This team needs to blow it up too

bobheckler wrote:Adam Himmelsbach @AdamHimmelsbach
about 10 hours ago
“We’ll look at everything based on these 25 games and see where changes need to be made, whether it’s lineup, rotation, minutes, everything.” After another lopsided loss, Ime Udoka hinted that things might be shaken up soon.


Bob
MY NOTE:  Change is a-comin'.  The question is whether Brad and Wyc will wait to give Ime's changes a chance before pulling the trigger.  In my never-humble-opinion I think that will boil down to how good the offers on the table right now are.  If a trading partner is highly motivated and is willing to make it worth Brad's while, then he'll move.  If not, and I don't think the deals will be that great because Brad's peers think he's in 'sell mode' and will underbid to try and get a steal, then he'll give Ime until the trade deadline, which is February 10, 2022.  That's 61 days from today.  If nothing happens by this coming Wednesday December 15th, or within 72 hours or so of then, then Ime will have 2 months to figure it out.  If he hasn't figured it out by then the axe will come down on some necks.


.

I’m assuming you’re not alluding to Ime getting the axe. I see this mentioned on numerous sites and I think it’s ludicrous. Who’s and what fkn criteria is being used. 25 games in and that talk has already started? Stupid stupid and more stupid. If this franchise has a hankering to lose all of the little credibility it has left they should do it. Nobody on here has suggested that and based on your knowledge of the game i don’t think you are so I’ll assume that you’re not alluding to it now.  People on here have questioned some of Ime’s decisions/moves and rightfully so. As you said, nobody is above scrutiny.

Let’s have some real fun though. Like us, most teams are 25-28 games in and lots of teams have underachieved WITH coaches that have years of NBA coaching experience. So, if people want to start talking about firings lets start with-

Nate McMillan,
Eric Spoelstra
Doc Rivers
Tom Thibideau
Frank Vogel…..

Like I said, thats just a start. Feb 22 as you mentioned might extend this list further or shorten it because some may already be given their skates by then.

Think that’s ludicrous? Not as ludicrous as the thought and mentioning Ime be fired THIS SEASON.

Our coach has done some things well and has made some mistakes along the way. He’ll probably make some more. He’s new and as far as I’m concerned is entitled to them. The others mentioned above- not so much.

Ime is working with a horribly flawed roster.

Begin the conversation with that fact.

From the list on Bob's post:

Minnesota Timberwolves

None

I found:

Jarred Vanderbilt
Trade Restriction: This player cannot be traded until Dec 15, 2021.
$4,000,000

Jordan McLaughlin
Trade Restriction: This player cannot be traded until Dec 15, 2021.
$2,000,000

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/minnesota-timberwolves/cap/

We don't want either of these players, but going through the exercise shows that one can find things by peeking into the cracks.

All this is assuming that spotrac is correct and up-to-date.

Ktron wrote:

bobheckler wrote:Adam Himmelsbach @AdamHimmelsbach
about 10 hours ago
“We’ll look at everything based on these 25 games and see where changes need to be made, whether it’s lineup, rotation, minutes, everything.” After another lopsided loss, Ime Udoka hinted that things might be shaken up soon.


Bob
MY NOTE:  Change is a-comin'.  The question is whether Brad and Wyc will wait to give Ime's changes a chance before pulling the trigger.  In my never-humble-opinion I think that will boil down to how good the offers on the table right now are.  If a trading partner is highly motivated and is willing to make it worth Brad's while, then he'll move.  If not, and I don't think the deals will be that great because Brad's peers think he's in 'sell mode' and will underbid to try and get a steal, then he'll give Ime until the trade deadline, which is February 10, 2022.  That's 61 days from today.  If nothing happens by this coming Wednesday December 15th, or within 72 hours or so of then, then Ime will have 2 months to figure it out.  If he hasn't figured it out by then the axe will come down on some necks.


.

I’m assuming you’re not alluding to Ime getting the axe. I see this mentioned on numerous sites and I think it’s ludicrous. Who’s and what fkn criteria is being used. 25 games in and that talk has already started? Stupid stupid and more stupid. If this franchise has a hankering to lose all of the little credibility it has left they should do it. Nobody on here has suggested that and based on your knowledge of the game i don’t think you are so I’ll assume that you’re not alluding to it now.  People on here have questioned some of Ime’s decisions/moves and rightfully so. As you said, nobody is above scrutiny.

