Post-game Thread: Celtics @ Nets 10/7/10

[Sam]

We were shown why the Celtics need at least three centers on the active list, as Doc had to go small a lot of the time when Semih and Shaq had five fouls.

Both units were guilty of not sufficiently spreading the floor and, during the first half, too often trying to drive or pass down low into severe traffic. Late in the second quarter, Nate and Delonte did precisely what was needed by taking and making five relatively uncontested long-range and medium-range outside shots. That loosened up the Nets' defense enough to open up opportunities for Glen Davis to lead the team in scoring. In fact, Delonte and Davis combined for 24 points in the second quarter.

The Celts' defense was vulnerable to penetration (especially by Lopez) all night long, and that is a situation they're going to have to address. Shaq was basically helpless against Lopez, and Erden wasn't much better (although some of his fouls were ticky tacky). The Celtics were lucky Lopez didn't play in crunch time.

The night definitely belonged to Shrek, Donkey, and the Loose Caboose.

I'll stop here because I wanted to start this thread and I haven't yet watched the third quarter.

Sam

[sinus007]

Sam,
I'd like to touch on the point that you mentioned in 2 threads: Shaq.
No doubt that Lopez owned him last night. Now, the question is is it his "who cares - it's preseason" attitude or something more serious. Hopefully, the former. On the other hand I don't understand it. Some other guys, e.g. PP, Nate, showed pllayoffs-type hustle. Why Shaq is slacking? What is it - paid vacation before retirement? In either case, I hope Semih is a quick study.

AK

[Outside]

Shaq's motivation for the preseason is right up there with Allen Iverson's motivation for practice. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

He's the oldest player in the league, and also the heaviest, so he's going to save it for when it counts -- the playoffs. My guess is that anti-anxiety meds will be required all around to cope with the seemingly minimal effort he'll expend when forced to play against active young centers through most of the season. He should be more successful with the second unit (playing against second-string centers), and he'll ramp up the effort in March or so.

I am shocked beyond all measure that someone of his bulk didn't disintegrate into a pile of arthritic dust by age 35. Pacing/saving himself may be maddening to watch, but it has extended his career.

Outside

[NYCelt]

Sam and all,

I only managed to catch the second and third quarters last night, so I have to go back and watch the first and fourth later.

Way, way too soon to say much based on these two games, although I'm still concerned over our frontcourt.

Although I originally didn't think Erden would even make the final roster, I'm now thinking I could be very wrong about that statement. That being said, although he's a grinder and may outwork half the roster he doesn't look like he's NBA ready to me. I think it's going to take him a while to become accustomed to the pace and tempo of the league and he often appears more than a step behind on the defensive end.

Shaq may give us some good minutes as a second unit player. He can still grab his share of rebounds, but I think he's going to be another defensive liability and haven't seen much to disprove that notion thus far. I hope that JO hits the floor soon so we can see what he's capable of at this point. I don't think JO has ever been anyone's all defense pick, but he may be at least as capable as Shaq or Erden and hopefully can still fill it up on the offensive end enough to compensate.

I know it's trendy throughout the NBA media right now to proclaim our front-court depth as a real strength, but I'm having a hard time seeing it and I think it's a real concern. Pierce is still Pierce, KG looks healthy and Davis is always ready. After that I hope Perk returns healthy by late January. Harangody may help but has a long way to go, he looks D-league bound so far. Daniels is shaky at best, no defensive threat and has a long injury history. Shaq looks average overall and Erden is rough, we need to see about JO.

We're most certainly good at guard, especially after the first ten games. I expect our guard play, not our front-court, to carry this team.

I hope for more out of our front court when we face stronger pre-season competition because I don't think what I'm seeing now beyond KG, Pierce and Davis is going to cut it with tougher outs than Philly and NJ.

Don't get me wrong; I don't think it's such a disaster that we're any worse than tops in the Atlantic. I just think we still have some parts to integrate better or upgrade in the front-court.

Regards

[Sam]

Outside,

Perhaps playing with the second unit will improve Shaq's performance. But I reserve every right to worry about the implications of his not even appearing to move on defense while reaching in for sure fouls. Because neither Shaq nor any other player operates in a vacuum.

The Celtics have a lot of work to do in order to integrate new players and quite possibly a revamped defensive system (with a new defensive coach). If Shaq keeps accumulating so many fouls, adjustments have to be made to protect him, which retards their ability to assimilate the planned defensive system. Last night, for example, guards were called upon to double Shaq's man, which left Nets open for perimeter shots. I don't expect that reflected the ongoing defensive strategy of the team.

