of all time is ludicrously presumptuous. By the way, Russell was an olympic high jump champion ,as well. Last time I mentioned that , some ninny informed me that they jump higher today.

Anyone can put Russell in the GOAT conversation.
There's clearly two that are head and shoulders above the others in the 45 years I have been watching the NBA, in my opinion.
Jordan and Lebron.
Kareem definitely should be in the GOAT conversation but I did not see him play with Milwaukee.
Many of my memories of Kareem who was my favorite all-time player is as an older player who wasn't as dominant as his early years.

Please, you’re making shit up now. Kareem was 28 when he went to the Lakers. When did you start watching again?

Ktron and Cow, you are both so right on.

Ktron wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

jrleftfoot wrote:Bill  Russell won NCAA and Olympic titles and 11 championships in 13 years in the NBA.( He won the NCAA title with the University of San Francisco Dons, for cripes sake.) One of those NBA  championships, he was the player-coach. He flew commercial or took the train as opposed to today's private jet travel and, oh yeah, he played in an era when black men were treated like dirt, not just in the south, but all over the country,  and fought for civil rights and his own dignity as a human being his entire life.  As far as his basketball proweaa is concerned,it was an era when centers were on top of the food chain and he ate more than anybody. I don't know whether Babe Ruth was the GOAT or not, because I didn't see him play. Anybody that didn't see Russ play is engaging in mental masturbation when they express an opinion on his ability and value. Comparing players from different sports, and/or eras is foolish. The only way to gauge a player's relative worth is by comparing them to their contemporaries.There are, otherwise, too many variables. Statistically speaking, Ruth hit more home runs than entire teams. I can't say he was the GOAT, because I didn't see him play, but I'm not going to denigrate him because he didn't play last week.  The difference between Russell and Yogi is that Yogi was never ( some may disagree, he did win 3 MVPs) the best player on the Yankees in any of those championship years. First, Joe D was, then Mantle. On the other hand, every single teammate of his will tell you that Russell was the heart and soul of every one of eleven championship teams. Saying he's not in the conversation for the greatest of all time is ludicrously presumptuous. By the way, Russell was an olympic high jump champion ,as well. Last time I mentioned that , some ninny informed me that they jump higher today.

Anyone can put Russell in the GOAT conversation.
There's clearly two that are head and shoulders above the others in the 45 years I have been watching the NBA, in my opinion.
Jordan and Lebron.
Kareem definitely should be in the GOAT conversation but I did not see him play with Milwaukee.
Many of my memories of Kareem who was my favorite all-time player is as an older player who wasn't as dominant as his early years.

Please, you’re making shit up now. Kareem was 28 when he went to the Lakers.  When did you start watching again?

You don’t pay attention to anything do you?
I have been watching the NBA for 45 year or so.
I was 6 years old then.
Yes, I missed all of Kareem’s years at Milwaukee.
Why are you so salty and rude?

Ktron wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

Ktron wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

Ktron wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

Ktron wrote:

tjmakz wrote:I call Brady the GOAT of quarterbacks.
There's just no way to compare him to Lawrence Taylor, Butkus, OJ, Rice or other great non quarterbacks.
Brady has comparable numbers to Manning and Brees but his championships is what puts him ahead of other great quarterbacks.
Yes, Bill Russell can be in the conversation of greatest players but the amount of championships is not the determining factor.
Just like it's not for Yogi Berra who won more championships than anyone in baseball history.
Obviously Russell's path to a championship was very easy compared to winning a championship today.
In some championships, Russell's team just had to win one playoff series to get to the Finals.
Russell has about 400 fewer career playoff points than Manu Ginobilli who rarely was even a starter for San Antonio.
Manu was not Russell, but it shows how different it was to win championships in the 1950's and 1960's compared to today.

Because Russell just had to win one playoff series is (A) not true and (B) not relevant. First off, The fact that fewer teams were in the league meant that Boston for instance played the Lakers 6-8 times a year. Also, with so fewer teams qualifying for the playoffs each year, teams could not afford to take nights off during the season. Teams had to play the full 80-82 games and bring it. None of this load management, nights off. Players played more minutes per game. Look at Havlicek minutes in the 70’s for example. Players also did not travel private. Some teams took buses, It was much harder back then. It’s somewhat disrespectful to try an diminish these players accomplishments because there were less teams and fewer playoff games. Unlike the NBA today, These guys had to bring it EVERY NIGHT!

