Marcus Smart Does NOT Land On An All-Defense Team

the time off hurt Smart alot, plus, the negative attitude of ref's against him. This is going to light a fire under him this year. These lists are becoming more and more a popularity contest and front runner voting is sickening. Did he slip a little? Yes, but he came back after a pretty serious injury to give the Celtics as much as he could. He has to get his anger management under control, as it does work against him. But, that being said, I love having him on my team. Let's see how the Celtics view this

Bob, The one thing I dislike totally of this generation of basketball and the players is that it is money driven. Owners included.. I remember the stories when Red was confronted by Walter Brown who told him he did not have enough money to make the payroll that certain month. Red found a way of keeping the team together, on the floor, and having the players keep playing, He always found a way, In today's basketball world, they would laugh at them. No $$$, no play.

Smart is in an awkward position where his next contract could put the Celtics in a bind That is, if management does not make the commitment to go into the luxury tax. That is where he becomes easier to deal than to keep The days of one player staying with the same team for his entire career is almost gone. But I could see Smart making a deal to stick around here this is home now

Bobh

I am not surprised that he did not make one of the all defensive teams.  Although this is an individual award It is often reflective of how a team plays defense.

YOY The Celtics gave up 107.3 PPG last season.  That ranked them at #2.  This year they gave up 111.2 PPG which ranked them at #11.  Smarts Def Rating per NBA.Com was 111.3  and that put him at #100

However for players that played 32.9 MPG or more he was ranked at #48  Of the 10 players that made the teams all of them had better Def ratings than Marcus.
Thybulle was a rotation guy but his defense was extraordinary with a def rating of  104.7

I think your disappointment is not based on facts.  While Smart remains a solid defensive player he certainly was NOT a top 10 defender this year.  The fact that Thybulle made the squad as only a 20 MPG guy this year should piss you off that dumbass Danny traded him.  On draft day he was considered to possess elite level defensive skills. On another thread that I am going to post details the transaction that sent him to Philly.

Friggin awards are Bulls**t. ALL of sports, entertainment, Grammys, Oscars etc ALL Bulls**t!!

That’s hilarious!! A millionaire is going to put billionaires in a bind. Gimme a friggin break. Lets not kid ourselves, these owners are not of the same ilk of the Walter Browns of yesteryear. With very few exceptions, these owners don’t give 2 s**ts about their players. In a bind my…..

dboss wrote:Bobh

I am not surprised that he did not make one of the all defensive teams.  Although this is an individual award It is often reflective of how a team plays defense.

YOY The Celtics gave up 107.3 PPG last season.  That ranked them at #2.  This year they gave up 111.2 PPG which ranked them at #11.  Smarts Def Rating per NBA.Com was 111.3  and that put him at #100

However for players that played 32.9 MPG or more he was ranked at #48  Of the 10 players that made the teams all of them had better Def ratings than Marcus.
Thybulle was a rotation guy but his defense was extraordinary with a def rating of  104.7

I think your disappointment is not based on facts.  While Smart remains a solid defensive player he certainly was NOT a top 10 defender this year.  The fact that Thybulle made the squad as only a 20 MPG guy this year should piss you off that dumbass Danny traded him.  On draft day he was considered to possess elite level defensive skills.  On another thread that I am going to post details the transaction that sent him to Philly.

Dboss, with all due respect, put your calculator away and rely on you’re God given eyes. You’ve watched almost every Celtics game just like most here. If you have objectively watched Marcus than there is no way he would not be a top 10 defender.
I hate when people throw numbers around like player def.ratings and rankings. That well is so deep that most people ignore the obvious. If we are going to reduce ourselves to numbers than maybe we should just turn off the TV and wait for the box score.
I don’t believe in awards like this, MVP’s 6 man its BS. However, when I look at the list of players that were picked ahead of Marcus it just reaffirms my beliefs.  ITS ALL BULLS**t!

P.s. You take Thybulle and i’ll take Marcus. Let them play one on one and when the game is over, go getcha boy b/cuz he’s gonna need a ride to Beth Israel.

As just a lay observer it seemed to me that Smart was not playing defense the same way he did in previous years. He seemed to be playing too much hero defense, if there is such a thing. He wasn't consistent in his coverage. He was taking more risks. I think when MS became a starter he lost his 6th man defense mindset. If you watched Romeo you saw that he did a very good job of staying in front of his man (helped by his extra long arms) and recovering when he didn't. But he didn't often foul and he didn't take risks. If his man scored it was contested.