Let’s have some real fun though. Like us, most teams are 25-28 games in and lots of teams have underachieved WITH coaches that have years of NBA coaching experience. So, if people want to start talking about firings lets start with-

Nate McMillan,
Eric Spoelstra
Doc Rivers
Tom Thibideau
Frank Vogel…..

Like I said, thats just a start. Feb 22 as you mentioned might extend this list further or shorten it because some may already be given their skates by then.

Think that’s ludicrous? Not as ludicrous as the thought and mentioning Ime be fired THIS SEASON.

Our coach has done some things well and has made some mistakes along the way. He’ll probably make some more. He’s new and as far as I’m concerned is entitled to them. The others mentioned above- not so much.

Ktron,

No, I was NOT alluding to Ime. Strictly players.


Bob


.

If you are going to find a trading partner, start by looking at which teams have disgruntled players or teams that are looking to blow it up and start rebuilding.

No one who is comfortable right now will give you charity and a fair trade. Look for the same teams that are in your position (They Suck Also) and who on those teams make sense for the Celtics.

I would start with the low post position and work out to the back court. ALA Red Auerbach.

112288

Much to agree with in this and related threads. Any team with its second-best player out, starting Grandpa Horford and counting on Marcus Smart to score is lucky to be in 10th place. Before we blow it up, I think we should try dboss’s lineup. Give the keys to Shröeder, bring on the youth brigade. RW needs a baby skyhook, one dribble and up with either hand and he’d be twice as effective. The guy can fly; he can pass; he can learn how to shoot from 6 feet.
If only we had a young, 7’ 1” backup center, future starter, instead of turnstile Kanter, we would address our most glaring deficiency. Oh wait; we had one, and cheap! but he was traded for a mediocre guard, and now we’re shopping again. I still think this lineup, all healthy, plus one good big could be dangerous in April. Hawk

hawksnestbeach wrote:Much to agree with in this and related threads. Any team with its second-best player out, starting Grandpa Horford and counting on Marcus Smart to score is lucky to be in 10th place. Before we blow it up, I think we should try dboss’s lineup. Give the keys to Shröeder, bring on the youth brigade. RW needs a baby skyhook, one dribble and up with either hand and he’d be twice as effective. The guy can fly; he can pass; he can learn how to shoot from 6 feet.
If only we had a young, 7’ 1” backup center, future starter, instead of turnstile Kanter, we would address our most glaring deficiency. Oh wait; we had one, and cheap! but he was traded for a mediocre guard, and now we’re shopping again. I still think this lineup, all healthy, plus one good big could be dangerous in April. Hawk

Exactly wings are a dime a dozen, I like JRich, but that 21 year old 7’1” dirty work center would have been a great building block tandem with RWill. We would be set at the bigs. I was even looking forward to them playing together vs other double big line ups, like Bucks and Cavs. You can win with twin tower line ups as much as it’s a 3 point shooting league, who won the title last year by pounding a smaller team in the paint? And the Lakers the year before were at their best with AD at the 4, next to Howard or Gasol. I understand we would all not be so down if Jaylen was healthy, as having a 2 way wing that can defend multiple positions and go for 30 or more on any given night is a real luxury that can mask a lot of deficiencies. Having said that I wholeheartedly agree with dboss on the line up changes and have not given up on 2 J’s.

Marcus Smart has been exposed the most recently during this stretch with no Jaylen. Rondo was a very good athletic role player in a perfect winning situation with 3 HoFers, no way could he come near carrying a team by himself. Smart is so limited offensively without the 2 J’s to carry the team, so he can do less; in his case the perfect scenario for him is less is more.

We're all guessing, of course. We should almost have a contest to see who can come the closest to predicting Celtic moves to come. Who would have guessed we would trade our second-best player when we dealt Big Al in a package for KG?

We can't say anything for certain except that the current roster isn't a finished product. As BobH is fond of saying about such statements, "in other news, water is wet."

If we do deal rather than continue to build, it makes sense to me at least one bigger name will depart. There aren't many players others covet on this squad, so common sense says you're not getting a stud player by dealing a couple of number 14 picks sitting on our bench.

My guess and expectation is that there is no choice but to deal either Brown or Tatum in order to remake the roster into a contender. The only problem is that Brown, being the more likely candidate in my thinking, may have lost value due to his ongoing injury issues. I don't believe Smart brings back enough to be the one to depart, and in the name of defense, that may be OK.

In any case, although I have my guess about who, the when is impossible. I also believe a major bench remake is needed, but that is probably an off-season project when lots of bodies are in motion.