Moreover, it's nice to have a team that's loose and confident. But I'm not sure it sets a great example to the kids for a Hall-of-Famer to play something like a dozen minutes and spend the rest of the game laughing life away on the bench. I felt that Sheed's frontrunner attitude influenced the team last year, and there are even more impressionable young kids on the team at this moment.

I don't want to borrow trouble. But guys like Shaq and Sheed have to realize that everything they do (or don't do) affects not simply themselves but also the team as a whole. Simply to feel he can turn it on when needed implies that it's all about himself.

It's true that the preseason records don't count. Duh! But the preseason should be utilized, among other things, to gain an idea of how the regular season is going to play out and to be as prepared as possible. If someone is not giving regular season effort in the preseason, because of some self-serving need, he's subverting one of the training camp objectives.

I may be making far too much of this. I hope so. But, from now on, my observations of Shaq's contributions are going to be heavily weighted toward the defensive end of the floor. I appreciate the unique offensive dimension he provides, but not at the expense of team defense.

Sinus,

I think Semih is a cross between a quick study and more experience than we give him credit for. He also got burned by Lopez. But not because of lack of effort on Semih's part. He's gaining knowledge with each game. His point total last night may be more representative of what we can expect over time; but I thought he played a more vital overall role last night.

One factor that we shouldn't overlook in evaluating the performances of our bigs is how tight the officials are calling things. I'm not claiming they're penalizing the Celtics more than other teams because I never, never, never get embroiled in such ridiculous conjecture. But the potential and the beauty of the game in general are being compromised by the excessive intrusiveness of the refs.

147 free throws in two games makes things boring for people who are real basketball aficionados. Imagine how boring it seems to people who are just beginning to appreciate the game. It almost seems that, with every whistle, the ref is raising his arm in triumph.

I never liked the new technical foul guidelines from the start; but they're not the only problem. I've taped both games so far and have watched both games at least twice, with a lot of stop-action and replays thrown in. I could review these games again (if I could stand it) and point out a minimum of two dozen instances in which alleged infractions had no bearing on the outcome of the action, and yet the gamecocks in stripes were intent on strutting their stuff.

Sam

[babyskyhook]

I think Semih is a cross between a quick study and more experience than we give him credit for.

Sam- I haven't seen him in an NBA setting, but I saw 3 or 4 of his games in the WCs this summer, and I thought he looked like a very solid rotation player in the NBA who is young and athletic enough to have upside beyond that. He was playing against high level competition and more than held his own in Turkey.


The Cs, with Erden in '08, and the Lakers (with Ebanks and Caracter this year) have done a great job getting real talent at the the end of the second round.


I have always been a fan of drafting younger foreign players with those very late picks, as they have the potential to blossom and really turn into something, and haven't been scouted as heavily as the US guys for the most part.

[Sam]

BSH,

I agree with you. I think he played, at most, two summer league games in addition to the initial one that doesn't count because he literally ran from the Turkey plane to get in uniform. Despite what some people say (perhaps they saw only that first game in which he was lost), I thought he looked quite good in the summer league—and, in fact, the announcers were raving about him at times.

One of the risks the Celtics took last year, in their zeal to fill the roster with veterans, was to stock any developing players with potential. I think they've now done that (while adding yet more vets) with Semih, Bradley (if his ankle ever recovers), and Harangody (I hope). At this very early point in the preseason, I'd also like them to keep Lasme instead of Wafer because, in addition to great athleticism, Lasme seems to have a great "feel" for the game.

I haven't been keeping track of Ebanks and Caracter. Are there early indications about them in preseason activities?

Sam

[babyskyhook]

BSH,

I agree with you. I think he played, at most, two summer league games in addition to the initial one that doesn't count because he literally ran from the Turkey plane to get in uniform. Despite what some people say (perhaps they saw only that first game in which he was lost), I thought he looked quite good in the summer league—and, in fact, the announcers were raving about him at times.

One of the risks the Celtics took last year, in their zeal to fill the roster with veterans, was to stock any developing players with potential. I think they've now done that (while adding yet more vets) with Semih, Bradley (if his ankle ever recovers), and Harangody (I hope). At this very early point in the preseason, I'd also like them to keep Lasme instead of Wafer because, in addition to great athleticism, Lasme seems to have a great "feel" for the game.

I haven't been keeping track of Ebanks and Caracter. Are there early indications about them in preseason activities?