WTH is hero defense? My gawd…talk about over analyzing. He’s still better than more than half the stiffs on that fake All-League Sportswriters poll. Hero defense? I guess being a starter you do have more responsibility but ..no…nice try though. On top of that you’re comparing what he did this season to the small sample given to us by lil lame Lamont AKA, Romeo?

Ktron wrote:

dboss wrote:Bobh

I am not surprised that he did not make one of the all defensive teams.  Although this is an individual award It is often reflective of how a team plays defense.

YOY The Celtics gave up 107.3 PPG last season.  That ranked them at #2.  This year they gave up 111.2 PPG which ranked them at #11.  Smarts Def Rating per NBA.Com was 111.3  and that put him at #100

However for players that played 32.9 MPG or more he was ranked at #48  Of the 10 players that made the teams all of them had better Def ratings than Marcus.
Thybulle was a rotation guy but his defense was extraordinary with a def rating of  104.7

I think your disappointment is not based on facts.  While Smart remains a solid defensive player he certainly was NOT a top 10 defender this year.  The fact that Thybulle made the squad as only a 20 MPG guy this year should piss you off that dumbass Danny traded him.  On draft day he was considered to possess elite level defensive skills.  On another thread that I am going to post details the transaction that sent him to Philly.

Dboss, with all due respect, put your calculator away and rely on you’re God given eyes. You’ve watched almost every Celtics game just like most here. If you have objectively watched Marcus than there is no way he would not be a top 10 defender.
I hate when people throw numbers around like player def.ratings and rankings. That well is so deep that most people ignore the obvious. If we are going to reduce ourselves to numbers than maybe we should just turn off the TV and wait for the box score.
I don’t believe in awards like this, MVP’s 6 man its BS. However, when I look at the list of players that were picked ahead of Marcus it just reaffirms my beliefs.  ITS ALL BULLS**t!

P.s. You take Thybulle and i’ll take Marcus. Let them play one on one and when the game is over, go getcha boy b/cuz he’s gonna need a ride to Beth Israel.

ktron

def ratings are legit. The point that I made that you blew by just like a few too many players being checked by Marcus, is that individual defensive ratings are heavily impacted by the guys that you are playing with. The Celtics defensive rating as a team was down YOY and so was individuals on the team including Marcus. That does not seem like some advanced concept to wrap your head around.

I watched every Celtics game except for 3 Hawks matchups but there are other games on too with other players who also play defense and I watched Thybulle play and he is already an elite level defender.

Marcus was hurt this year and was tasked with starting at the point because all of those missed Kemba games. His defense was impacted by this along with the fact that Boston was just not as good defensively as they were in previous years.

As far as Thybulle is concerned I was not taking him over Marcus so all that man o man crap is incomprehensible. My point was that the Celtics could have had him and MARCUS.

Ktron wrote:WTH is hero defense? My gawd…talk about over analyzing. He’s still better than more than half the stiffs on that fake All-League Sportswriters poll. Hero defense? I guess being a starter you do have more responsibility but ..no…nice try though. On top of that you’re comparing what he did this season to the small sample given to us by lil lame Lamont AKA, Romeo?

I said: "hero defense, if there is such a thing." If you object to my fabricated jargon to make my point, so be it. I gather that if you disagree with an award, they are wrong and you are right. So be it. But if you think Smart was playing the same type of defense as a starter that he did as a sixth man, I think you are in denial. Smart is the quintessential Celtics sixth man. But this last season as a starter he tried to will the Cs to wins with low percentage steal attempts, passes and shots. I don't watch the rest of the players named in awards that much and I don't give a shoot about these individual accolades. But Smart was clearly not the defender this year that he was in previous seasons. As for (lil lame?) Romeo, the first time I saw him play I was impressed with his defense, especially his superb footwork. The coaching staff seemed to agree. If you don't agree, so be it.

Smart could still get up for certain plays/moments, but I would have to agree his defense was not as good as other recent seasons. While we are at it, I have no idea what their rankings are, but Romeo looks like a better defender than Smart to me right now which is why I pray we can further develop him and keep him. He has more length and challenges every shot better than Smart who’s defense I also have loved. Romeo can just get/jump on the opposing shooting hand better, more length and better side to side reactions IMHO.

dboss wrote:

Ktron wrote:

dboss wrote:Bobh

I am not surprised that he did not make one of the all defensive teams.  Although this is an individual award It is often reflective of how a team plays defense.