LOL.
It's not relevant that in some of the Celtics championships they only had to play one playoff series before they went to the Finals?
I think Jaylen and Jayson already know how hard it is to win (3) 7 game series just to get to the Finals.
Players back then did play more minutes per game.
But it was against no touch defenses and the offenses were terrible.
Many teams back then shot under 40%.
Yes, it is very difficult to compare players from 60 years ago to today.
The point is that Russell does not deserve the GOAT title because he happened to play in an era in which it was dramatically easier to win championships and that he played on the same team with many of the best players in the league.

You also said it was difficult to compare players from back then an players now but you went on and did it anyway.
My one comparison I will make is this. More does not necessarily mean better.
Just because there was only 8-10 teams back then does not mean you saw a less quality basketball. Quite contrary. If you only have 10 teams and 12 players you end up with the best 120 players in the world. Very little room for scrubs to make a roster.
Now you have 30 teams with 15 on a team. So now we have 350 of the best players in the world add another 2 teams in expansion and now we have 380 players. Do you think all 350-380 players deserve to be playing on this level? I do not. The product is watered down because you have too many teams and too many players. On top of that you have 16 of those 30 teams that make the playoffs and now they have a play in tournament. Do you think all of these teams deserve to be playing for the chip after Barely winning half of their regular season games?
Say what you want about the 60’s and 70’s. They played harder and unlike today, you were seeing the best of THE best.

This is fantasy.
With the explosion in the popularity of basketball all over the world over the last 3 or 4 decades means there are so many kids vying to make an nba roster.
The talent level needed to make it to the nba is incredibly high.
Bill Russell never played in the 1970’s. Why are you referencing the 70’s?
Watching basketball from the 1950’s and 1960’s seems more like the WNBA than the NBA.
Try to find a video of Cousy dribbling the ball between his legs.
I’m not picking on just him.
The talent level back then was so limited.
Yes the games might have been entertaining because all teams had low talent players compared to today’s players.
Players 60 years ago played harder? How?
Do you know how hard it is to play perimeter defense in today’s NBA?
Not just having to switch on every play, but with the incredible ball handling and 35 foot range of today’s players, playing hard is essential for every player on every play.
Watch some YouTube videos to see how hard the defenses played in the 50’s and 60’s.
I’ve watched plenty of them. It’s not hard at all. Especially in the 1950’s.

You’re just exposing your level of ignorance when it comes to basketball. You continue to compare a player playing in 63 to a player playing in 2020 and at the same time saying you’re not. Well again you cannot and its silly to keep trying to make the comparisons. What one can do is watch todays game and see that there is very little defense being played. (Hard to play perimeter defense? That’s laughable. I watch Steph and others come past half court without being as far as breathed on foh.) What one can do (without comparing player talent level) is go on you tube or wherever and see the kind of defense that was played back in the 60’s-80’s and tell the difference-if you care to.
You want to compare Cousy to Westbrook go ahead, again its dumb. The players who played back then played against the best players who played back then. Just leave it at that and stop making disparaging remarks about talent level and abilities that you nor I know very little about.
So what if they played 2 playoff series back then. Today they play maybe 4? 1 plays 8 thats a joke. 2-7 that’s a joke. The intensity and level of play is at its peak in the conference finals and the finals. Those other series before that for the most part are in place for $ purposes and most of those teams don’t even belong in the playoffs. No we have the play-in and you think that brings a better brand or level of basketball? More players doesn’t necessarily mean you’re getting better talent. Watch enough of the NBA today and one can see it.
I never said Bill Russell played in the 70s the players I mentioned that are HOFers played in the 60’s and part of their careers were in the early 70’s. You think there is that big of a difference then tell me where.
Finally, The talent level to make it in the NBA today is not even a stringent as it is as it was back in the 80’s. A lot of these players playing today wouldn’t make it out of training camp if they were lucky enough to get drafted. We have more stiffs today then ever. How long have you been watching again?

You made my point for me about playing perimeter defense.
Defenders can barely touch offensive players like Curry.
Offensive players are so unbelievable skilled in today's game in shooting and with the ball in their hands.
It's very hard to guard with the offensive schemes.

I play in a big basketball league in Tampa.
There are some former NBA players in that league, including John Henson who was in the NBA up to last March.
I can't believe how good and dominant some of these guys are and that they can't make an NBA roster.
John talked about how hard it is for a big guy to switch on guards.

Again, this conversation is not about the 70's and 80's.
We were talking about Bill Russell and in the era that he played vs. today's game.

