Celts Squander 19 point lead and Lose to Bulls 128-114

Each loss has its' own footprint..

This one was all about taking the ole foot off the gas before arriving at said destination. This happens to the best of teams and to the worse ones. This was the first game this year where Boston had a big lead. Unfortunately, they did not know how to handle success.

Momentum changes like the wind. When it is at your back there is no resistance but when it shifts to your face, an uphill climb ensues.

After the game, I was very disappointed but today I feel just fine. This loss really does not bother me because we saw solid defense and good movement on offense. We played very well up until we did not play well at all.

I am marking this one down in the loss column - reason: schizophrenia.

Noteworthy observations

The Celtics only had 2 rebounds in the 4th quarter

Jaylen Brown only got 2 shots off in the 4th QTR. The first a missed layup with 3:17 remaining

In the post game interview session Marcus complained that he is stuck in the corner. He said that Jayson and Jaylen need to pass the ball.

I was going to watch the replay last night but a friend's email spilled the beans and having seen the score I decided not to spend the time getting disappointed. Having not watched it but having looked at the box score I have one question: How does starting point guard Smart get zero assists? I see he scored and got some steals. (Only one rebound.) So I gather he was engaged and maybe playing Smart defense. But zero assists?! And did I hear that Marcus was saying the two Js didn't pass?! Am I off base on this? Like I said I didn't watch the game.

atcross wrote:I was going to watch the replay last night but a friend's email spilled the beans and having seen the score I decided not to spend the time getting disappointed. Having not watched it but having looked at the box score I have one question: How does starting point guard Smart get zero assists? I see he scored and got some steals. (Only one rebound.) So I gather he was engaged and maybe playing Smart defense. But zero assists?! And did I hear that Marcus was saying the two Js didn't pass?! Am I off base on this? Like I said I didn't watch the game.

atcross

Marcus has been in some type of funk. He took 11 shots last night while going 5-11 but he had no assists. It is hard to make argument that you are stuck in the corner and not one is passing you the ball. How did you get 11 looks if no one is passing you the ball? He wanted the ball in his hands more this season but at the same time the Celtics added Schroder and they want the Jays to become better playmakers. Not enough? Al and Rob can have the offense run through them. This is what happens when roles over-lap.

This team is figuring out roles on the fly, right now they are not established even though we got off to a good start in this game. Don’t understand how Jaylen got only 2 shots in 4th when we couldn’t buy a bucket. It’s obviously on the players and the coach, I think that statement is not debatable. Until everyone figures out how they can best help the team, players and coaches, we may be in a funk until then. We showed we can play well/efficient, we still have 2 all star level pieces; but the 2 young all star pieces and other supporting players may not be enough this year….if they can’t figure out how to get the sum to be better than the parts. Old cliche, but that’s one of the main problems so far early.

cowens/oldschool wrote:This team is figuring out roles on the fly, right now they are not established even though we got off to a good start in this game. Don’t understand how Jaylen got only 2 shots in 4th when we couldn’t buy a bucket. It’s obviously on the players and the coach, I think that statement is not debatable. Until everyone figures out how they can best help the team, players and coaches, we may be in a funk until then. We showed we can play well/efficient, we still have 2 all star level pieces; but the 2 young all star pieces and other supporting players may not be enough this year….if they can’t figure out how to get the sum to be better than the parts. Old cliche, but that’s one of the main problems so far early.

There have been several games where Jaylen does not get any plays run for him during long stretches of the game.   The problem begins and ends with the issue at point.  We desperately need a guy to pass out the cookies.  The last 2 games JB got frozen out even though he was clearly the best player on the court.  That happens because Jayson is trying to take over games and the ball is in his hands and we do not have a reliable PG who decides which option is best.  

Now Marcus is complaining like he is some savant at point.  I cannot ignore the fact that Marcus is 3rd on this team in 3 point attempts and is only shooting 28.2%.  It is not like poor 3 point shooting is an anomaly for him. His assist average is at 4.

I do not want to start pointing fingers ....this is frustrating enough as it is. We do not know the dynamics of what is going on in the locker room, on the bench, even the why's of the rotation
set up by Ime. I can tell you, it was really disappointing to watch that game develop the way it did. They let Chicago make fools out of them. Smart is right, the ball needs to be shared more. I watched Jason Tatum get a rebound and decide he was going to bring the ball up the court. Why?
He is not a ball handler, he stripped more times than I care to talk about. Get the ball to the guys who will help set up plays. Jaylen can be the same way at times, if he ever gets his hands on the ball in the final minutes. Bad traits, bad team ball.
You could feel that game slipping away in the 3rd quarter. This team cannot sit on a lead, they need to keep scoring, pound the opposition, they can do it, but they just sit back and take it easy. This cannot continue to happen, they have to get it into their heads that this game is 48 minutes....period.

time to put up or we will see a major trade by February.........I hate the think that is what will happen

I think I noticed something very subtle that may have single-handedly led to our demise in this game.