YOY The Celtics gave up 107.3 PPG last season.  That ranked them at #2.  This year they gave up 111.2 PPG which ranked them at #11.  Smarts Def Rating per NBA.Com was 111.3  and that put him at #100

However for players that played 32.9 MPG or more he was ranked at #48  Of the 10 players that made the teams all of them had better Def ratings than Marcus.
Thybulle was a rotation guy but his defense was extraordinary with a def rating of  104.7

I think your disappointment is not based on facts.  While Smart remains a solid defensive player he certainly was NOT a top 10 defender this year.  The fact that Thybulle made the squad as only a 20 MPG guy this year should piss you off that dumbass Danny traded him.  On draft day he was considered to possess elite level defensive skills.  On another thread that I am going to post details the transaction that sent him to Philly.

Dboss, with all due respect, put your calculator away and rely on you’re God given eyes. You’ve watched almost every Celtics game just like most here. If you have objectively watched Marcus than there is no way he would not be a top 10 defender.
I hate when people throw numbers around like player def.ratings and rankings. That well is so deep that most people ignore the obvious. If we are going to reduce ourselves to numbers than maybe we should just turn off the TV and wait for the box score.
I don’t believe in awards like this, MVP’s 6 man its BS. However, when I look at the list of players that were picked ahead of Marcus it just reaffirms my beliefs.  ITS ALL BULLS**t!

P.s. You take Thybulle and i’ll take Marcus. Let them play one on one and when the game is over, go getcha boy b/cuz he’s gonna need a ride to Beth Israel.

ktron

def ratings are legit.  The point that I made that you blew by just like a few too many players being checked by Marcus, is that individual defensive ratings are heavily impacted by the guys that you are playing with.  The Celtics defensive rating as a team was down YOY and so was individuals on the team including Marcus.  That does not seem like some advanced concept to wrap your head around.

I watched every Celtics game except for 3 Hawks matchups but there are other games on too with other players who also play defense and I watched Thybulle play and he is already an elite level defender.

Marcus was hurt this year and was tasked with starting at the point because all of those missed Kemba games.  His defense was impacted by this along with the fact that Boston was just not as good defensively as they were in previous years.  

As far as Thybulle is concerned I was not taking him over Marcus so all that man o man crap is incomprehensible.  My point was that the Celtics could have had him and MARCUS.  

News to me, never knew we had him and passed up on him, Thybulle is one of those impact role players every team needs just like Smart, I like his game. Another not good/bad move by Danny, he could have really helped us

cowens/oldschool wrote:Smart could still get up for certain plays/moments, but I would have to agree his defense was not as good as other recent seasons. While we are at it, I have no idea what their rankings are, but Romeo looks like a better defender than Smart to me right now which is why I pray we can further develop him and keep him. He has more length and challenges every shot better than Smart who’s defense I also have loved. Romeo can just get/jump on the opposing shooting hand better, more length and better side to side reactions IMHO.

They are both excellent but with different styles. Smart uses his strength, tenacity, and guile. Romeo uses his footwork, speed, and wingspan.

atcross wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:Smart could still get up for certain plays/moments, but I would have to agree his defense was not as good as other recent seasons. While we are at it, I have no idea what their rankings are, but Romeo looks like a better defender than Smart to me right now which is why I pray we can further develop him and keep him. He has more length and challenges every shot better than Smart who’s defense I also have loved. Romeo can just get/jump on the opposing shooting hand better, more length and better side to side reactions IMHO.

They are both excellent but with different styles. Smart uses his strength, tenacity, and guile. Romeo uses his footwork, speed, and wingspan.  

Right pound for pound Smart may be the best post defender in the league.

It’s a shame refs went after him and stopped giving him calls on many of his signature plays.

dboss wrote:

Ktron wrote:

dboss wrote:Bobh

I am not surprised that he did not make one of the all defensive teams.  Although this is an individual award It is often reflective of how a team plays defense.

YOY The Celtics gave up 107.3 PPG last season.  That ranked them at #2.  This year they gave up 111.2 PPG which ranked them at #11.  Smarts Def Rating per NBA.Com was 111.3  and that put him at #100

However for players that played 32.9 MPG or more he was ranked at #48  Of the 10 players that made the teams all of them had better Def ratings than Marcus.
Thybulle was a rotation guy but his defense was extraordinary with a def rating of  104.7

I think your disappointment is not based on facts.  While Smart remains a solid defensive player he certainly was NOT a top 10 defender this year.  The fact that Thybulle made the squad as only a 20 MPG guy this year should piss you off that dumbass Danny traded him.  On draft day he was considered to possess elite level defensive skills.  On another thread that I am going to post details the transaction that sent him to Philly.