There has been talk year after year about major fireworks and it has never happened. It may be needed, but we'll see if current management has the nerve, and ownership backing, to pull it off. If so, my guess is we limp through this season and at the October '22 opening bell the only sure names returning from this year are Tatum, Smart, and Horford. Strong possibilities to stick might be Williams and Williams. No one else is significant enough to spend much time or concern debating, at least in my mind.

In the meantime, I'll just enjoy watching to see if any of our young players can emerge into something good.

NYCelt wrote:We're all guessing, of course. We should almost have a contest to see who can come the closest to predicting Celtic moves to come. Who would have guessed we would trade our second-best player when we dealt Big Al in a package for KG?

We can't say anything for certain except that the current roster isn't a finished product. As BobH is fond of saying about such statements, "in other news, water is wet."

If we do deal rather than continue to build, it makes sense to me at least one bigger name will depart. There aren't many players others covet on this squad, so common sense says you're not getting a stud player by dealing a couple of number 14 picks sitting on our bench.

My guess and expectation is that there is no choice but to deal either Brown or Tatum in order to remake the roster into a contender. The only problem is that Brown, being the more likely candidate in my thinking, may have lost value due to his ongoing injury issues. I don't believe Smart brings back enough to be the one to depart, and in the name of defense, that may be OK.

In any case, although I have my guess about who, the when is impossible. I also believe a major bench remake is needed, but that is probably an off-season project when lots of bodies are in motion.

There has been talk year after year about major fireworks and it has never happened. It may be needed, but we'll see if current management has the nerve, and ownership backing, to pull it off. If so, my guess is we limp through this season and at the October '22 opening bell the only sure names returning from this year are Tatum, Smart, and Horford. Strong possibilities to stick might be Williams and Williams. No one else is significant enough to spend much time or concern debating, at least in my mind.

In the meantime, I'll just enjoy watching to see if any of our young players can emerge into something good.

https://hardwoodhoudini.com/2021/12/11/boston-celtics-turner-sabonis/


Turner, Damontis Sabonis, Caris LeVert, or T.J. Warren


by Andrew Hughes
21 hours ago


MassLive’s Brian Robb isn’t seeing a path to the Boston Celtics and the Pacers coming to terms on any of the players Indiana is putting on the trade block.

Indy is rallying in the wake of that news, perhaps aiming to right the ship internally as opposed to embracing a rebuild. Whether or not that is the best thing for the franchise’s long-term health is irrelevant.


This sort of inspired run, defiant of all media narratives of where this team should go in the future, might actually be more beneficial. Rick Carlisle’s stock would rise and the group will have overcome adversity and strengthened its closeness for when the games get tighter in the playoffs…something they may not be far from qualifying for.

Of course, this current core’s run is very much on its last legs. Forget the group staying together if they can’t get over their win-less postseason series hump since 2014.

But it may not be time to write them off together. And it very much sounds like the Boston Celtics won’t be a team in the hunt for what the Pacers have to offer at this time.

Robb absolutely sees no way that Turner finally makes his way to Boston at this point, citing a lack of potential rotational synergy with the C’s current big men:


We know the Celtics front office isn’t very high on Myles Turner after the Gordon Hayward sign-and-trade talks years ago. With Robert Williams signed long-term, it’s hard to see them giving anything of value for Turner to share those minutes with Al Horford also under contract.

The wing pair of Caris LeVert and T.J. Warren also doesn’t seem to make sense to MassLive’s Boston Celtics reporter:

Caris LeVert and T.J. Warren are big injury question marks at positions that already have logjams for this Celtics group.

Finally, there is Domantas Sabonis. Undoubtedly he is the most attractive Indiana apple to the eyes of Celtics fans.


Due to his All-Star status–he appears likely for a third straight appearance, especially if the Pacers right the ship–he will probably cost the most. Nekias Duncan believes that conversation starts with Marcus Smart and Robert Williams.

It may require even more than that on Indy’s end.

Due to all of these factors, it appears unlikely that President of Basketball Operations Brad Stevens will pull the trigger on a deal:

The problem for Boston? I’m not sure he’d be worth the trade capital needed to acquire him. Offering up some combination of veteran guards (Marcus Smart, Dennis Schroder, Josh Richardson) probably isn’t going to do anything for a Pacers team trying to build. Meanwhile, Boston’s younger prospects don’t have nearly enough value for a guy like Sabonis…


The Boston Celtics aren’t likely to land Myles Turner, Domantas Sabonis, Caris LeVert, or T.J. Warren from the Indiana Pacers.

