Where We're At

If this was a White for Schroder trade we win hands down.  We gave up too much in the trade.  White is an upgrade over DS.  

Now Celtics fans can spend the rest of the season debating who is the better PG, Smart or White.  And by the summer, trade one of them will be the new mantra.

DT was unloaded because the Celtics did not want to pay him $5 million.  Now he is back for $8 milliion and we can talk about his screens but forget that he was always getting whistled for offensive fouls.  Seems like a lot to pay for a 3rd string center.  

This summer will be interesting.  You cannot really build around the Jays if you do not add shooters.

I am really sorry to see Josh gone. He just seemed to “fit” here. It was a move I thought Brad would resist. Now he knows how it feels to give up someone you really do not want to. I am happy to see Theis back, I think it is a good fit. Romeo???? I hope for his sake and change of teams will help him. I think they did all they could to wait it out with him, but the injuries were just too much and he could not be counted on. Right now I feel he is a “soft” player. Hope he toughens up for his sake

All those seats at the end of the bench that are now empty, I would not be surprised to see Hauser given a full contract. The rest? Who knows right now

dboss, we got Josh into an exception. That is how bad he was in Dallas. So why can’t we expect improvement from White if he is playing with the Js?

Are you not happy that one of Nesmith/Pritchard could get the chance to beat the other one out for a spot?

Isn’t Theis an upgrade over Kanter? Also, he enables a Horford trade in the off season.

You want shooting. Well Nesmith may provide that with some consistent minutes.

I’ve always liked Theis too, hated when he left, very good athletic defender at his size for the 4 and 5. He will be able to play well next to RWill and Al. Our bigs just improved, possibly our defense too, a necessity with Embid and Giannis always around the corner. This trade can work well if PP and Nesmith can add their strengths, very big if as loved the tenacity of JRich. White seems like he can do a little of everything, even play 1 or 2. A lot of posters already have him pegged as a starter, the 2 big line up has gotten us off to great defensive starts recently during our turnaround. I’d go with same starting line up, let White earn it, we don’t know how well he fits yet, hopefully this works. Hopefully his defense is near Smart’s or JRich; if it is great, but don’t remember White being near those 2 as a defender. Please prove me wrong.

dboss wrote:Our defense has been rock solid.  The biggest issue has been poor 3 point shooting.  We did nothing at all to address that.  Our wing depth took a hit as well unless we can imagine that Nesmith will all of a sudden begin to play basketball at an acceptable level.

Theis is an upgrade over Freedom but with Rob and AH manning the front line I do not see how his value meets his salary.  Theis is also another horrible shooter from deep (29.1%) on the year.  He is averaging 22 MPG so as his minutes go down so will his production.

We basically added a combo guard that is not a very good shooter.  36.6%, 34.4% and 31.4% this year on 5.3 attempts.  You gotta be kidding me.

These moves make us slightly better on defense mostly because freedom was really bad but our offense may be even worse.

             
         Ime coached White, so I have to believe he had a say in this. I doubted him before and I'm a big Richardson fan,but I'm starting to believe he knows what he's doing.Schroeder had to go, so I guess they needed a distributor. White  was passing out 5.6 dimes a game with a poor shooting team, and I read that he has one of the best assist to turnover ratios in the league. He's making pretty good money, and he's signed up for three or four more years , so they must like him.

jrleftfoot wrote:

dboss wrote:Our defense has been rock solid.  The biggest issue has been poor 3 point shooting.  We did nothing at all to address that.  Our wing depth took a hit as well unless we can imagine that Nesmith will all of a sudden begin to play basketball at an acceptable level.

Theis is an upgrade over Freedom but with Rob and AH manning the front line I do not see how his value meets his salary.  Theis is also another horrible shooter from deep (29.1%) on the year.  He is averaging 22 MPG so as his minutes go down so will his production.

We basically added a combo guard that is not a very good shooter.  36.6%, 34.4% and 31.4% this year on 5.3 attempts.  You gotta be kidding me.

These moves make us slightly better on defense mostly because freedom was really bad but our offense may be even worse.