They barely touch Curry because they can’t hand check not because they’re unable to defend him. He’s not being defended when he and others are bringing the ball up court and are met for the first time by a defender at the top of the key. THAT IS NOT DEFENSE. THEY DONT PLAY DEFENSE TODAY IN THE NBA!!! With that i give up because, and i may get in trouble for this but ill say it anyway, YOU are a numb skull!

You should watch some videos of the NBA in 1959 on YouTube.
Tell me how you are impressed by the quality of play.
Do you even watch basketball or just listen on the radio?

Steph would be a phenom in any era, and Cooz, great playmaker as he was and who lived 1/4 mile from me, couldn't hold a candle to Steph's shooting brilliance. That said, D in the 60's was pretty damn Intense, especislly since almost no one was shooting 3's.

Kitron excellent point on the hand checking, as a kid playing in pick up games, we all used the hand check, that was a key rule that made it so much easier for the offense, then later the 3 point shot evolved to the degree that the game is unrecognizable compared to the 70’s and 80’s. Defense has been taken away to a huge extent and now too many games are won based on which team is hotter from the 3 point line. I think the actual product is not as enjoyable a game as years past and now the refereeing is so damn inconsistent. A lot of things I’m not crazy about in today’s game. Ever see how bad the all star game is now? It’s unwatchable.

tjmakz wrote:

Ktron wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

jrleftfoot wrote:Bill  Russell won NCAA and Olympic titles and 11 championships in 13 years in the NBA.( He won the NCAA title with the University of San Francisco Dons, for cripes sake.) One of those NBA  championships, he was the player-coach. He flew commercial or took the train as opposed to today's private jet travel and, oh yeah, he played in an era when black men were treated like dirt, not just in the south, but all over the country,  and fought for civil rights and his own dignity as a human being his entire life.  As far as his basketball proweaa is concerned,it was an era when centers were on top of the food chain and he ate more than anybody. I don't know whether Babe Ruth was the GOAT or not, because I didn't see him play. Anybody that didn't see Russ play is engaging in mental masturbation when they express an opinion on his ability and value. Comparing players from different sports, and/or eras is foolish. The only way to gauge a player's relative worth is by comparing them to their contemporaries.There are, otherwise, too many variables. Statistically speaking, Ruth hit more home runs than entire teams. I can't say he was the GOAT, because I didn't see him play, but I'm not going to denigrate him because he didn't play last week.  The difference between Russell and Yogi is that Yogi was never ( some may disagree, he did win 3 MVPs) the best player on the Yankees in any of those championship years. First, Joe D was, then Mantle. On the other hand, every single teammate of his will tell you that Russell was the heart and soul of every one of eleven championship teams. Saying he's not in the conversation for the greatest of all time is ludicrously presumptuous. By the way, Russell was an olympic high jump champion ,as well. Last time I mentioned that , some ninny informed me that they jump higher today.

Anyone can put Russell in the GOAT conversation.
There's clearly two that are head and shoulders above the others in the 45 years I have been watching the NBA, in my opinion.
Jordan and Lebron.
Kareem definitely should be in the GOAT conversation but I did not see him play with Milwaukee.
Many of my memories of Kareem who was my favorite all-time player is as an older player who wasn't as dominant as his early years.

Please, you’re making shit up now. Kareem was 28 when he went to the Lakers.  When did you start watching again?

You don’t pay attention to anything do you?
I have been watching the NBA for 45 year or so.
I was 6 years old then.
Yes, I missed all of Kareem’s years at Milwaukee.
Why are you so salty and rude?

You watched him play in his prime years with the Lakers. You said it yourself. Just because he didn’t score as much because he didn’t have to  He was pretty dominant in the mid 80’s when he played against the C’s in 84 85 87 finals. You said you’ve been watching for 45 years. That didn’t  tell me how old you were. I now know you were 6 back then. You’ve learned a little since then but not much more. I’m not salty, I’m just not going to let you disrespect Russell especially when it’s clears that you haven’t watched him play back then. You never saw him compete because you were not even a seed when he retired so stifle yourself. If I appear rude, sorry but you’re talking about Bill Russell with a warped opinion and opinion doesn’t make it fact. Facts are in the record book. look it up and stay the hell off of YouTube.

cowens/oldschool wrote:Kitron excellent point on the hand checking, as a kid playing in pick up games, we all used the hand check, that was a key rule that made it so much easier for the offense, then later the 3 point shot evolved to the degree that the game is unrecognizable compared to the 70’s and 80’s. Defense has been taken away to a huge extent and now too many games are won based on which team is hotter from the 3 point line. I think the actual product is not as enjoyable a game as years past and now the refereeing is so damn inconsistent. A lot of things I’m not crazy about in today’s game. Ever see how bad the all star game is now? It’s unwatchable.

