Re: Next up: point guards?

by **bobheckler** Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:49 pm

dboss wrote:The Celtics are in the midst of a transition but not a rebuild.

They are transitioning away from a team where a PG is needed to be a primary scorer.

If that is true, I do not think we will be in the market for a high priced scoring PG. That gives the Celtics a lot of inexpensive options to add some quality depth at the point.

The Celtics will be looking for a guy who will get Jayson and Jaylen the ball and can keep the defense honest. They will also need a guy who can be effective running PNR with our 2 ultra athletic centers and our pick and Pop bigman in AH.

This transition away from PG scorers like IT, KI and KW means that Boston will likely be in a better position to retain Evan Fournier since they will not need to dole out a lot of money for a PG. The money however for Evan needs to make sense. A 2 year deal in the $24 million range may be doable because the Celtics will not have to overpay him or lock him into a long term deal.

Before anyone out there thinks that salary range is too low keep in mind that a team would have to have the CAP space to offer more than the full MLE. From what I can see, not a lot of teams have the CAP space to sign Evan as a FA above the MLE. Evan is ranked around #25 on the FA list. He is ranked #5 among SG.

Evan is an UFA. I think Boston will give him an offer and then let him and his agent go out and try to find a better deal if they do not like the offer. If he finds a better deal I wish him well. Then Boston will turn to AN and say hey kid you are going to be playing a lot more. AN is a better defender and rebounder than Evan and significantly faster and he shot 37% from deep in a season where he was just scratching the surface of his offensive potential.

I don't know when this offseason the Celtics lose Evan's Bird Rights. If they sign him with Bird Rights they can go over, and/or then do a sign-and-trade.

Excerpt from an article in March when we acquired him.

The Celtics will maintain Bird Rights on him this offseason: Fournier is under team control for just one half-season before the guard becomes an unrestricted free agent. Boston will be an over the cap team this summer but they will be able to offer Fournier any contract they want due to having Bird Rights on the sharpshooting guard after this deal. That will be valuable in the event the team decides they want to re-sign Fournier, something that will only happen if Boston frees up more money in their budget by moving other members of their core (Marcus Smart or Kemba Walker in all likelihood). Otherwise, the Celtics could potentially sign-and-trade Fournier this offseason as well, securing an asset or a trade exception from another team who wants to land him.

Bob

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by **bobheckler** Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:22 pm

RosalieTCeltics wrote:What about the guy stashed over seas? All I read was that he wanted out of his contract, is he any good. He had good numbers overseas, I just wonder, why get a guy and stash him if you are not going to try to work him out here

Rosalie,

Bob

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by **cowens/oldschool** Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:37 pm

Wow!! I would hope this kid could come to camp and let’s see further what he can do, he looks very crafty, some nice end to end and good vision. He actually reminds me a little of Tony Parker....

by **RosalieTCeltics** Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:00 pm

there have been stories about this kid during the season, wanting out of his contract, will they let him out??? He seems pretty good to me, but it is not the NBA. Wouldn't it be nice to pull off a move like this and hit gold? I know he is Celtics property, but for how long.

Looks like he could give Peyton Pritchard a run for his money It would be great having two potential point guards to choose from

Am I wrong in my thinking. I know he is not playing against players of NBA quality, but every now and then one of these kids comes over and blows our minds

by **bobheckler** Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:30 pm

RosalieTCeltics wrote:there have been stories about this kid during the season, wanting out of his contract, will they let him out??? He seems pretty good to me, but it is not the NBA. Wouldn't it be nice to pull off a move like this and hit gold? I know he is Celtics property, but for how long.

Looks like he could give Peyton Pritchard a run for his money It would be great having two potential point guards to choose from

Am I wrong in my thinking. I know he is not playing against players of NBA quality, but every now and then one of these kids comes over and blows our minds

Rosalie,

I think you're onto something with all your points.

1. The Israeli League isn't the NBA. The level of competition is much lower, in general. Just to give you an idea of how much lower, one of Madar's teammate is former Boston Celtic, and big-time bust, James Young. On the other hand, most of his teammates are older than any US NCAA player. Lesser talents, I'm sure, but full-grown men playing with nothng to lose.

2. His game is very similar to Pritchard's. They are about the same height (PP 6'1", Madar 6'3"), same weight. Madar's wingspan is unknown but PP's is ok for his height @ 6'4 1/2", he's certainly no knuckle-dragger. Where PP has the edge is that he's older (23 vs 20) and has a year of actual NBA experience under his belt. On the other hand, Yam Madar has been playing against veterans.

3. Yes, sometimes a player comes out of the blue and surprises us (although in our case it would be "out of the green"). It will be enlightening to see how good our international scouting director is.

Bob

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by **Shamrock1000** Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:32 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:Wow!! I would hope this kid could come to camp and let’s see further what he can do, he looks very crafty, some nice end to end and good vision. He actually reminds me a little of Tony Parker....

I hope he comes over as well. He is a pest on defense - likes to pick guys up at half court. His offense seemed to take a jump last season. There seem to be some questions whether he is "athletic" enough to be a starter in the NBA, so who knows??? Of course, I don't actually watch Israeli basketball, I just read some scouting reports and watched some highlight videos.

by **dboss** Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:56 pm

PP is a very good player and he did very well in his rookie year. What may have stunted him was the on again off again times where he did not get regular rotation minutes when Kemba was playing. We have a new coach coming in.