             
         Ime coached White, so I have to believe he had a say in this. I doubted him before and I'm a big Richardson fan,but I'm starting to believe he knows what he's doing.Schroeder had to go, so I guess they needed a distributor. White  was passing out 5.6 dimes a game with a poor shooting team, and I read that he has one of the best assist to turnover ratios in the league. He's making pretty good money, and he's signed up for three or four more years , so they must like him.

I was reading on CelticsBlog and some Spurs fans came by to comment. They said that White is a fan fav and we're gonna love him. He plays the right way, the ball doesn't stick, etc.

I read earlier that at times, White drives into double teams, and at other times he has a hard time getting a good shot off after contact. That sounds a little bit like our own super-star, at times.

Good point, bobh, about White and Theis. We have two "new" guys that are not going to take weeks/months/years to fit into the system and not hit the ground running. It's still Moving Day at the Masters for the Celtics.

Well, we certainly were busy on the last day of Trade Day. Far more than everyone else.

As far as the elephant in the room trade, this will finally prove beyond a shadow that James Harden is the problem. Which he shouldn't be, but he is. It's all between his ears. Every franchise, let me repeat that, EVERY franchise he has gone to since Day One has come up short and he leaves in a mess. Nothing has changed. Nothing will change. By the end of next season when PHI has lost these playoffs to the Bucks and next season's playoffs to us, Harden will be shipped mercilessly to Sacramento and that will be the end of the James Harden era. Something like that.

The sad things is, he's a great player. There's just something between the ears that hasn't connected all these years. And like the player BKN traded for, BS is Harden, Jr. At least BS has already admitted he has problems, although let's see how quickly it takes for his "issues" to mysteriously disappear now that he's in BKN. I'm going to seriously doubt anything will change.
I think those two just went from the frying pan into the fire. No, very sure. We'll see.

db

I’m sure yesterday was the starting point for a work in progress. There should be much more to come.

Those of us that thought the starting 5 looked OK, but the bench needed a complete overhaul got to see a good share of the woeful bench disappear. Once the reported Smart trade to Atlanta fell through it looked like the first 5 would remain through this season. I think the short term result of yesterday’s trading is a slightly weaker team, however. Bench scoring is needed and it appears the first two off the bench the rest of this season are White and Theis. For a team fairly strong on defense, and in need of improved scoring, that’s a pretty poor two to add to the rotation.

White’s contract may keep him here for a while. He may be OK to spell Smart and maintain a tight defense. Theis gets what is probably a couple of months to visit his old team before going back overseas or retiring. He’s a likable hard worker but not at the level needed behind RWIII and Horford.

Overall, it looks like Stevens and Co. overpaid for White and shortened the bench. Spots will need to be filled from the Land of Misfit Toys floating around. If adding from Maine, you’re left with the likes of Hauser. In order to get even a little excited by that, I think I would need a serious prescription for something that makes you see shooting stars and flying unicorns.

We knew a re-worked bench was one way to get more competitive, and to their credit it looks like the front office has started down that path. It does look like they must be throwing the towel in on getting anywhere this season, which seems wise. My concerns are they haven’t addressed the bench needs to improve the offense and they’ve left the team with perhaps 6 solid NBA talents for now. One of those aging out fast. I think they’ve overpaid for what they acquired to an almost embarrassing degree.

It’s a long game to get where the team needs to go and it’s only the 1st inning, but I’m calling it three up and three down, striking out the side for the Celtics yesterday. Hopefully it’s just a slow start and they pick up momentum by the 9th. Too soon to judge beyond that, but crossing my fingers a lot tighter.

Hi,
That was very interesting day. Jury is still out on the outcome.
Meanwhile, what's the deal with 11 players? Isn't it supposed to be at least 13? When and who will be those two?

AK

Where we're at is waiting for players to be waived before seeing what we will have going into the playoffs.

We will have to add a couple players for tonight's game, but they can be on 10 day contracts, which run out.  In that way, we can bide our time and add players later on that actually fill a hole that needs filling.

I am not ready to throw in the towel on this season.

https://sports.yahoo.com/celtics-trade-josh-richardson-spurs-195005294.html



Celtics trade Josh Richardson to Spurs for Derrick White


Kurt Helin
Thu, February 10, 2022, 11:50 AM·2 min read


The Celtics got a good player in this trade: Derrick White has been a solid starter with the Spurs for a few seasons now. He’s averaging 14.4 points a game, plays good defense, and while he may not be a great 3-point shooter he plays a high IQ game and stays within himself.