Sam

Wow- straight off a flight from Turkey and onto the court ? THat's impressive, although his body must have been seriously out of whack from the time change, dehydration and sitting on a plane for that long. And having never worked in the Cs' system? No wonder he looked lost.

As you know, I think Bradley was a real steal for the Cs in this year's draft (I was hoping the Lakers would trade up to get him somehow). with Rondo and Perk as the cornerstones, looks like the Cs are building a nice young group to take over when the Big 3 retire.

Add in some FAs when the high salaried guys retire and some more draft picks over the next couple years and the Cs might be able to rebuild on the fly, as they've got the two toughest positions to find talent in basketball covered with Rondo and Perk.

[Sam]

BSH,

That's what they said on the summer league broacast—right off the plane and no grounding in the system.

You may be a bit more optimistic than I am in terms of Perk representing a major building block for the future. I certainly don't want to kick a guy when he's down, but I'm getting the feeling that his ability to improve may have plateaued.

If so, we have a guy who can play a key complementary defensive role among a "womb" consisting of really good players around him. But I'd imagine that, when called upon to acquire new difference-makers, the Celtics would have to include provisions for making up for Perk's shortcomings. Moreover, if Perk and Rondo were to be the cornerstones of a rebuilding franchise, they'd represent contrasting offensive styles.

Perhaps things will turn out differently, and I have a lot of confidence in Danny (if he's still here at that point) to find ways to make the roster work. But I don't believe that Perk will be a slam dunk as a major building block. We'll see.

Sam

[cowens/oldschool]

Lopez was just as defensless vs Shaqs offense as Shaq was on his D.I didn't see him getting exposed in the pick and roll,I really didn't think Shaqs defense was all that bad,the kid Lopez hit some shots......Kevin McHale really messed up passing on Lopez.Its still WAY early.

[Outside]

Sam,

LOL, I didn't mean to say you weren't allowed to worry about Shaq's performance, just that it shouldn't be a surprise. Although several board members convinced me that he could be a good signing, I initially thought he was a poor fit because of all the reasons you so diligently noted. He is who he is, and finding a way to maximize his advantages while minimizing his weaknesses is the goal, and I firmly believe he can do that best on the second unit with quicker players surrounding him.

Lopez is a bad matchup for him, but most teams don't have a center like that. Even some better centers get frustrated by Shaq's bulk and strength. I didn't see the Nets game, but my guess is that Lopez has figured out how to use quickness and movement to neutralize Shaq's strength advantage.

In the chess game that Danny and Doc are playing, Shaq's value isn't what he can do during the regular season, although they certainly plan on him being a valuable asset for that. His value is about matchups with the other powers in the Eastern Conference -- Miami, Orlando, and Chicago -- and with the Lakers.

Noah in Chicago is really active, but he's not an offensive powerhouse (he gets most of his opportunities on put-backs), and he has a really tough time dealing with Shaq's bulk and strength.

Orlando can be more of a problem for Shaq, but not so much because of Dwight Howard. Howard has such a limited offensive game that Shaq can disrupt him by pushing him off the block. The guy I'd be more concerned about is Gortat. He's potentially another tough matchup for Shaq because he's long and active like Lopez. But it's manageable because the key for playing Orlando defensively isn't Howard and Gortat; it's limiting the outside portion of their inside-outside game. That's what the C's did so successfully in last year's playoffs.

Who on earth does Miami have at center? I just looked at their roster, and they have Zydrunis Ilgauskus (a 7-4 small forward who's even slower than Shaq), retreads Juwan Howard and Jamaal McGloire, plus Joel Anthony (rode the bench the last three years for Miami) and rookie Mickell Gladness.

Lopez, Gortat, and Bogut with Milwaukee are probably Shaq's toughest matchups. Lopez probably has the most complete offensive game of any big man in the Eastern Conference, and I don't think you need to worry about playing the Nets in the conference finals. That's not to say that Shaq will have 20-10 games against everyone else, because he won't, but most teams can't exploit his liabilities to the degree that Lopez apparently did.

On a side note, I noticed one thing Doc said recently about Shaq -- that they can live with his poor free-throw shooting because if he draws fouls and puts the Celtics in the bonus, that means everyone on the team is shooting more free throws, including Ray, Pierce, KG, and other good shooters, plus he gets the other team's big guys in foul trouble. Shaq's free-throw shooting is inexcusable in my view and will drive half the people here nuts before the year is over, but it's good that Doc can see past that to the bigger picture. If I had to watch Shaq shoot free throws night after night, I'd lose it completely.