In a 2019 interview he was discussing offense and said that they run a motion offense where players have to read and react. He also said that the playbook is deep. You cannot have motion without movement and I would expect to see a lot more diagonal cuts to the basket.

We do not know who coach Udoka will want to start at PG. I do think we can assume that the Celtics will be looking to add PG depth to the team. I also do not believe that Marcus Smart is our answer to start at PG. There are reasons why I feel that way.

I would like to see Yam get an invite to play in the summer league. Watching highlights does not give us enough visual information. Unless he is really good I do not see him being added to the roster next year particularly since PP is still in a developmental stage.

In any event the Celtics have a lot of flexibility in using one of their TPE and other CAP exception to address the PG rotation as well as other positional needs. There are going to be more trades coming.

by **atcross** Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:37 pm

So what is the contract situation with Madar? How much longer does the Israeli team have him under contract? Are they holding him for a ransom from the Cs? Seems pretty certain once that contract is up he's headed to the NBA.

by **bobheckler** Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:45 pm

atcross wrote:So what is the contract situation with Madar? How much longer does the Israeli team have him under contract? Are they holding him for a ransom from the Cs? Seems pretty certain once that contract is up he's headed to the NBA.

Cross,

Madar claims his contract ends 2020-2021, so he's a free agent. His club is claiming his contract ends next season and, if he wants an early out, it'll cost $700K. Madar has filed a lawsuit against his club and has asked to go to arbitration/mediation. I cannot find any news as to when that case is going to be heard and adjudicated. I presume it will be done in time for Madar to be available for camp, at the latest. That way everybody knows what's what and nobody's plans are hung up. Madar is there, and that's that, or he's released from his contract and Hapoel Tel Aviv has enough time to recruit a replacement. Both parties are benefited with a speedy hearing.

Bob

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by **gyso** Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:34 pm

Rosalie,

You asked, "I know he is Celtics property, but for how long."

As far as the NBA is concerned, forever unless the Celtics say so.

IMO, if he loses his arbitration hearing, the Celtics will pay the $700K if they want him.

by **dboss** Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:48 pm

Madar filed his lawsuit back on February 2nd. I would just guess that this will go to arbitration and a negotiated settlement will be reached to determine compensation if any for his ball club. I hope this gets resolved soon because the summer league games run August 8th through the 17th. He will probably need to get a travel visa and deal with other logistics to get him over here.

The Celtics should be willing to shell out $250,000 and they should do that IF they think he is ready to come over now. I could see a G-league assignment in Maine.

I have watched several highlights and I like what I am seeing. I am however reminded that highlights never give you a balanced picture of a player unless the highlights specifically show strengths and weaknesses.

He played in 30 games and average 32 MPG and that is a respectable sample size and comparable to college over here.

by **bobheckler** Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:52 am

dboss wrote:Madar filed his lawsuit back on February 2nd. I would just guess that this will go to arbitration and a negotiated settlement will be reached to determine compensation if any for his ball club. I hope this gets resolved soon because the summer league games run August 8th through the 17th. He will probably need to get a travel visa and deal with other logistics to get him over here.

The Celtics should be willing to shell out $250,000 and they should do that IF they think he is ready to come over now. I could see a G-league assignment in Maine.

I have watched several highlights and I like what I am seeing. I am however reminded that highlights never give you a balanced picture of a player unless the highlights specifically show strengths and weaknesses.

He played in 30 games and average 32 MPG and that is a respectable sample size and comparable to college over here.

dboss,

Comparable minutes to college over here but superior talent. The Israeli League might not be the NBA but it's at least G-League, if not better, and G-League is itself the picks of the NCAA litter that didn't get drafted. That makes every G-League player NCAA "Deans List" athletes. Very good, far from average, even if not impressive enough to go straight to the NBA.

Bob

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by **atcross** Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:59 pm

What are the thoughts on Efrid Payton?

by **Vankisa** Sun Jun 27, 2021 12:01 pm

atcross wrote:What are the thoughts on Efrid Payton?

I think he is currently better than any backup point guard we have (not named Smart).

I would not want him to start for the Celtics though, no one better around Sad

?

by **atcross** Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:21 pm

Vankisa wrote:
atcross wrote:What are the thoughts on Efrid Payton?

I think he is currently better than any backup point guard we have (not named Smart).

I would not want him to start for the Celtics though, no one better around ?

That's kind of the problem. The floor generals (i.e., not a shoot first ISO or a never shoot Simmons) are rare and highly valued. They have to be some sort of scoring threat as well. Even Rondo could put up 40 in a pinch. But really good PGs like Westbrook or Doncic aren't going anywhere and we couldn't afford them if they were. A good floor general needs to have a great handle that allows him to go through the defense, not just into it. He needs to have great passing skills. He needs to read the defense and be able to get other players in positions to score. He needs to be a scoring threat himself. And he needs to determine who is in the best position to score (including himself) and make moves and passes that create those opportunities. Oh, and it would be nice if he could rebound some and play defense. No small request. But it will probably have to be a current, under-valued BU, or maybe a veteran starter who wants out of a rebuild scenario and will take less money to do it.

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