That, however, was not the primary reason the Celtics traded Josh Richardson. It was about the money. Shams Charania of The Athletic broke the trade.


Officially, the Spurs get Richardson, Romeo Langford, and the Celtics’ 2022 first-round pick, which is top-four protected, so it almost certainly conveys this season. The Celtics get White.


Boston moved just under the luxury tax line earlier in the day, with the salary dump trade of P.J. Dozier and Bol Bol to Orlando. This trade moves them even further below the tax line, about $3 million. It’s not just the money saved that benefits teams, the way the system works is the money teams in the tax — Warriors, Nets, Lakers, etc. — pay out is divided among the teams not in the tax. There are no final numbers yet, but teams expect about a $10 million payout for being under the tax line. Boston just picked up a nice chunk of cash.

And White, who is solid. Don’t sleep on that.

The price for this was the Celtics’ first-round pick. While that is top-four protected, right now that pick would be 18th, so let’s say it will convey this season. The Spurs picked up a couple of first-rounders on deadline day, they also acquired the Raptors’ first-rounder helping them get under the tax line.


Bob
MY NOTE:  And White, who is solid. Don’t sleep on that.  I'm not going to judge Derrick White too quickly, he is entitled to some time to get his feet under him in Boston, but I'm hopeful. If nothing else he's more likely to get the ball out of the J's hands so they can do what they should be doing and that's moving without the ball.

It looks like Brad is getting the old gang back together.  Theis, whom he loved, is back. And now he's bringing Ime and assistant coach Will Hardy back together with White.  Hardy, specifically, worked extensively with White in San Antonio and so they know each other real well already. That has to be a plus. He already brought back Horford, whom he loved, but that might have been a "we need to unload Kemba's contract" as much as anything, but he loved Horford.



.

I'm going all-in on IT!!

db

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/derrick-white-bring-celtics-chris-234206604.html


What can Derrick White bring to Celtics? Chris Forsberg explains


Justin Leger
Thu, February 10, 2022, 3:42 PM



The Boston Celtics played to their strengths with their trade deadline addition of Derrick White.


The veteran guard reportedly was acquired from the San Antonio Spurs in exchange for Josh Richardson, Romeo Langford, a 2022 first-round pick protected 1-4, and the right to swap first-round picks in 2018. That's a hefty price to pay, but White's presence improves an already-elite Boston defense.

What C's fans should know about Derrick White after reported trade
The 27-year-old can also provide some scoring and playmaking off the bench. Through 49 games this season in San Antonio, he averaged 14.4 points, 5.6 assists and 3.5 rebounds.

Our Chris Forsberg shared his thoughts on the deal during NBC Sports Boston's Celtics Trade Deadline Special.

"Outside of the (James) Harden and (Ben) Simmons swap, I felt like Derrick White was one of the best players that was out there," Forsberg said. "The Celtics got the best player in all their dealings. Now, will it translate? He's gotta come in here and do it, and he's gonna find a new role probably because he's probably going to be coming off the bench. But his elite defense and the way he can take on the challenge -- like, you go back and rewind the tape, he was defending Jayson Tatum at the end of games, he's picked up (Devin) Booker. He is not afraid to take on those challenges, and so that will fit perfectly. He's going to earn Ime Udoka's confidence immediately out of the gate.

"The only thing I'm leery about with this deal is that they did have to give up a first-round pick to make it happen. Maybe that doesn't matter. Maybe the Celtics are just banking on, 'alright, we've got our core, we've got our pieces, we're just building around them, we still have salary to make deals.' But any time you have to give up a first-round pick I get a little bit uneasy. ... It's weird to say, but 2028 draft swap, we'll probably be driving around in flying cars by then, but it might still matter because we have no idea how good these teams are going to be at that point."

That wasn't the C's only move of the day. Just before the 3 p.m. ET deadline, they sent Dennis Schroder, Enes Freedom, and Bruno Fernando to the Houston Rockets for old friend Daniel Theis. They end the day with five open roster spots.