When everything was going on all 8 cylinders through the first 3 quarters, I noticed that after we got a defensive rebound or a steal in their half-court or even a made basket, the ball was over our line with the shot clock showing 21-22 seconds left. Then I started noticing MS bringing the ball up in succession, more like walking it up the court, and then we went from 1 TO in the third to 5 over the next few possessions, etc. His crossover center court time left on the shot clock was 17-18 seconds.

That meshes with the whole taking the foot off the gas pedal analogy. Not going to blame it all on MS but he may have facilitated it. Not good for someone who wants to be the main PG. We're getting to the point much quicker than we may realize in that we're going down a slippery slope and may not be able to recover these losses in the standings. Plus of obvious time clock ticking on the 2 J's. How much longer do we need to figure everything out when there are other teams tearing it up with much less drag. How long do those two want to play in an environment where it's Rosanna Rosanna Danna.

My father always said, "It's always something. If it's not one thing, it's another." The average NBA shelf life is 4.5 years I believe. We're starting to pushup against that here already.

This team looked really good against a really good team that was shooting 300% from 3-ville for a while and we were still in it....for 3 quarters.

db

Dboss,
Please allow to disagree with you. This game showed the same malady, IMO, as the other games this season.
I can't diagnose it or put my finger on it to figure out why.
One of the reasons is the coach. I couldn't understand why JB, who by the mid-3rd quarter had 25 points and was practically unstoppable, was suddenly forgotten by coach and players.
Also, why Udoka kept JR, who was mostly useless, in while keeping Schroeder on the bench during the time when the game was being lost.
I hope it's just rookie mistakes that will go away.
The Smart's complaint about JB and JT not passing is crap - there're no other shooters, besides Al.

AK

Sinus007

The coach has not figured things out yet.  Rotation decisions matter.  

I agree that there were common elements in this game just like other games this year.  But I think this was our first 19 point lead this year.

We do not have a 3rd guard/wing scorer.  Udoka is not giving the young guys much of a chance to play.  

Al seemed less enthusiastic about the switch everything defense.  He said he could do it if it is good for the team.  

It now seems clear that there will be no team captain (s) this year.  

Still, there is a long way to go for the team to improve including the coach.

Someone, maybe Rondo, once said that to get assists you need the guy you pass to to score. He added that the odds of that increase depending on who you pass to, when and where. Good PGs see a play developing and know when that opportunity is there. I have my doubts whether that can be learned. I think to a large extent it requires a natural aptitude. Magic, Stockton, Kidd, & Rondo all had that. I don't think Smart has it and probably never will. He is a terrific defensive 2 who can win a game for you with sheer will. But he is not a PG. Start PP at PG and Marcus at the 2. Then bring in Schroeder and Richardson off the bench.

atcross wrote:Someone, maybe Rondo, once said that to get assists you need the guy you pass to to score. He added that the odds of that increase depending on who you pass to, when and where. Good PGs see a play developing and know when that opportunity is there. I have my doubts whether that can be learned. I think to a large extent it requires a natural aptitude. Magic, Stockton, Kidd, & Rondo all had that. I don't think Smart has it and probably never will. He is a terrific defensive 2 who can win a game for you with sheer will. But he is not a PG. Start PP at PG and Marcus at the 2. Then bring in Schroeder and Richardson off the bench.

I agree that Smart is probably playing out of position-Not a PG. I’m not sure what you mean by natural aptitude.
I don’t think Schroder is very good either. The PG we need unfortunately is not one of the 15 wearing green.

Ktron wrote:

atcross wrote:Someone, maybe Rondo, once said that to get assists you need the guy you pass to to score. He added that the odds of that increase depending on who you pass to, when and where. Good PGs see a play developing and know when that opportunity is there. I have my doubts whether that can be learned. I think to a large extent it requires a natural aptitude. Magic, Stockton, Kidd, & Rondo all had that. I don't think Smart has it and probably never will. He is a terrific defensive 2 who can win a game for you with sheer will. But he is not a PG. Start PP at PG and Marcus at the 2. Then bring in Schroeder and Richardson off the bench.