Cow, That’s why I have not watched an all star game in decades. It’s a circus. I’m old school like you. I like Great offense but I also love physicality/great defense.

tjmakz wrote:

Ktron wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

Ktron wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

Ktron wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

Ktron wrote:

tjmakz wrote:I call Brady the GOAT of quarterbacks.
There's just no way to compare him to Lawrence Taylor, Butkus, OJ, Rice or other great non quarterbacks.
Brady has comparable numbers to Manning and Brees but his championships is what puts him ahead of other great quarterbacks.
Yes, Bill Russell can be in the conversation of greatest players but the amount of championships is not the determining factor.
Just like it's not for Yogi Berra who won more championships than anyone in baseball history.
Obviously Russell's path to a championship was very easy compared to winning a championship today.
In some championships, Russell's team just had to win one playoff series to get to the Finals.
Russell has about 400 fewer career playoff points than Manu Ginobilli who rarely was even a starter for San Antonio.
Manu was not Russell, but it shows how different it was to win championships in the 1950's and 1960's compared to today.

Because Russell just had to win one playoff series is (A) not true and (B) not relevant. First off, The fact that fewer teams were in the league meant that Boston for instance played the Lakers 6-8 times a year. Also, with so fewer teams qualifying for the playoffs each year, teams could not afford to take nights off during the season. Teams had to play the full 80-82 games and bring it. None of this load management, nights off. Players played more minutes per game. Look at Havlicek minutes in the 70’s for example. Players also did not travel private. Some teams took buses, It was much harder back then. It’s somewhat disrespectful to try an diminish these players accomplishments because there were less teams and fewer playoff games. Unlike the NBA today, These guys had to bring it EVERY NIGHT!

LOL.
It's not relevant that in some of the Celtics championships they only had to play one playoff series before they went to the Finals?
I think Jaylen and Jayson already know how hard it is to win (3) 7 game series just to get to the Finals.
Players back then did play more minutes per game.
But it was against no touch defenses and the offenses were terrible.
Many teams back then shot under 40%.
Yes, it is very difficult to compare players from 60 years ago to today.
The point is that Russell does not deserve the GOAT title because he happened to play in an era in which it was dramatically easier to win championships and that he played on the same team with many of the best players in the league.

You also said it was difficult to compare players from back then an players now but you went on and did it anyway.
My one comparison I will make is this. More does not necessarily mean better.
Just because there was only 8-10 teams back then does not mean you saw a less quality basketball. Quite contrary. If you only have 10 teams and 12 players you end up with the best 120 players in the world. Very little room for scrubs to make a roster.
Now you have 30 teams with 15 on a team. So now we have 350 of the best players in the world add another 2 teams in expansion and now we have 380 players. Do you think all 350-380 players deserve to be playing on this level? I do not. The product is watered down because you have too many teams and too many players. On top of that you have 16 of those 30 teams that make the playoffs and now they have a play in tournament. Do you think all of these teams deserve to be playing for the chip after Barely winning half of their regular season games?
Say what you want about the 60’s and 70’s. They played harder and unlike today, you were seeing the best of THE best.

This is fantasy.
With the explosion in the popularity of basketball all over the world over the last 3 or 4 decades means there are so many kids vying to make an nba roster.
The talent level needed to make it to the nba is incredibly high.
Bill Russell never played in the 1970’s. Why are you referencing the 70’s?
Watching basketball from the 1950’s and 1960’s seems more like the WNBA than the NBA.
Try to find a video of Cousy dribbling the ball between his legs.
I’m not picking on just him.
The talent level back then was so limited.
Yes the games might have been entertaining because all teams had low talent players compared to today’s players.
Players 60 years ago played harder? How?
Do you know how hard it is to play perimeter defense in today’s NBA?
Not just having to switch on every play, but with the incredible ball handling and 35 foot range of today’s players, playing hard is essential for every player on every play.
Watch some YouTube videos to see how hard the defenses played in the 50’s and 60’s.
I’ve watched plenty of them. It’s not hard at all. Especially in the 1950’s.