Dboss, with all due respect, put your calculator away and rely on you’re God given eyes. You’ve watched almost every Celtics game just like most here. If you have objectively watched Marcus than there is no way he would not be a top 10 defender.
I hate when people throw numbers around like player def.ratings and rankings. That well is so deep that most people ignore the obvious. If we are going to reduce ourselves to numbers than maybe we should just turn off the TV and wait for the box score.
I don’t believe in awards like this, MVP’s 6 man its BS. However, when I look at the list of players that were picked ahead of Marcus it just reaffirms my beliefs.  ITS ALL BULLS**t!

P.s. You take Thybulle and i’ll take Marcus. Let them play one on one and when the game is over, go getcha boy b/cuz he’s gonna need a ride to Beth Israel.

ktron

def ratings are legit.  The point that I made that you blew by just like a few too many players being checked by Marcus, is that individual defensive ratings are heavily impacted by the guys that you are playing with.  The Celtics defensive rating as a team was down YOY and so was individuals on the team including Marcus.  That does not seem like some advanced concept to wrap your head around.

I watched every Celtics game except for 3 Hawks matchups but there are other games on too with other players who also play defense and I watched Thybulle play and he is already an elite level defender.

Marcus was hurt this year and was tasked with starting at the point because all of those missed Kemba games.  His defense was impacted by this along with the fact that Boston was just not as good defensively as they were in previous years.  

As far as Thybulle is concerned I was not taking him over Marcus so all that man o man crap is incomprehensible.  My point was that the Celtics could have had him and MARCUS.  

. dboss, you stated that the individual def. Rating are impacted by the guys you are playing with. I take it to mean that If I am a great defensive player but everyone else on my teams sucks defensively, that is going to effect my defensive rating as a player? If that is correct than throw that BS out the window with the rest of the meaningless arithmetic that comes in handy when crutches are needed to limp through an analysis. If that is correct than that is why his defensive rating is down so you and the numbers say. So that means this year Smarts individual defense was so bad he wasn’t even top 15?  Ive played only on the HS level but I think I know enough about the Game to be able to WATCH A GAME and determine who is a great, good, poor defensive player or any other facet you can name. I don’t need to look at a number to tell me that, at least on an individual basis. It ain’t necessary-for me. I look at numbers and understand the purpose of analytics. Don’t necessarily agree wholeheartedly on how they’re applied  though. Some of this is common sense. There was none of this when Red was around and he did pretty well at evaluating talent.
Your point concerning Tybulle is quite perplexing. You cannot ignore the point that Bob H made. Tybulle played 20 minutes a game which may be an indication that when he was in there, maybe, just maybe, he wasn’t guarding one of the opposing teams starters. Or was he? Does the Def. Rating take that into effect? I mean it does make a difference doesn’t it. Was a lot of his minutes during blowouts or garbage time? Who was on the floor with him? Does your def. Rating take that into effect? I don’t know. All of the guys that finished ahead of Marcus were guys who played with better defenders which pushed their rating higher?  If it truly does than forgive me sir. You talk about Marcus and compare his numbers to Tybulle but yet you say here that your point was that we could have had Tybulle too if Danny hadn’t traded him away. So what. Marcus is a better player. Tybulle would have been a great luxury to have and we don’t have him but now you want both of them.
The Joker averaged 2 points per game before he was drafted. He was drafted very low but someone took a chance. Danny didn’t. Are you gonna blame Danny for that too? He along with 30 other GM’s? He traded Tybulle and it costs us? Yeah, we would’ve won 42 games and advanced tio the conf semi’s with ya boy Tybulle. We ain’t got Tybulle so why wish for him now when we have Marcus who you obviously don’t care for but want to keep even if we did have Tybulle. Maybe Im just not getting it. Your points make no sense to me whatsoever when it comes to Smart who I would compare more to Draymond than a part time T-bull who plays less than half a game but thats just silly ole me.

atcross wrote:

Ktron wrote:WTH is hero defense? My gawd…talk about over analyzing. He’s still better than more than half the stiffs on that fake All-League Sportswriters poll. Hero defense? I guess being a starter you do have more responsibility but ..no…nice try though. On top of that you’re comparing what he did this season to the small sample given to us by lil lame Lamont AKA, Romeo?

I said: "hero defense, if there is such a thing." If you object to my fabricated jargon to make my point, so be it. I gather that if you disagree with an award, they are wrong and you are right. So be it. But if you think Smart was playing the same type of defense as a starter that he did as a sixth man, I think you are in denial. Smart is the quintessential Celtics sixth man. But this last season as a starter he tried to will the Cs to wins with low percentage steal attempts, passes and shots. I don't watch the rest of the players named in awards that much and I don't give a shoot about these individual accolades. But Smart was clearly not the defender this year that he was in previous seasons. As for (lil lame?) Romeo, the first time I saw him play I was impressed with his defense, especially his superb footwork. The coaching staff seemed to agree. If you don't agree, so be it.