Bob
MY NOTE:  "The Celtics got the best player in all their dealings."  Schroder and Enes for Theis, and Theis is the best player in that trade?

.

bobheckler wrote:
MY NOTE:  "The Celtics got the best player in all their dealings."  Schroder and Enes for Theis, and Theis is the best player in that trade?

Bob,

I'm not sure of your meaning and don't want to put words in your mouth, but it appears you're questioning how Theis is better than Schroder and/or Enes. If so I would agree.

My son's comment on yesterday's action was "The Celtics are making it awfully hard to stay a fan." Fortunately, I've got him since the deal is I don't pay for college if he goes back to rooting for the Lakers.

I find it questionable if the Celtics got the best player in either deal. It appears Richardson is the better offensive option, White is reportedly stronger on D. Possibly a draw there. Theis? Better than either player dealt for him? Sorry, but overall, no. I'll give him the defensive edge over Enes, but just that one skill.

What the team did manage to do, despite saying they wanted to cut financial obligations, was stick themselves with multi-year deals for both White and Theis. Theis did shave a little off what he could get comped in bonus money to help out; I don't doubt his team spirit. But sticking ourselves with two multi-year deals that aren't terribly cheap? For the bench? That throws me more than anything.

Early in the game, so hard for me to throw daggers. We'll see where it goes post-season.

Regards

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/02/11/sports/celtics-trade-exceptions/



Celtic create five trade exceptions with deadline deals


By Adam Himmelsbach Globe Staff,Updated February 11, 2022, 20 minutes ago




Daniel Theis is back with the Celtics.MATT SLOCUM/ASSOCIATED PRESS



The Celtics created five new trade exceptions after sending out Dennis Schroder, Enes Freedom, Bruno Fernando, P.J. Dozier and Bol Bol in deals on Thursday, according to a league source.

Trade exceptions are valid for one year and they allow teams to acquire players without sending out matching salary in return.

The Celtics used the $9.7 million exception that they created by trading Tristan Thompson to the Kings last summer in order to acquire Daniel Theis from the Rockets, the source said. That exception was set to expire this summer.

By taking this approach, new exceptions were created by sending Schroder, Freedom and Fernando to Houston. Also, Boston created exceptions when it sent Bol Bol and P.J. Dozier to the Magic.


Schroder’s contract created a $6 million trade exception, and the other four are each worth less than $2.5 million.

The Celtics could have done the same when they traded Josh Richardson to the Spurs in exchange for Derrick White on Thursday. They had an option of using their $17.1 million exception — created when they traded Evan Fournier to the Knicks last year — to acquire White, thus creating a new $12.3 million Richardson exception that could be used through next season’s trade deadline.

But the source said the team decided to hang onto the larger $17.1 million exception that is set to expire in August rather than adding a smaller exception that will last longer.

These exceptions will all be valid through next season’s trade deadline, giving Boston some extra time and material to work with.


Bob
MY NOTE:  A player that's good enough for another team to want them, but be so cheap you need to sweeten the pot with a $2.5M TPE is also the type of player a team would want to keep.  Valuable and cheap.  And remember, you cannot combine TPEs, so you can't combine the two $2.5M TPEs and make a single $5M one.  So I'm not that confident we're going to be using both of those TPEs.  Maybe one.

A $6M TPE is nice.  It's big enough that you can land a definite upgrade at a position using it.  The $17M Fournier exemption is the Grandaddy of TPEs.  I can be broken up into multiple trades and is certainly big enough, if combined with a medium sized salary, to swing for the fences.

.