Outside

[Sam]

Outside,

My concern was not that Shaq had a bad matchup on defense and might have a few more around the league. Everyone's going to have an occasional game in which he winds up the matador. The difference in this case is that even a bad matador moves when attacked.

Maybe that's the way it's going to be, or maybe he's just coasting at this time of year. Either way, what bothered me more was his demeanor. I'm not sure that being the victim of a bad matchup and nearly fouling out in a dozen minutes is really the occasion to be laughing it up on the bench—and I mean CONSTANTLY—for the rest of the game. Maybe that's the way it's done elsewhere, but I'm not used to where the Celtics are concerned.

I'll stand by my concern that there are young, impressionable guys on the team who are (to say the least) a little off-center in their behavior to begin with. Perhaps Shaq's demeanor, on top of his defensive ineffectiveness, represented a very positive signal to those guys. Alternatively, perhaps KG can be counted on to instill in these guys the seriousness of this enterprise in which they're engaged. Oh wait, Shaq even had KG splitting his sides with laughter on the bench.

It's one thing when guys are in a celebratory mood, as when they're ahead by 24 with two minutes left. This particular game didn't seem like a laugher, and the irony is that Shaq's futility was a major reason for that fact. As fans, we may say, "Heck, it's only the preseason...who cares?" But players should not have that luxury, as they're in the process of developing a culture as well as a playing system; and ideally, that culture will be heavily laced with intense determination.

Fortunately, there are several young guys who are on the bubble and who are probably going to put out like crazy for the rest of the preseason, no matter what. Or maybe this was just a one-game anomaly. But one thing I know is that, given the high quality of numerous opponents, this team will need to pay attention to business throughout the season and not just try to kick it into gear when the playoffs start. Any influence to the contrary is something I'm going to watch for very carefully because this season has the potential to be a very good one and I'd hate to see it subverted unnecessarily.

Actually, there could be one very effective antidote if this IS a harbinger of some sort of trend. Let's see what happens the first time the Celtics get their heads handed to them. If that never occurs, then we Celtics fans have nothing to worry about.

Sam

[worcester]

Loose Caboose is a very perceptive, clever, and apropos nickname for Delonte, but I sure hope it doesn't stick - or else that Delonte develops enough emotional health as reflected by a good sense of humor not to let it bother him.

[Sam]

W,

Actually, I like Delonte and always have. Furthermore, I believe he could be one of the biggest keys to the Celtics' chances this season.

I've already stated that I believe it will be our small men, rather than our big men, who will decide how far the Celts will go. In general, I believe the big men will neutralize their opponents while (in general) the difference will be carved out by the other three positions.

And, among the other three positions, it could well be Delonte who proves to be the difference-maker...the starter in bench clothing...the guy who can jump start the team (as he did last night)...who can simultaneously space the floor and feed the guy who benefits from the spacing...the very pesky and persistent defender, even against players larger than he...the player who will never back away from taking a clutch shot and who always has a great "feel" for the game and where he should be at all times...the yin to Nate's yang as Delonte provides a stabilizing influence on Donkey...but, most of all, the ultimate team player.

Here's wishing Delonte a healthy and productive season.

Sam

[worcester]

Sam, I agree about Delonte. I think he'll have a great season and rebound emotionally as well as on the court. He's going to feel a lot of love from the Boston fans who appreciate the passion he brings to his game- and he won't miss LeBron's mamma at all.

[Sam]

W,

When Heinsohn said recently that he felt Delonte might be a better defender against SFs than SGs, my first thought was about what might happen if Delonte wound up covering Lebron for more than a few seconds. Lebron might suddenly morph into a Flying Wallenda. Put Shaq in the mix to "dissuade" Lebron from excessive aerobatics, and LBJ might start wishing he had a net out there.

Sam

[dboss]

Celtics are going to have a GREAT team this year.

Loaded with talent.

Frontcourt will dominate

Bench will win games for this team

Preseason will help them set up their rotations.

dboss

[worcester]

LBJ still makes me think of Lyndon Baines Johnson, my least favorite President since I've studied up on the JFK assassination. LBJ is also becoming my least favorite basketball player. If there's one arena where I thought America had overcome race, I thought it was the basketball court.

[jeb]

wor

On the streets of America it has. IF YOU CAN BALL you get respect and a free pass. Johnson did some good things domestic but was a five alarm freak show in the world and he was in the pocket of bell helicopter and their ilk.

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