Smart defensive was slightly effected by his playing starter minutes but his overall defense was still top 10 in my book.
I also did not say that Romeo was not a good defender. I made the point of you comparing the few minutes he’s played to Marcus’ 6 seasons of 6 man and starter minutes. There is no comparison. Just because you were impressed doesn’t boost his status and the coaches being impressed is more than likely based on potential as well. If he can’t stay on the floor than potential means nothing. I happen to agree with the coaches on that premise I guess the difference here is that I can tell the difference between an apple and an orange. And so it is.

Ktron wrote:

dboss wrote:

Ktron wrote:

dboss wrote:Bobh

I am not surprised that he did not make one of the all defensive teams.  Although this is an individual award It is often reflective of how a team plays defense.

YOY The Celtics gave up 107.3 PPG last season.  That ranked them at #2.  This year they gave up 111.2 PPG which ranked them at #11.  Smarts Def Rating per NBA.Com was 111.3  and that put him at #100

However for players that played 32.9 MPG or more he was ranked at #48  Of the 10 players that made the teams all of them had better Def ratings than Marcus.
Thybulle was a rotation guy but his defense was extraordinary with a def rating of  104.7

I think your disappointment is not based on facts.  While Smart remains a solid defensive player he certainly was NOT a top 10 defender this year.  The fact that Thybulle made the squad as only a 20 MPG guy this year should piss you off that dumbass Danny traded him.  On draft day he was considered to possess elite level defensive skills.  On another thread that I am going to post details the transaction that sent him to Philly.

Dboss, with all due respect, put your calculator away and rely on you’re God given eyes. You’ve watched almost every Celtics game just like most here. If you have objectively watched Marcus than there is no way he would not be a top 10 defender.
I hate when people throw numbers around like player def.ratings and rankings. That well is so deep that most people ignore the obvious. If we are going to reduce ourselves to numbers than maybe we should just turn off the TV and wait for the box score.
I don’t believe in awards like this, MVP’s 6 man its BS. However, when I look at the list of players that were picked ahead of Marcus it just reaffirms my beliefs.  ITS ALL BULLS**t!

P.s. You take Thybulle and i’ll take Marcus. Let them play one on one and when the game is over, go getcha boy b/cuz he’s gonna need a ride to Beth Israel.

ktron

def ratings are legit.  The point that I made that you blew by just like a few too many players being checked by Marcus, is that individual defensive ratings are heavily impacted by the guys that you are playing with.  The Celtics defensive rating as a team was down YOY and so was individuals on the team including Marcus.  That does not seem like some advanced concept to wrap your head around.

I watched every Celtics game except for 3 Hawks matchups but there are other games on too with other players who also play defense and I watched Thybulle play and he is already an elite level defender.

Marcus was hurt this year and was tasked with starting at the point because all of those missed Kemba games.  His defense was impacted by this along with the fact that Boston was just not as good defensively as they were in previous years.  

As far as Thybulle is concerned I was not taking him over Marcus so all that man o man crap is incomprehensible.  My point was that the Celtics could have had him and MARCUS.  

. dboss, you stated that the individual def. Rating are impacted by the guys you are playing with. I take it to mean that If I am a great defensive player but everyone else on my teams sucks defensively, that is going to effect my defensive rating as a player? If that is correct than throw that BS out the window with the rest of the meaningless arithmetic that comes in handy when crutches are needed to limp through an analysis. If that is correct than that is why his defensive rating is down so you and the numbers say. So that means this year Smarts individual defense was so bad he wasn’t even top 15?  Ive played only on the HS level but I think I know enough about the Game to be able to WATCH A GAME and determine who is a great, good, poor defensive player or any other facet you can name. I don’t need to look at a number to tell me that, at least on an individual basis. It ain’t necessary-for me. I look at numbers and understand the purpose of analytics. Don’t necessarily agree wholeheartedly on how they’re applied  though. Some of this is common sense. There was none of this when Red was around and he did pretty well at evaluating talent.
Your point concerning Tybulle is quite perplexing. You cannot ignore the point that Bob H made. Tybulle played 20 minutes a game which may be an indication that when he was in there, maybe, just maybe, he wasn’t guarding one of the opposing teams starters. Or was he? Does the Def. Rating take that into effect? I mean it does make a difference doesn’t it. Was a lot of his minutes during blowouts or garbage time? Who was on the floor with him? Does your def. Rating take that into effect? I don’t know. All of the guys that finished ahead of Marcus were guys who played with better defenders which pushed their rating higher?  If it truly does than forgive me sir. You talk about Marcus and compare his numbers to Tybulle but yet you say here that your point was that we could have had Tybulle too if Danny hadn’t traded him away. So what. Marcus is a better player. Tybulle would have been a great luxury to have and we don’t have him but now you want both of them.
The Joker averaged 2 points per game before he was drafted. He was drafted very low but someone took a chance. Danny didn’t. Are you gonna blame Danny for that too? He along with 30 other GM’s? He traded Tybulle and it costs us? Yeah, we would’ve won 42 games and advanced tio the conf semi’s with ya boy Tybulle. We ain’t got Tybulle so why wish for him now when we have Marcus who you obviously don’t care for but want to keep even if we did have Tybulle. Maybe Im just not getting it. Your points make no sense to me whatsoever when it comes to Smart who I would compare more to Draymond than a part time T-bull who plays less than half a game but thats just silly ole me.