You’re just exposing your level of ignorance when it comes to basketball. You continue to compare a player playing in 63 to a player playing in 2020 and at the same time saying you’re not. Well again you cannot and its silly to keep trying to make the comparisons. What one can do is watch todays game and see that there is very little defense being played. (Hard to play perimeter defense? That’s laughable. I watch Steph and others come past half court without being as far as breathed on foh.) What one can do (without comparing player talent level) is go on you tube or wherever and see the kind of defense that was played back in the 60’s-80’s and tell the difference-if you care to.
You want to compare Cousy to Westbrook go ahead, again its dumb. The players who played back then played against the best players who played back then. Just leave it at that and stop making disparaging remarks about talent level and abilities that you nor I know very little about.
So what if they played 2 playoff series back then. Today they play maybe 4? 1 plays 8 thats a joke. 2-7 that’s a joke. The intensity and level of play is at its peak in the conference finals and the finals. Those other series before that for the most part are in place for $ purposes and most of those teams don’t even belong in the playoffs. No we have the play-in and you think that brings a better brand or level of basketball? More players doesn’t necessarily mean you’re getting better talent. Watch enough of the NBA today and one can see it.
I never said Bill Russell played in the 70s the players I mentioned that are HOFers played in the 60’s and part of their careers were in the early 70’s. You think there is that big of a difference then tell me where.
Finally, The talent level to make it in the NBA today is not even a stringent as it is as it was back in the 80’s. A lot of these players playing today wouldn’t make it out of training camp if they were lucky enough to get drafted. We have more stiffs today then ever. How long have you been watching again?

You made my point for me about playing perimeter defense.
Defenders can barely touch offensive players like Curry.
Offensive players are so unbelievable skilled in today's game in shooting and with the ball in their hands.
It's very hard to guard with the offensive schemes.

I play in a big basketball league in Tampa.
There are some former NBA players in that league, including John Henson who was in the NBA up to last March.
I can't believe how good and dominant some of these guys are and that they can't make an NBA roster.
John talked about how hard it is for a big guy to switch on guards.

Again, this conversation is not about the 70's and 80's.
We were talking about Bill Russell and in the era that he played vs. today's game.

They barely touch Curry because they can’t hand check not because they’re unable to defend him. He’s not being defended when he and others are bringing the ball up court and are met for the first time by a defender at the top of the key. THAT IS NOT DEFENSE. THEY DONT PLAY DEFENSE TODAY IN THE NBA!!! With that i give up because, and i may get in trouble for this but ill say it anyway, YOU are a numb skull!

You should watch some videos of the NBA in 1959 on YouTube.
Tell me how you are impressed by the quality of play.
Do you even watch basketball or just listen on the radio?

I went to games at the Garden when tickets were $2-$5.50. That’s how long ago. I watched BB live and yes when I wasn’t there I listened on radio. You weren’t born yet but you swear you know about that era cuz u got YOU TUBE BABY! LOL!!!

TJ I was 9 when Russell won his last championship, the 69 team. I used to watch those games on ABC with Chris Schenkel and Jack Twyman. There were a lot of good/great teams that never got to the Finals. Russell was ahead of his time and made a lasting impression on me and this was him on his last legs. I still remember the amazing run of the 68 team that was the first team to come back from a 3-1 deficit in playoff history, which they did in the ECF’s. I still remember the intensity and tension of those games as a kid and that 76er team was stacked, bigger and deeper than our Celtics at every position, still don’t know how we won. As did the media, when they interviewed any Celtic how they pulled that off, every single comment by a Celtic, all said it was because of Russell, that they didn’t think they could win, but they had to do it, that Russell convinced them that they could do it, and they were as amazed as we all were that they actually pulled it off. At that time it the biggest upset in NBA history....again led by Russell. I cannot convey to you how much of an underdog we were and what respect and reverence all the commentators gave to Russell back in the day, he and Wilt were as big or bigger than Larry and Magic and Jordan, but obviously there was so much less media and 24 hour sports cycles. You can’t get that history/context from you tube, but even as a kid, I can still so easily remember what an iconic figure Russell was. All the superstars at that time in the L spoke of him in such reverence, Jerry West, Oscar, Wilt, Thurmond, and the young up and coming stars like Willis Reed, Walt Frazier, Earl Monroe. They constantly gave Russell mad respect. Even as a broadcaster for years covering the Knicks, Frazier still gives Russell his due constantly whenever he talks about his career in the old days. How as a rookie it was his biggest thrill getting to share the court with the great Bill Russell and how he knew he made it when he could even have a conversation with Russell and Bill knew his name. I remember reading articles that said Russell at the twilight of his career really showed his greatness because of how great he could get his team to play for him and overcome such odds....