I agree that Smart is probably playing out of position-Not a PG. I’m not sure what you mean by natural aptitude.
I don’t think Schroder is very good either. The PG we need unfortunately is not one of the 15 wearing green.

Schroder is at least A point guard. My main objection to him is he is short term and I want the Js to have some consistency at that position. True floor generals are hard to come by. But first someone has to admit it ain't Marcus. Either Ime or Marcus.

Thank God for Marcus Smart , I have been saying this to myself and at times in my post. Perhaps this will either have everyone look in the mirror at themselves and change, or we will see a blockbuster trade...............but something has to give. This ISO BS play has to stop. PASS THE BALL ! How many times have you seen Tatum take a a lousy shot with 2 or 3 guys defending him. How many times has Tatum tried an ISO play by diving to the basket and get stripped of the ball and a turnover.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

Want more, Go to WEEI website and Listen to a segment by Lou Merloni.................He is correct on Tatum, I disagree with his assessment on Brown.

https://www.audacy.com/weei/sports/celtics/listen-lou-merloni-has-had-enough-of-jayson-tatum

Tatum is a cry baby by constantly complaining about missed calls. He should grow - up and just play ball. As far as I am concerned, Tatum is a one dimensional player.....he can score.......at times! He leads the league in shots and has the worst shooting percentage, that says it all. He has yet to grow into the next level as a player.

TRADE PLEASE!

112288

112288 wrote:Thank God for Marcus Smart , I have been saying this to myself and at times in my post.  Perhaps this will either have everyone look in the mirror at themselves and change, or we will see a blockbuster trade...............but something has to give.   This ISO BS play has to stop.  PASS THE BALL !  How many times have you seen Tatum take a a lousy shot with 2 or 3 guys defending him. How many times has Tatum tried an ISO play by diving to the basket and get stripped of the ball and a turnover.  

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

Want more, Go to WEEI website and Listen to a segment by Lou Merloni.................He is correct on Tatum, I disagree with his assessment on Brown.

https://www.audacy.com/weei/sports/celtics/listen-lou-merloni-has-had-enough-of-jayson-tatum

Tatum is a cry baby by constantly complaining about missed calls.  He should grow - up and just play ball.  As far as I am concerned, Tatum is a one dimensional player.....he can score.......at times!   He leads the league in shots and has the worst shooting percentage, that says it all.   He has yet to grow into the next level as a player.

TRADE PLEASE!

112288

While I think Tatum may be a victim of reading too many of his own clippings, I do think that part of the problem is that he went into the summer hearing that he needed to get to the line more. I think he worked on that but in the meantime the NBA changed and is not calling the fouls for the offensive players the way they did before. But still, he needs to read the signs and adapt.

Good point atcross

Tatum is still learning the game.  He is not one dimensional.  He can score at all 3 levels, he can rebound and defend.  That is not reflective of being one dimensional.  His playmaking skills are still in the developmental stage.  He is still a kid for crying out loud.  He is 23 years old and has far exceeded expectations.

Are we ready to throw the baby out with the bath water because he cries too much?

He and Jaylen are not the finished products yet.

dBoss,

Sorry to disagree but he is now not a kid. He has been in the league - what 4 years as a starter. I am not saying he does not have the physical skills - he does, but he has yet to display them as a full package on the court.

Listen, why did Smart mouth off about Tatum if it was not true. Some people may disagree but Marcus Smart is a very smart ball player. He will be a coach someday for sure. And oh by the way, forgive me for the pun!

As a fan I saw this beginning a few years ago with Tatum, not so much Brown. In fact I think Brown is a better ball player then Tatum right now. He can score inside and out and he has distributed the ball well when I have watched him. He also plays good defense.

I think what we have right now is a battle between a very good player wanting to play his style verses the coaches style. Brad would have been let go if he did not fall into his position, however there is a new coach with a new BB philosophy and yet we have not seen change by Tatum. He still bitches about calls. He got caught bitching about a call and not running down court on defense in the last game that cost us 2 points.

As far as I am concerned and by 2 cents, perhaps its time that Tatum goes vis a trade for a young star center that the Celtics have been lacking for years.

Hope Tatum can resolve his issues and get back to playing ball that I saw him play as a rookie!

112288

112288

We can respectfully disagree.  

If Boston had won this game we probably would not be having this conversation at least not about the nuclear option.  Tatum has not shot the ball well this year and he has been pressing.  If you expect a 23 year old to be the finished product that is setting unreasonable expectation.  