ktron I made a mistake but unfortunately it only makes Smart's defense this past season look more suspect given prior years.

def ratings are not impacted by teammates. What he did or did not do is all on him. Smarts defensive rating was in lock step with the team. That tells me that him and his teammates did not play defense at the same level as they did in previous years. His def rating impacted how many votes he got.

Marcus had a defensive rating last season of 104.6. This year it went up significantly to 111.3. What did your eyes tell you about that? When these ratings are calculated they do not have a special formula for Marcus.

Thybulle played 20 MPG so that is a legit argument against him making the team. But an argument can also be made that Bridges should have made the team. He played as much as Marcus and had a better def rating.

And yes I would not mind having Thybulle on the team because having quality defenders is not a luxury.

dboss wrote:

Ktron wrote:

dboss wrote:

Ktron wrote:

dboss wrote:Bobh

I am not surprised that he did not make one of the all defensive teams.  Although this is an individual award It is often reflective of how a team plays defense.

YOY The Celtics gave up 107.3 PPG last season.  That ranked them at #2.  This year they gave up 111.2 PPG which ranked them at #11.  Smarts Def Rating per NBA.Com was 111.3  and that put him at #100

However for players that played 32.9 MPG or more he was ranked at #48  Of the 10 players that made the teams all of them had better Def ratings than Marcus.
Thybulle was a rotation guy but his defense was extraordinary with a def rating of  104.7

I think your disappointment is not based on facts.  While Smart remains a solid defensive player he certainly was NOT a top 10 defender this year.  The fact that Thybulle made the squad as only a 20 MPG guy this year should piss you off that dumbass Danny traded him.  On draft day he was considered to possess elite level defensive skills.  On another thread that I am going to post details the transaction that sent him to Philly.

Dboss, with all due respect, put your calculator away and rely on you’re God given eyes. You’ve watched almost every Celtics game just like most here. If you have objectively watched Marcus than there is no way he would not be a top 10 defender.
I hate when people throw numbers around like player def.ratings and rankings. That well is so deep that most people ignore the obvious. If we are going to reduce ourselves to numbers than maybe we should just turn off the TV and wait for the box score.
I don’t believe in awards like this, MVP’s 6 man its BS. However, when I look at the list of players that were picked ahead of Marcus it just reaffirms my beliefs.  ITS ALL BULLS**t!

P.s. You take Thybulle and i’ll take Marcus. Let them play one on one and when the game is over, go getcha boy b/cuz he’s gonna need a ride to Beth Israel.

ktron

def ratings are legit.  The point that I made that you blew by just like a few too many players being checked by Marcus, is that individual defensive ratings are heavily impacted by the guys that you are playing with.  The Celtics defensive rating as a team was down YOY and so was individuals on the team including Marcus.  That does not seem like some advanced concept to wrap your head around.

I watched every Celtics game except for 3 Hawks matchups but there are other games on too with other players who also play defense and I watched Thybulle play and he is already an elite level defender.

Marcus was hurt this year and was tasked with starting at the point because all of those missed Kemba games.  His defense was impacted by this along with the fact that Boston was just not as good defensively as they were in previous years.  

As far as Thybulle is concerned I was not taking him over Marcus so all that man o man crap is incomprehensible.  My point was that the Celtics could have had him and MARCUS.  