The Houdini does expect some moves at the trade deadline. But hoping for anything to go down with the Pacers doesn’t seem like energy well-spent based on Robb’s bearish views on potential deals between the two teams.


Bob
MY NOTE:  We'd all love Sabonis.  Many of us would love LeVert too.  TJ Warren has only played in 4 games this year.  Who would you give up for a player that can't get on the court because of a stress fracture in his left foot?  One of our young'uns, presumably.  Pritchard?  Why?  Why trade a shooter on a rookie contract for a shooter who isn't?  Same with Nesmith.  Romeo?  Ok, but once again, trading a now-healthy defender for a shooter who can't get on the court?

And as far as this author's claim that "We know the Celtics front office isn’t very high on Myles Turner after the Gordon Hayward sign-and-trade talks years ago" let me point out that the guy who wasn't high on Turner is no longer with the Celtics.


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NYCelt wrote:We're all guessing, of course. We should almost have a contest to see who can come the closest to predicting Celtic moves to come. Who would have guessed we would trade our second-best player when we dealt Big Al in a package for KG?

We can't say anything for certain except that the current roster isn't a finished product. As BobH is fond of saying about such statements, "in other news, water is wet."

If we do deal rather than continue to build, it makes sense to me at least one bigger name will depart. There aren't many players others covet on this squad, so common sense says you're not getting a stud player by dealing a couple of number 14 picks sitting on our bench.

My guess and expectation is that there is no choice but to deal either Brown or Tatum in order to remake the roster into a contender. The only problem is that Brown, being the more likely candidate in my thinking, may have lost value due to his ongoing injury issues. I don't believe Smart brings back enough to be the one to depart, and in the name of defense, that may be OK.

In any case, although I have my guess about who, the when is impossible. I also believe a major bench remake is needed, but that is probably an off-season project when lots of bodies are in motion.

There has been talk year after year about major fireworks and it has never happened. It may be needed, but we'll see if current management has the nerve, and ownership backing, to pull it off. If so, my guess is we limp through this season and at the October '22 opening bell the only sure names returning from this year are Tatum, Smart, and Horford. Strong possibilities to stick might be Williams and Williams. No one else is significant enough to spend much time or concern debating, at least in my mind.

In the meantime, I'll just enjoy watching to see if any of our young players can emerge into something good.

Interesting take, Kawhi went thru some injuries with Spurs, he had no problem getting plenty of suitors, ofcourse he already had a championship resume. Jaylen is less accomplished, but a lot younger, if he has a strong 2nd half of the season; I see his value going higher as many even feel he is the equal of Tatum or better. This year we accomplished getting rid of Kemba’s contract, the younger players need more improvement/experience, and Tatum and Brown have to learn to lead and continue to improve. Jordan didn’t win it all until he was 28, as did Lebron. It’s so hard to get these kind of elite players, we have 2. Hopefully Jaylen can get and stay healthy, never a sure thing with this training staff, J’s still have a lot of room for growth.

Domantas Sabonis' salary is $18,500,000 for this season, followed by three more seasons at $18,500,000, $18,500,000 and $19,400,000.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/indiana-pacers/domantas-sabonis-20216/

Al Horford's contract is $27,000,000 for this season and if he gets released prior to next season, he gets a payout of $14,500,000 (I believe that's how it works, please correct me if I am wrong)

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/boston-celtics/al-horford-2199/

The difference is about $8.5M.

We then take Jeremy Lamb and add either Nesmith or Pritchard.



https://fanspo.com/nba/trade-machine

Perhaps we may need to throw in a first round pick and a little cash.

Who agrees with this trade? Probably not Indy, but who knows?

That’s a great trade for us, but why would Indy do it?

cowens/oldschool wrote:That’s a great trade for us, but why would Indy do it?

I said that.  I'm just throwing $hhit on the wall to see what sticks.  I picked Lamb because it was easy to make the salaries equal.  Maybe other people will have additional ideas as to what to add that may be more equal in a Horford - Sabonis swap.

The assumption is that Indy wants a salary dump, re-boot kind of thing.

How about this one:



https://fanspo.com/nba/trade-machine

Again, we may need to throw in a first round pick and a little cash

One other thing to consider when trading with a team that wants to dump salary:

A second trade can be added that just uses one of our TPEs in order to make it more palatable to Indy, or whoever.