Ktron wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

Ktron wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

jrleftfoot wrote:Bill  Russell won NCAA and Olympic titles and 11 championships in 13 years in the NBA.( He won the NCAA title with the University of San Francisco Dons, for cripes sake.) One of those NBA  championships, he was the player-coach. He flew commercial or took the train as opposed to today's private jet travel and, oh yeah, he played in an era when black men were treated like dirt, not just in the south, but all over the country,  and fought for civil rights and his own dignity as a human being his entire life.  As far as his basketball proweaa is concerned,it was an era when centers were on top of the food chain and he ate more than anybody. I don't know whether Babe Ruth was the GOAT or not, because I didn't see him play. Anybody that didn't see Russ play is engaging in mental masturbation when they express an opinion on his ability and value. Comparing players from different sports, and/or eras is foolish. The only way to gauge a player's relative worth is by comparing them to their contemporaries.There are, otherwise, too many variables. Statistically speaking, Ruth hit more home runs than entire teams. I can't say he was the GOAT, because I didn't see him play, but I'm not going to denigrate him because he didn't play last week.  The difference between Russell and Yogi is that Yogi was never ( some may disagree, he did win 3 MVPs) the best player on the Yankees in any of those championship years. First, Joe D was, then Mantle. On the other hand, every single teammate of his will tell you that Russell was the heart and soul of every one of eleven championship teams. Saying he's not in the conversation for the greatest of all time is ludicrously presumptuous. By the way, Russell was an olympic high jump champion ,as well. Last time I mentioned that , some ninny informed me that they jump higher today.

Anyone can put Russell in the GOAT conversation.
There's clearly two that are head and shoulders above the others in the 45 years I have been watching the NBA, in my opinion.
Jordan and Lebron.
Kareem definitely should be in the GOAT conversation but I did not see him play with Milwaukee.
Many of my memories of Kareem who was my favorite all-time player is as an older player who wasn't as dominant as his early years.

Please, you’re making shit up now. Kareem was 28 when he went to the Lakers.  When did you start watching again?

You don’t pay attention to anything do you?
I have been watching the NBA for 45 year or so.
I was 6 years old then.
Yes, I missed all of Kareem’s years at Milwaukee.
Why are you so salty and rude?

You watched him play in his prime years with the Lakers. You said it yourself. Just because he didn’t score as much because he didn’t have to  He was pretty dominant in the mid 80’s when he played against the C’s in 84 85 87 finals. You said you’ve been watching for 45 years. That didn’t  tell me how old you were. I now know you were 6 back then. You’ve learned a little since then but not much more. I’m not salty, I’m just not going to let you disrespect Russell especially when it’s clears that you haven’t watched him play back then. You never saw him compete because you were not even a seed when he retired so stifle yourself. If I appear rude, sorry but you’re talking about Bill Russell with a warped opinion and opinion doesn’t make it fact. Facts are in the record book. look it up and stay the hell off of YouTube.

In the mid 80’s (84-85 season) Kareem was 37 years old.
He was no longer a dominant superstar in the league.
You don’t appear rude, you are rude. Sheesh.
Personal attacks are usually against the rules here.
Why stay off YouTube?
How else can we watch NBA games from years before we were born?

Back to the Bucks, Dave Cowens fronted then Lou Alcindor (now Kareem) of the Bucks in game 7 of the 1974 World Championship Game and held him to 26 points as Cowens scored 28 and grabbed 12 rebounds. the 74 Celtics would have schooled today’s best teams (5 future Hall of Famers - Hondo, Cowens, JoJo, Westphal, Nelson) rounded off by defensive specialist Chaney and rebounder tall Paul Silas. The early-mid 80s Celtics or Lakers would have beaten the 74 Celtics but those were arguably the two best teams to ever play. As for Kareem the sky hook was the best shot ever in the NBA - indefensible once Kareem got to the low post (hence the need to front him in 74). Bob Cousey (announcer at the time) suggested to coach Tom Heinson the fronting idea for game 7 after Kareem had lit up the Celtics for over 30 in each of games 1-6. The rest as they say is “cigar time”.

TheBillRussell
@RealBillRussell
·
Feb 11
Your getting closer
@nba



Bob
MY NOTE:  Ooooh.  Snap!