The more I read about White the more I like this deal. I liked JRich and was a Romeo supporter, but I remember just a few weeks ago we were lamenting the absence for a true point guard. Since then Smart has dramatically improved his play as PG, maybe because he had to sit for a few games and see what happened when the ball sticks. But with Schroder headed out the door sooner or later White looks to be the perfect replacement. And it seems obvious that Ime would just as soon not have any non-defenders on the floor. And much as I liked Enes for his personality, I think Theis is clearly an upgrade. As for how guys were playing before the trade, particularly their shooting %, I think we have to factor in what happens when a guy plays for a bad team. I seem to remember the knock on JRich when we got him was that his shooting was down. But playing with a couple attention grabbing players can cure some shooting problems for those around them.

atcross wrote:The more I read about White the more I like this deal. I liked JRich and was a Romeo supporter, but I remember just a few weeks ago we were lamenting the absence for a true point guard. Since then Smart has dramatically improved his play as PG, maybe because he had to sit for a few games and see what happened when the ball sticks. But with Schroder headed out the door sooner or later White looks to be the perfect replacement. And it seems obvious that Ime would just as soon not have any non-defenders on the floor. And much as I liked Enes for his personality, I think Theis is clearly an upgrade. As for how guys were playing before the trade, particularly their shooting %, I think we have to factor in what happens when a guy plays for a bad team. I seem to remember the knock on JRich when we got him was that his shooting was down. But playing with a couple attention grabbing players can cure some shooting problems for those around them.

+1

Here's Dejounte Murray's reaction to the news his teammate, Derrick White, had been traded away.

Dejounte Murray
@DejounteMurray

https://twitter.com/i/status/1491844825078972419


This should make Celtic fans feel better about this trade.


Bob


.

prakash wrote:Trader Brad?  I am getting excited.

Three capable big men to pound Embiid!  White is an upgrade over Richardson.  Payton Prichard and Nesmith lining up for playing time.  Possibility of getting Dragic in buyout?

The Celts got better for this year and have a good thing going forward.  Thankfully, the season will become fun.

                I thought of Drajic too.

prakash wrote:dboss, we got Josh into an exception. That is how bad he was in Dallas. So why can’t we expect improvement from White if he is playing with the Js?

Are you not happy that one of Nesmith/Pritchard could get the chance to beat the other one out for a spot?

Isn’t Theis an upgrade over Kanter?  Also, he enables a Horford trade in the off season.

You want shooting. Well Nesmith may provide that with some consistent minutes.

Prak

I am looking at the entire package.

We should not expect (assume) anything.  What I do know is that moving both Josh and Langford for White is a wash at best (neutral impact) Including a 2022 1st round pick top 4 protected is asinine.  White has already hit his ceiling.  He is not going to get any better.  At the very least if you are going to protect a 1st round pick THIS YEAR,  it would need to at the very least track with our expected record.  So maybe top 14-16 protected.  Top 4 is totally meaningless.  We already have a quality starting PG in Smart so the need for another starting level point guard is pointless unless you trade Smart this summer.  Whatever, White is not likely to morph into a great knock down shooter.  Being on the Celtics does not improve his ability to be a reliable shooter.  SA runs a very discipline and precise offense.  They have always been a team that moves the basketball to open shooters.  

To be clear, I am not saying that White is not a quality player.  What I am saying is that we gave up too much to get him.  

Let's dig a little deeper.  Josh has been a very productive player this year.  He is a Guard/Wing guy with a defensive rating of 106.3.  White is also a good defender with a defensive rating of 106.7.  Josh has a 6' 10 inch wing so he can switch off on SF.  White has a 6' 7" wing and he is no Marcus Smart level defender.  Josh has a 3.6 net rating, while White has a 1.4 net rating.  Romeo has not been much of a factor but he does play defense (103.6  defensive rating)

This is clearly not a win for the Celtics when you squander a first rounder on top of what was already a fair deal.

I really do not want to hear much about Daniel Theis.

Brad Steven has brought the band back together.  First Horford and now Theis.   Both of them are playing out of tune.  They got No rhythm, no beat and no 3 point shot.

Did you know that over the past 3 years Robert Williams has played more games than Daniel Theis?  Imagine that.  Is he an upgrade over Freedom? Probably yes but his contract for a BU center is obnoxious.  ($8.2 million this year and then $8.6 and then $9.1)  In 2024-25 we got a $9.5 million team option.  So good luck moving him before then.  Brad will have to throw in another first rounder.  No GM is going to pay him that much as a BU given his very limited game.  https://www.spotrac.com/nba/rankings/2021-22/base/center/

We have suffered greatly this year because our top guys have struggled shooting the 3 ball.  If there was one single need for this team today and in the future it would be the need to add one or more reliable deep shooters.  