. dboss, you stated that the individual def. Rating are impacted by the guys you are playing with. I take it to mean that If I am a great defensive player but everyone else on my teams sucks defensively, that is going to effect my defensive rating as a player? If that is correct than throw that BS out the window with the rest of the meaningless arithmetic that comes in handy when crutches are needed to limp through an analysis. If that is correct than that is why his defensive rating is down so you and the numbers say. So that means this year Smarts individual defense was so bad he wasn’t even top 15?  Ive played only on the HS level but I think I know enough about the Game to be able to WATCH A GAME and determine who is a great, good, poor defensive player or any other facet you can name. I don’t need to look at a number to tell me that, at least on an individual basis. It ain’t necessary-for me. I look at numbers and understand the purpose of analytics. Don’t necessarily agree wholeheartedly on how they’re applied  though. Some of this is common sense. There was none of this when Red was around and he did pretty well at evaluating talent.
Your point concerning Tybulle is quite perplexing. You cannot ignore the point that Bob H made. Tybulle played 20 minutes a game which may be an indication that when he was in there, maybe, just maybe, he wasn’t guarding one of the opposing teams starters. Or was he? Does the Def. Rating take that into effect? I mean it does make a difference doesn’t it. Was a lot of his minutes during blowouts or garbage time? Who was on the floor with him? Does your def. Rating take that into effect? I don’t know. All of the guys that finished ahead of Marcus were guys who played with better defenders which pushed their rating higher?  If it truly does than forgive me sir. You talk about Marcus and compare his numbers to Tybulle but yet you say here that your point was that we could have had Tybulle too if Danny hadn’t traded him away. So what. Marcus is a better player. Tybulle would have been a great luxury to have and we don’t have him but now you want both of them.
The Joker averaged 2 points per game before he was drafted. He was drafted very low but someone took a chance. Danny didn’t. Are you gonna blame Danny for that too? He along with 30 other GM’s? He traded Tybulle and it costs us? Yeah, we would’ve won 42 games and advanced tio the conf semi’s with ya boy Tybulle. We ain’t got Tybulle so why wish for him now when we have Marcus who you obviously don’t care for but want to keep even if we did have Tybulle. Maybe Im just not getting it. Your points make no sense to me whatsoever when it comes to Smart who I would compare more to Draymond than a part time T-bull who plays less than half a game but thats just silly ole me.

ktron I made a mistake but unfortunately it only makes Smart's defense this past season look more suspect given prior years.

def ratings are not impacted by teammates.  What he did or did not do is all on him.   Smarts defensive rating was in lock step with the team. That tells me that him and his teammates did not play defense at the same level as they did in previous years.   His  def rating impacted how many votes he got.

Marcus had a defensive rating last season of 104.6.  This year it went up significantly to 111.3.  What did your eyes tell you about that?   When these ratings are calculated they do not have a special formula for Marcus.

Thybulle played 20 MPG so that is a legit argument against him making the team.  But an argument can also be made that Bridges should have made the team.  He played as much as Marcus and had a better def rating.

And yes I would not mind having Thybulle on the team because having quality defenders is not a luxury.









 

. Dboss,
My eyes tell me what I see. My eyes tell me that Marcus is a top 10 defender because my eyes watched him play. Ive already stated that I don’t care about the arithmetic that you insist on using to justify your theory. Obviously you’re confident in your belief but you’ll never convince me.
You found another player to justify your feelings about Marcus’ play and once again used numbers. Be honest. How many times have you watched Bridges play this year? I’m sure you’ll find other players with better defensive ratings than Marcus. I’m sure that one can find numbers to justify anything if one looks for it.

You are blind in one eye and can't see out of the other, lol

I did not watch the Sun's that much.  Bridges got more 
points than Marcus but not enough points to make one of the teams.  Everyone who made the team had a better def rating than Marcus.  

Do you believe that the 100 voters used their sight to make their selections.  I think not.  

I will always rely on the actual numbers.  How else can you really evaluate these type of awards.  They have to be based on something factual other than a subjective fan with questionable eyesight.   ...that's you.

I realized the Celtics lost their last game because when the final buzzer sounded they had less points than the Nets.  What else was I to think.  I did the math.

dboss wrote:You are blind in one eye and can't see out of the other, lol

I did not watch the Sun's that much.  Bridges got more 
points than Marcus but not enough points to make one of the teams.  Everyone who made the team had a better def rating than Marcus.  

Do you believe that the 100 voters used their sight to make their selections.  I think not.  

I will always rely on the actual numbers.  How else can you really evaluate these type of awards.  They have to be based on something factual other than a subjective fan with questionable eyesight.   ...that's you.

I realized the Celtics lost their last game because when the final buzzer sounded they had less points than the Nets.  What else was I to think.  I did the math.