.

tjmakz wrote:

Ktron wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

Ktron wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

jrleftfoot wrote:Bill  Russell won NCAA and Olympic titles and 11 championships in 13 years in the NBA.( He won the NCAA title with the University of San Francisco Dons, for cripes sake.) One of those NBA  championships, he was the player-coach. He flew commercial or took the train as opposed to today's private jet travel and, oh yeah, he played in an era when black men were treated like dirt, not just in the south, but all over the country,  and fought for civil rights and his own dignity as a human being his entire life.  As far as his basketball proweaa is concerned,it was an era when centers were on top of the food chain and he ate more than anybody. I don't know whether Babe Ruth was the GOAT or not, because I didn't see him play. Anybody that didn't see Russ play is engaging in mental masturbation when they express an opinion on his ability and value. Comparing players from different sports, and/or eras is foolish. The only way to gauge a player's relative worth is by comparing them to their contemporaries.There are, otherwise, too many variables. Statistically speaking, Ruth hit more home runs than entire teams. I can't say he was the GOAT, because I didn't see him play, but I'm not going to denigrate him because he didn't play last week.  The difference between Russell and Yogi is that Yogi was never ( some may disagree, he did win 3 MVPs) the best player on the Yankees in any of those championship years. First, Joe D was, then Mantle. On the other hand, every single teammate of his will tell you that Russell was the heart and soul of every one of eleven championship teams. Saying he's not in the conversation for the greatest of all time is ludicrously presumptuous. By the way, Russell was an olympic high jump champion ,as well. Last time I mentioned that , some ninny informed me that they jump higher today.

Anyone can put Russell in the GOAT conversation.
There's clearly two that are head and shoulders above the others in the 45 years I have been watching the NBA, in my opinion.
Jordan and Lebron.
Kareem definitely should be in the GOAT conversation but I did not see him play with Milwaukee.
Many of my memories of Kareem who was my favorite all-time player is as an older player who wasn't as dominant as his early years.

Please, you’re making shit up now. Kareem was 28 when he went to the Lakers.  When did you start watching again?

You don’t pay attention to anything do you?
I have been watching the NBA for 45 year or so.
I was 6 years old then.
Yes, I missed all of Kareem’s years at Milwaukee.
Why are you so salty and rude?

You watched him play in his prime years with the Lakers. You said it yourself. Just because he didn’t score as much because he didn’t have to  He was pretty dominant in the mid 80’s when he played against the C’s in 84 85 87 finals. You said you’ve been watching for 45 years. That didn’t  tell me how old you were. I now know you were 6 back then. You’ve learned a little since then but not much more. I’m not salty, I’m just not going to let you disrespect Russell especially when it’s clears that you haven’t watched him play back then. You never saw him compete because you were not even a seed when he retired so stifle yourself. If I appear rude, sorry but you’re talking about Bill Russell with a warped opinion and opinion doesn’t make it fact. Facts are in the record book. look it up and stay the hell off of YouTube.

In the mid 80’s (84-85 season) Kareem was 37 years old.
He was no longer a dominant superstar in the league.
You don’t appear rude, you are rude. Sheesh.
Personal attacks are usually against the rules here.
Why stay off YouTube?
How else can we watch NBA games from years before we were born?

Call me rude, I’ll take that. And you are a fake Laker fan who knows very little about the game and less about the team you claim to be a fan of. You also obviously stay on YouTube and did not watch any of the finals in 84 85 and 87. Kareem may have been 37 but the Lakers would not have been playing the C’s and beating them 2 out of 3 without him. I rest my case.

bobheckler wrote:TheBillRussell
@RealBillRussell
·
Feb 11
Your getting closer
@nba



Bob
MY NOTE:  Ooooh.  Snap!


.

. LOL Nuf said!

Ktron wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

Ktron wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

Ktron wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

jrleftfoot wrote:Bill  Russell won NCAA and Olympic titles and 11 championships in 13 years in the NBA.( He won the NCAA title with the University of San Francisco Dons, for cripes sake.) One of those NBA  championships, he was the player-coach. He flew commercial or took the train as opposed to today's private jet travel and, oh yeah, he played in an era when black men were treated like dirt, not just in the south, but all over the country,  and fought for civil rights and his own dignity as a human being his entire life.  As far as his basketball proweaa is concerned,it was an era when centers were on top of the food chain and he ate more than anybody. I don't know whether Babe Ruth was the GOAT or not, because I didn't see him play. Anybody that didn't see Russ play is engaging in mental masturbation when they express an opinion on his ability and value. Comparing players from different sports, and/or eras is foolish. The only way to gauge a player's relative worth is by comparing them to their contemporaries.There are, otherwise, too many variables. Statistically speaking, Ruth hit more home runs than entire teams. I can't say he was the GOAT, because I didn't see him play, but I'm not going to denigrate him because he didn't play last week.  The difference between Russell and Yogi is that Yogi was never ( some may disagree, he did win 3 MVPs) the best player on the Yankees in any of those championship years. First, Joe D was, then Mantle. On the other hand, every single teammate of his will tell you that Russell was the heart and soul of every one of eleven championship teams. Saying he's not in the conversation for the greatest of all time is ludicrously presumptuous. By the way, Russell was an olympic high jump champion ,as well. Last time I mentioned that , some ninny informed me that they jump higher today.