We did not do that.  Why would anybody envision that Nesmith will be a knock down shooter for us.  He has a few glitches in his shot and that is why he keeps missing. He really needs tons and tons of off season reps to get it right. As of today our depth at the wing position is more suspect than it was on the first game of the season.  Who is our BU SG and who is our BU SF?  

We burned away what little depth we had.

Hi,
Here's the missing two players: https://www.yahoo.com/sports/woj-boston-celtics-signing-sam-195721501.html
Brad decided to not wait for buyout season.

AK

Sorry dboss, we are on different planets.

Josh was washed up.  Dumped by Philly and by the Mavs.  He got better here because of what was surrounding him.  His defensive rating is more a factor of playing against bench players.  White's defensive rating is as a starter.  Plus, I did not like his ponderous style.  Did you notice how much time he needed to get his shot off?  When he drove to the basket, how many good passes did you see?

As for the picks, we want them but we can't really invest in developing them.  We have developed Tatum, Brown, RWill and Smart.  Perhaps Langford will become a good player but since the beginning of the season I have been saying that the Celts have to decide: win or develop players.  Players develop faster on bad teams.  Invest in developing players and the Js may get turned off.

Would you have traded Josh, Langford, 2022 1st and a 2028 pick swap for Marcus Smart?  I guess that is the litmus test.

As for Horford, are you really complaining about trading away Kemba?  And for Theis, what did we have to have a chance of preventing Embiid just eating us up for breakfast.

As for Nesmith, would you have preferred that the Celts kept Langford and traded Nesmith?  You are professing the value of 1st round picks.  There are two on the roster right now.  Should we invest in them?

We would have done well to get another star/super star although how?  Otherwise, Brad seems to have made some nice moves.  I am hoping that they work out.

White's a keeper, in my opinion. I read an article saying that he lacked athleticism ( the only truly negative review of the trade I have seen.) The writer could never have watched the guy.Reading stats rarely, if ever, tell the whole story. This unathletic guy blocks 7 footers at the rim and can take the ball coast to coast and score, or make the pocket pass. I'm not going to tell anybody else what to think, but I expect some posters are going to be surprised at how good this guy is. I loved JRich, but you have to give value to receive value. Theis is excellent on thr PNR,or at least he was when he was with the Celts. Schorder had no future here, and wasn't a true point guard as far s distributing the rock. White is. I expect a lot of Celtic fans will be pleasantly surprised .For the naysayers, take heart. Luke Kornet is back to replace the 3 point shooting of Enes and Bruno.

For the statistically minded, JR's lifetime 3 point percentage is 35.8. White's is 35.7. Richardson averages a 3 point attempt per game more than White throughout their careers , which is natural, given that White has gotten the majority of his minutes at the point. White'a assist percentage of 25.2 dwarfs JRich's of 9.0, also partially explained by their varying roles.

prakash wrote:Sorry dboss, we are on different planets.

Josh was washed up.  Dumped by Philly and by the Mavs.  He got better here because of what was surrounding him.  His defensive rating is more a factor of playing against bench players.  White's defensive rating is as a starter.  Plus, I did not like his ponderous style.  Did you notice how much time he needed to get his shot off?  When he drove to the basket, how many good passes did you see?

As for the picks, we want them but we can't really invest in developing them.  We have developed Tatum, Brown, RWill and Smart.  Perhaps Langford will become a good player but since the beginning of the season I have been saying that the Celts have to decide: win or develop players.  Players develop faster on bad teams.  Invest in developing players and the Js may get turned off.

Would you have traded Josh, Langford, 2022 1st and a 2028 pick swap for Marcus Smart?  I guess that is the litmus test.

As for Horford, are you really complaining about trading away Kemba?  And for Theis, what did we have to have a chance of preventing Embiid just eating us up for breakfast.

As for Nesmith, would you have preferred that the Celts kept Langford and traded Nesmith?  You are professing the value of 1st round picks.  There are two on the roster right now.  Should we invest in them?

We would have done well to get another star/super star although how?  Otherwise, Brad seems to have made some nice moves.  I am hoping that they work out.

I'm on earth. What planet are you on.

I am going to respond in detail to your response after I get back from the pizza shop.