You’re hyping a player you hadn’t even taken the time to watch. Thats rich. LOL. You keep repeating yourself over these numbers. I’m still not impressed. Do you know who did the voting? Not a coach, player, GM, nor Scout. Scribes and broadcasters are hardly experts and if they were going by numbers than Westbrook would have been on one of the All League teams so save it. It’s a GD popularity contest like all the other award shows on TV. It.Is. Bullllllllsheeeettttttt. LOL
I will give your flowers on that last 3 sentences though. That’s where the numbers really count. (The other stuff…well u know how I feel p.s. You didn’t have to do the math just read and recite the final score.

Ktron wrote:

dboss wrote:You are blind in one eye and can't see out of the other, lol

I did not watch the Sun's that much.  Bridges got more 
points than Marcus but not enough points to make one of the teams.  Everyone who made the team had a better def rating than Marcus.  

Do you believe that the 100 voters used their sight to make their selections.  I think not.  

I will always rely on the actual numbers.  How else can you really evaluate these type of awards.  They have to be based on something factual other than a subjective fan with questionable eyesight.   ...that's you.

I realized the Celtics lost their last game because when the final buzzer sounded they had less points than the Nets.  What else was I to think.  I did the math.

You’re hyping a player you hadn’t even taken the time to watch. Thats rich. LOL. You keep repeating yourself over these numbers. I’m still not impressed. Do you know who did the voting? Not a coach, player, GM, nor Scout. Scribes and broadcasters are hardly experts and if they were going by numbers than Westbrook would have been on one of the All League teams so save it. It’s a GD popularity contest like all the other award shows on TV. It.Is. Bullllllllsheeeettttttt. LOL
I will give your flowers on that last 3 sentences though. That’s where the numbers really count. (The other stuff…well u know how I feel p.s. You didn’t have to do the math just read and recite the final score.

ktron

For your information the results are not based on being a top 10 defensive player.

Each voter gets to select 2 Guards, 2 forwards and a center for each team.  It's positional voting.  Marcus was 5th in voting among guards.  (A distant 5th - not even close)  However, he was #12 in total points so that means he is still a top notch defender.  

I keep repeating the numbers because they represent a consistent across the board non-subjective way to compare the defensive impact of players.  If the voters used what the eye test tells them they would be making votes based on their individual perceptions.  

I do not know who the voters are but I believe they are made up from a group of sports writers and broadcasters.  Maybe they are some secret cabal lurking in the shadows

If votes were based on a popularity contest that would explain why Marcus was not selected.  But it is not a popularity contest.  

I am not hyping any player I was just pointing out to you that Bridges had a better rating than Marcus but they were not competing against each other for a spot.

As far as Russell Westbrook is concerned he had a horrible defensive rating of 122.7. There was no snub there.

Again, the thing that stands out is the YOY numbers for Marcus.  I do not know why his numbers were not as good as they were last year when he made the cut.  He missed 24 games this year.  He has been throwing his body around for years like a kamikaze.  There is a lot of wear and tear on his body and that will take its' toll.  This year has been characterized by too much negative interactions with the refs.  Maybe less calls went against him.  Who knows?

The voters are who I mentioned in my last post. Broadcasters and scribes.
Yes they vote by position but if you think they’re going by and looking at Def. Rating numbers and all the other arithmetic you’re throwing at me than you’re being pretty naive. And if that was the sole criteria used as you are doing here than there would be need to take a vote. All you would have to do is look up the numbers, extrapolate them and list the 3 all nba teams.
Obviously thats not what’s happening so its safe to say that they are employing their subjective opinion as well. If its not a 100% popularity contest it’s damn close to it. IMHO
By the way, did you watch Philly and ATL last night? If you did than you had to see your first team highly defensive rated Ben Simmons get torched by Trae Young. Your 2nd teamer Tybulle blew at least 2 defensive assignments, committed a stupid foul on a 3 pt attempt and had a steal handed to him but fell on his ass and lost the ball
What was their rating last night? Doesn’t make a difference. If you watched like everyone else, they did not look great defensively so please try and factor the eye test in every now and then. It does help.
I brought up Westbrook not because of defense but based on his numbers (averaging triple doubles etc) he should have been on one of the all NBA teams not Defensive team. The difference here is that I don’t think he should have made it but if your going to use numbers then, (despite how trite as I might think it may be) doesn’t averaging a triple double count for something?
Again, I’m not saying ignore all the numbers. I’m saying that you factor in the numbers along with all the other intangibles which includes watching and that I feel is how you come up with a fair assessment.
As I stated earlier, I don’t care about all- anything cuz its BS but for the sake of the latest jokey joke of a vote on players performances, as you said, the voters voted by position. What factors did they use to decide player A over player B? Do you know?