Anyone can put Russell in the GOAT conversation.
There's clearly two that are head and shoulders above the others in the 45 years I have been watching the NBA, in my opinion.
Jordan and Lebron.
Kareem definitely should be in the GOAT conversation but I did not see him play with Milwaukee.
Many of my memories of Kareem who was my favorite all-time player is as an older player who wasn't as dominant as his early years.

Please, you’re making shit up now. Kareem was 28 when he went to the Lakers.  When did you start watching again?

You don’t pay attention to anything do you?
I have been watching the NBA for 45 year or so.
I was 6 years old then.
Yes, I missed all of Kareem’s years at Milwaukee.
Why are you so salty and rude?

You watched him play in his prime years with the Lakers. You said it yourself. Just because he didn’t score as much because he didn’t have to  He was pretty dominant in the mid 80’s when he played against the C’s in 84 85 87 finals. You said you’ve been watching for 45 years. That didn’t  tell me how old you were. I now know you were 6 back then. You’ve learned a little since then but not much more. I’m not salty, I’m just not going to let you disrespect Russell especially when it’s clears that you haven’t watched him play back then. You never saw him compete because you were not even a seed when he retired so stifle yourself. If I appear rude, sorry but you’re talking about Bill Russell with a warped opinion and opinion doesn’t make it fact. Facts are in the record book. look it up and stay the hell off of YouTube.

In the mid 80’s (84-85 season) Kareem was 37 years old.
He was no longer a dominant superstar in the league.
You don’t appear rude, you are rude. Sheesh.
Personal attacks are usually against the rules here.
Why stay off YouTube?
How else can we watch NBA games from years before we were born?

Call me rude, I’ll take that. And you are a fake Laker fan who knows very little about the game and less about the team you claim to be a fan of. You also obviously stay on YouTube and did not watch any of the finals in 84 85 and 87. Kareem may have been 37 but the Lakers would not have been playing the C’s and beating them 2 out of 3 without him.  I rest my case.

I don’t know anyone more of a Lakers fan and NBA fan than I am.
So, you’re attempts to disparage me are 100% incorrect.
I watched every second of the 84, 85 and 87 Finals.
I watch every play of every Lakers game.
Kareem was not a superstar at 37.
He was still a very good player.
Have a good night.

OK.

This has been getting a little over the top.

Let's chill the tone down.

We all good with that?

NYCelt wrote:OK.

This has been getting a little over the top.

Let's chill the tone down.

We all good with that?

It’s a good debate, I’m cool with everything....

Kareem was a freak lasting as long as he did. Fact is Magic could never win another one without him....a lot of times they give Magic too much credit for those Lakers teams, how hard was it to dump off the ball to Kareem in the half court and let him go to work. You were basically at his mercy.

cowens/oldschool wrote:Kareem was a freak lasting as long as he did. Fact is Magic could never win another one without him....a lot of times they give Magic too much credit for those Lakers teams, how hard was it to dump off the ball to Kareem in the half court and let him go to work. You were basically at his mercy.

I've always included Kareem in that short, impossible, GOAT list. I've often thought he is the one.

Any time they change the rules specifically for you, that says something special.

I started this thread to congratulate the Tamba Bay and Tom Brady the greatest football player EVER.

Now I see discussion about Bill Russell, the ultimate GOAT. In that I mean the best ever in any sport at any time in the history of man or woman. That is why he maintains the most hardware. His accomplishments must be understood in the context of the time that he played and the social, political, economic and cultural challenges that he faced. So kiss the ring (One of many) He is the most revered by all. All the great players give him ultimate respect because he is the GOAT!

dboss wrote:I started this thread to congratulate the Tamba Bay and Tom Brady the greatest football player EVER.

Now I see discussion about Bill Russell, the ultimate GOAT.  In that I mean the best ever in any sport at any time in the history of man or woman.  That is why he maintains the most hardware.  His accomplishments must be understood in the context of the time that he played and the social, political, economic and cultural challenges that he faced.  So kiss the ring (One of many) He is the most revered by all.  All the great players give him ultimate respect because he is the GOAT!

Jim Thorpe, Muhammad Ali, Michael Jordan, Jackie Joyner-Kersey, and Simone Biles would all like a word with you

I guess we have gotten off the subject of your original post!