Tatum and Brown have gotten better every year.  Now we are looking for them to become better decision makers with their shot selection.  We would like to see more playmaking from both of them.

They are both top end scorers, solid rebounders and good defenders.  We are 3/4 of the way there with both of them.

We lost this game in the 4th QTR and we saw a lot of missed opportunities and poor plays at both ends.  Tatum missed several makeable wide open jumpers, went to the rim 3 times scoring once and not getting a call on another.  Al Horford scored on a follow up dunk and a driving layup plus an and 1.  He also surrender a team high 11 points in the QTR, 6 on drives plus a 2 point jumper and a 3 pointer where he was late to rotate.  JR and Schroder missed  open 3 pointers to start the quarter .  JR missed another 2 point jumper and Schroder got blocked on a drive and they scored on a fast break. (one of several)  JR gave up 2 three point shots on defense.  Marcus gave up a 3 pointer and a layup.  Brown missed a Postup layup and a 3 pointer.  He did not touch the ball for most of the qtr.  We scored 11 points in the QTR while Brown who went 10-18 from the field and 5-8 from deep rarely got a look. Who's fault is that?  Should we blame Tatum who took quality shots?  Should we blame Marcus?  Should we blame Ime who does not see the value of pairing the jays in a 2 man game.

These are just bits and pieces of what happened so if anyone choses to point the finger at anyone player, know this, we lost this game because we did not play well as a team and that pretty much includes everyone that was on the court and the coach.

dBoss,

I think the problem is the hype on these two players by the press especially Tatum where the press is making him out to be an elite superstar.

I agree with you that they are 23 and 24 years old. However, Brown has grown each year to become a complete player or more polished. He can score, play defense and rebound
while Tatum has hit a plateau in the last several years. He has not taken that quantum leap to superstar status yet.

Bird, MJ and Magic came out of the box immediately to showcase their talent. I guess the hype was too premature and we should put it on hold for a while until they can catch - up to being called an elite player.

112288

It’s not fair to compare any players of today to MJ, Bird and Magic, the only 2 would be Lebron and Giannis that could even be in a conversation, no one else comes close.

derozan and lavine is the cheesiest backcourt ever. lets see where we are at the end of Jan.

cowens/oldschool wrote:It’s not fair to compare any players of today to MJ, Bird and Magic, the only 2 would be Lebron and Giannis that could even be in a conversation, no one else comes close.

Cowen,

What I wanted to show is how that group of elite players played as a young player entering the league for the first 4-5 years as compared to Tatum record the last 3-4 years as a so called elite player. That is a fair comparison as they are labeling him an elite player.

What I can tell you is in the not too distant future - 2 years or so, if Tatum does not advance as a player to the next level, his trade stock will fall for what the Celtics can get right now.

112288

112288 wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:It’s not fair to compare any players of today to MJ, Bird and Magic, the only 2 would be Lebron and Giannis that could even be in a conversation, no one else comes close.

Cowen,

What I wanted to show is how that group of elite players played as a young player entering the league for the first 4-5 years as compared to Tatum record the last 3-4 years as a so called elite player.  That is a fair comparison as they are labeling him an elite player.

What I can tell you is in the not too distant future - 2 years or so, if Tatum does not advance as a player to the next level, his trade stock will fall for what the Celtics can get right now.  

112288

Bird and Magic played on stacked teams, and as good as they were early with ultimate impact on their teams that you never see today, they still improved every year and were better into their late 20’s than the first few years significantly. Magic got to play with Kareem, in the conversation for GOAT and made him even better. Red acquired Parish and McHale, got DJ and if not for the tragic Len Bias saga, we could have had 5 titles or more IMHO. Jordan didn’t win it all for the first time until he was 28, which was the same age as Lebron for his first title. Both struggled to get their teams across the finish line, despite their individual impact. I hear what your saying that if Tatum regresses we won’t get the same value as right now, but as much as I’ve been ripping Tatum, I still think it would be way too early to trade him or give up on him. Even now no one is giving up all NBA Giannis level talent for Tatum, so you could never get better talent/pieces back, at least I don’t see it happening, so for the time being we have to be patient.

Many of those players from the 80's played college for four years before entering the NBA.  They started out in the pros with a more advanced skill set.

Tatum and the other top players today were one and done players.  Their skills entering the league aren't much better than high school players.

It's hard to make any kind of comparisons between players of today and players from 35-40 years ago based purely on years in the league.